Veterans Affairs Committee on Dec. 6th, 2016

[Michel Doiron, Assistant Deputy Minister, Service Delivery Branch, Department of Veterans Affairs]

We have no opening remarks, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Okay. We'll start off with six minutes.

Mr. Brassard.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

I want to deal with the issue of suicide—let's get that right out there—in terms of what the department does to monitor those veterans post-release. What are you doing in terms of preventing suicide among our veterans? It's becoming a real issue and there are a lot of reasons for it. This committee right now is hearing about that, so I'd like to ask you that.

[Michel Doiron]

Maybe I'll start.

First, we want to acknowledge that, as the minister said, one suicide is one too many. We actually take that very seriously, understanding that it does occur. The department has a whole range of mental health services, and I believe I'm here Thursday with Dr. Courchesne to talk about mental health and suicide.

We have a whole range of services for mental health issues available to our veterans, whether in our operational stress injury clinics or some of our apps. We have apps that are available on mental health and first aid. We have 4,000 mental health professionals across the country. Because we don't have an office in every town and we don't have an OSI clinic in every location, we do have contracts with professionals in the field to help veterans. We also have a 1-800 number—and I'm giving you the short version—where there's somebody on the phone seven days a week, 24 hours a day, and they can get counselling very quickly.

However, the important part is for veterans to come forward. We know in Canada that at Veterans Affairs we have 200,000 clients, and approximately 130,000 are veterans. The reality is that we have 10,000 who are case managed, and those we really know and we follow them very closely. But there is a whole segment, between 130,000 and 670,000, who don't come to see us. We don't know who they are. When they come forward, we're there to help them, but they have to come forward for help, even if it's not service related. We always talk about the service relationship. They can use the 1-800 number whether it's service related or not. They can get 20 sessions with a psychiatrist or psychologist very quickly, regardless of whether the injury was service related or not, but it's important for them to come forward.

To your question, your point, of what we are doing for all veterans, we're not tracking all veterans but we are tracking those 10,000 who are case managed, and to a certain extent, the 130,000 veterans we have and 60,000 survivors.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

With respect to the opening of the offices, then, the latest VAC offices, what is the ratio? I know that the minister, when he discussed it, said 25:1 was optimal. What are you seeing in terms of the uptake to those veterans offices that have been reopened, regarding the number of veterans who are coming in? What are you seeing on that?

[Michel Doiron]

Presently, across the country we are running at 30:1. We're not quite at 25:1. We received the money in July. We are presently staffing the positions.

I forget who asked the question earlier, but the offices are not all staffed up. We opened Saskatoon last week or the week before, so for sure we're not at a full complement yet, but we are staffing that up.

There is an update. In every office where we've added or reopened, there are a certain number of people who are case managed and/or veterans who are managed, not case managed. We're there to provide them services. That's why the offices are not all the same size, because the number of veterans served by the offices are different. The Kelowna catchment basin is not the same size as is Sydney. The size will change the number of employees that you have.

In the case of Sydney, as an example, we were open about a week before the official opening. We actually had three veterans show up at the door for support the same morning we opened our doors. The veterans are coming forward. They do not have to come to an office; that's where we try to be clear. We provide services in all kinds of ways, but for those who prefer the in-person touch they are coming forward.

As to the exact amount of traffic in the offices, I don't have that in front of me but I can probably get that. There is traffic at all of these offices, but we have to remember that case managers will often go to the person's house. For instance, an occupational therapist or a nurse who works in the office will actually go to a person's house. The veteran doesn't need to come to us.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Can I ask you something with respect to that?

I recently visited a base, and one of the things I heard was that there is a 10-day pre-requirement on the part of VAC to give approval for a VAC case manager to visit veterans. Can you clarify that for me?

[Michel Doiron]

Absolutely, I can clarify that.

There is not a 10-day wait. They have a blanket travel authority to travel within their catchment location or their area of responsibility. If it is outside of that, they have the authority to go if it's an emergency without waiting for any time, but all case managers and nurses have a blanket travel authority. Their job is to get out. If you're not a nurse or a case manager, you may have to go to your supervisor and get it authorized, or if it's something that's not part of your normal duties, you may have to get it authorized. However, 10 days would be an extreme.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

Ms. Lockhart.

[Alaina Lockhart, Liberal, Fundy Royal, NB]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Doiron, for being here today.

I want to talk about the offices a little more and about staffing. We've had quite a bit of conversation about the staffing of these offices, where we are as far as numbers are concerned and that sort of thing. Can you tell us, relative to the targets, where we are? What's the status of this?

[Michel Doiron]

We actually have 32 of 79 warm bodies, people, working in the offices as of today. We have to bear in mind that two offices were only open on November 30, but 32 of 79 new people are actually in the offices providing services. An office like Corner Brook or Sydney has more people because it's been going longer. An office like Kelowna has fewer people. I don't have the individual office breakdown. I can get that; it's just that I don't have it with me.

[Alaina Lockhart, Liberal, Fundy Royal, NB]

Okay.

Are you having any challenges staffing those offices depending on the region or how rural they are, and that sort of thing?

[Michel Doiron]

The issues we have are more regional than rural versus urban. Although we hear about the economics out west, we've been more challenged to get some of our case managers out west than we have out east. If I look at my ratio of veterans per case manager, I see it is better in the east than it is in the west. Some of that is demographic and some of that is just the employment. Some provinces have very competitive salary ranges. In the east, federal job salaries are quite competitive. As you move westward, some provinces pay their nurses better than other ones. Therefore, when we try to recruit case managers and/or medical experts it's a bit more challenging.

We have hired people in every region. We have hired people in every office. I can tell you in the case of Halifax, which is not a new office, I'm very close to my 25:1 today, as opposed to a Vancouver office or a Victoria office, where I'm not there due to more buoyancy in the system and that it's a bit more difficult to attract or to keep.

[Alaina Lockhart, Liberal, Fundy Royal, NB]

In the testimony that we had during our service delivery review, there was an anecdotal comment about requiring a master's degree to be a front-line worker. I would like to get clarification on that, because the other thing we are hearing is that veterans certainly appreciate dealing with veterans and that sometimes understanding the military and how things work is as valuable as anything.

Could you speak to that?

[Michel Doiron]

Thank you for the question.

No, you do not need a master's to work at Veterans Affairs. The level of qualification will depend on the position you are going after. If we are hiring a nurse, you need a nursing degree. You need your bachelor's in nursing. If you are going for a case manager, we accept a bachelor's—we do accept a master's, absolutely—but what we are asking for is experience in case management. You have to have taken case management.

We have a whole series of positions—we call them veteran service agents—that do not require education to that level, where we do look at hiring more of our veterans. I have to be careful, because veterans are very well educated. A military nurse, we'd love to have. The VSAs, the veteran service agents, are not case managers, and they don't have the same education.

It all depends on which position we are trying to fill. It varies.

[Alaina Lockhart, Liberal, Fundy Royal, NB]

Do we have targets for the number of veterans we are hiring?

[Michel Doiron]

We have no clear target yet, but the minister is challenging us to come up with a clear target. I don't know if my colleague would like to talk about hiring.

[Bernard Butler, Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy and Commemoration, Department of Veterans Affairs]

Thank you.

In response to that query.... As you know, this has become an important issue for the government, and certainly for the Department of Veterans Affairs, to the point that the department has actually established a veterans hiring unit in our human resource area. It is being led by a veteran who has now taken on the task of being responsible for reaching out to other government departments and establishing an information base to enable those departments to facilitate the employment of veterans.

We have not established fixed targets yet for our department, but I think it's very clear that our minister and our deputy minister are looking for higher numbers in employment, so you'll begin to see performance reporting on that coming in the following months. It's a very aggressive, very committed plan right now to try to increase the number of veterans in our department and in the public service as a whole.

[Alaina Lockhart, Liberal, Fundy Royal, NB]

Can you just clarify? Are you saying that it's an initiative of your department to start reaching out to other departments to start encouraging...? Did I hear you right?

[Bernard Butler]

What we want to do, in response to that question, is basically establish Veterans Affairs as a centre of excellence, if you will, in terms of helping veterans and helping other departments in the exercise.

What we have learned over the last year or so is that there are many challenges for veterans who are trying to come into the public service. Those challenges can be in trying to equate skill sets that they have developed in the military and translate those skill sets to civilian employment. Some of the challenges can be as simple as, “How do I compete in a competition process in the public service?” The military promotional scheme is quite different from that in the public service.

What we are trying to do is develop a centre of excellence in this area that, at the end of the day, will help facilitate the hiring of veterans right across the public service, as well as in our own department.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

Ms. Mathyssen, go ahead.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here. I appreciate the filling information that you are able to provide.

Recently, I received a response to an Order Paper question that I asked with regard to the number of claims for service from VAC made by veterans who have service-related injuries due to sexual harassment and sexual trauma. The answer I received was that neither VAC nor VRAB tracked this particular information. They don't track the data.

I wonder why not. If you don't track the cause of an injury, are you not creating gaps in the services that you can provide?

[Michel Doiron]

You are correct. We do not track the cause of the injury. We track what the injury is. For us, it's not what caused it. I want to be very careful. We've been working very closely with “It's Just 700” and we take this extremely seriously. We're talking to them so our adjudicators have a better understanding of sexual trauma. Our doctors are very well aware, and we're working with them to put something on our website.

But the reality is that when it comes to the adjudication process, for us it's “Is it service-related?” We have to ensure the service relationship, but we have to acknowledge that sexual trauma of all sorts happens on the base, happens on exercises. To us that's a service relationship, but for us what's more important is what the injury is and to treat the injury. Often they come to us as mental health injuries. There are two or three different types that we see more often. Like I say, our adjudicators are working with “It's Just 700” to better understand this, but that's what we track, not the cause.

I know you may say it's not quite the same thing, but if you fall off a truck and you hurt your back, or you parachute jump and you hurt your back, for us the issue is that you have a bad back. When it comes to sexual trauma, there has been an event, and we don't care if the person has been charged or not. If it's been documented and the doctor is telling us you have a diagnosis for this, you will receive the treatment and you will receive the disability award or disability pension to which you are entitled. We don't track many of the causes. We track what the injury is, and then what we are doing to help the veteran.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay, thank you. I was a bit alarmed by the response that there was no information about the number of claims. To me, that set off a red light. This is something very serious, and I wanted to be sure that the attention it needed was there. I thank you for your answer.

[Michel Doiron]

To the entire committee, please be assured that we take this extremely seriously. The main group working on this, the “It's Just 700” group, have been to our stakeholder conferences. They are part of my service excellence advisory group. She, the person leading this group, sits on this to make sure that we understand it. I do not want in any way to downplay this. We take this very seriously.