Evidence of meeting #40 for Veterans Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was training.
A recording is available from Parliament.
February 6th, 2017 / 4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK
Thank you both so much for being here. You speak so articulately and so honestly and passionately about these issues. The longer we question, the more it brings up the fact again to me that we can make all kinds of recommendations, but if the culture is the culture, those recommendations probably aren't going to get very far. I'm being very blunt and honest here.
Retaliation for reporting, the fear of the responses that you're going to receive, and the actual things that are happening clearly make it very difficult for the people to come forward. If I were the minister alone in a room with you, what would you say absolutely and honestly needs to be done before any of these other steps can truly make an impact?
4:25 p.m.
Founder, It's Just 700
We need more women in the military, because the more we have, the more secure we feel to report. You realize that when it's a male-dominated area, women seem to be in self-preservation mode.
I did it myself. Somebody came to me once and said that something had happened, and I said, “Well, I'm not going to back you up because if I back you up, I'm going to be put in the same position as you.” I didn't want to be seen this way. However, if women are at 50% or 40%, they will feel more confident. They don't have to be in self-preservation mode and show that “she is like this, but I'm not like her, and I'm with you guys”, and that kind of thing. You're using that defence mechanism less.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
4:25 p.m.
As an Individual
It's hard to say.
If I were to address these issues, I would not be speaking to the Minister of Veterans Affairs but to the associate minister of National Defence, which is the capacity that could have an impact on this.
Within the serving military, values are, I believe, shifting. I think that's more a generational thing of Canadian society shifting, but again, I'm a full-time police officer, so I know how much awful stuff is happening out there too.
I don't believe there is going to be a 100% fix on this; however, I don't have one single piece of advice that I could give on this. If you're speaking specifically to military sexual trauma, I'm woefully underequipped to speak to that.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK
Okay. I appreciate what you're saying.
Marie, you had mentioned that there wasn't information on the VAC website. I want to get this straight. Had you made a recommendation for it to happen?
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
4:25 p.m.
Founder, It's Just 700
Yes. I guess I've been told that they will look into it. I was contacted by somebody about four months ago, but then that was it. I never heard back afterwards.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK
Okay. I'm just not understanding why it's not happening. There's not a huge expense involved in any way.
4:25 p.m.
Founder, It's Just 700
What I've been told is that the services are for everybody, so we shouldn't have to....
For me, it's more like an equity-equality kind of thing, right? Equal doesn't mean equity—
4:25 p.m.
Founder, It's Just 700
—so I think there should be a little bit more push, especially when all the pictures and all the information out there obviously don't target a 19-year-old woman, right?
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK
Exactly. Okay, thank you.
Mr. Fraser talked a little bit about the dynamics of training and equipping. You mentioned lay people.
I get really excited about all these situations of veterans helping veterans and soldiers helping soldiers and that type of thing. Clearly we hear a lot about the trust issue, and that is strongest among your peers.
Would it be effective, then, for VAC to try to implement these things or for VAC to be equipping and recognizing and facilitating these groups that are out there in a more...? No. As soon as you become organized, you start to put all kinds of conditions on things, and we don't want that because clearly it's more effective without them.
How I ever got into government, I have no idea.
However, can you see a framework for this? What would work best?
4:30 p.m.
As an Individual
The ones who proactively care about their fellow vets will just step up and do it with the best we've got.
If you're walking down the street and you see someone get hit by a car, most people are going to run to help them in some way. Someone who knows first aid CPR is probably going to be more effective than someone who doesn't. A lot of workplaces offer first aid CPR training for free or else subsidize it. I'm not saying that VAC needs to create tiger teams of people, cells reaching out to vets that have a quota, such as cold-calling 60 vets a day to see how they're doing, or what have you. Just fund this training; those who care about it and want it will step up. Yes, a rate of return is going to be difficult to gauge, particularly because the metrics here are going to be things that don't happen, and it's tough to prove a negative. It will be hard to show vets that never do reach crisis because someone helps them in time. It's hard to count suicides that don't happen.
I don't know if that could be easily quantified, the way the government and departments like to quantify things. At the same time, this isn't particularly expensive training either. In mental health first aid, as I said, already a product has been developed for the veterans community, so push that more aggressively, assist training, and apply suicide intervention training.
Again, get that out there. We've got these things; if you want to take them, if you served or worked with vets in some capacity, come on out.
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis
Thank you.
Mr. Graham is next. I guess you'll be splitting with Mr. Eyolfson.
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC
I have a couple of quick questions. I just joined this committee last week, so I'm new to the file and I find it interesting, and not necessarily in a positive way. I appreciate your coming and telling your stories.
Brian, you served in Afghanistan. I'm not sure of your history in operations. Can you talk about what transition you got when you left? What did happen? When you come back from Afghanistan, is it welcome home and have a nice day, or what's the process?
4:30 p.m.
As an Individual
I left Afghanistan on March 24, or something like that, in 2009. We flew, briefly, through a staging base in the Middle East and turned in our guns, our ammunition, and all the fighting kit that we had. A bunch of our stuff went into boxes to get shipped home. They put us on a military airbus and we flew to Cyprus, where the Canadian Forces had contracted a hotel.
In that hotel we had the day we got there, three full days, and then the day we left. The first full day was a full day of mandatory briefings on various mental health and readaptation things. The second day was a half day of that and then a half day just to go and do your own thing. The third day was a full day of do your own thing.
Every two days a new batch would arrive—a plane full of soldiers—and a new batch would leave, which turned this thing into pure anarchy. Well, it wasn't quite that bad. A bunch of soldiers who have not been able to cut loose for six or eight or nine months made it a running, constantly refreshed party. It was good times. The training was not the worst, but I don't know if the timing was great.
I'm a reservist, so when I got home I was met at the airport by a couple of people from my unit and my parents, and then after that it was about how quickly I could find several friends and get out and party with them.
There was sporadic follow-up, mostly of a medical nature, and a token meeting with a social worker. With them, if you go in and just give them the right answers, they tick their boxes, and you go off and you don't have to worry about them again. Many members just did not disclose things, and in many cases issues had not emerged at that point either. We know that the mean incidence of mental health disorders can often be as long as five years after a trauma. My longest follow-up was, I believe, six months post-tour, so perhaps there's a vulnerability there.
It really felt as if they were ticking boxes just to say that they got this done. I'm not questioning the intent of those who put this in place, but I am questioning the effectiveness of the process and the lack of longer-term follow-up a few years down the road. I felt very few of the vets in crisis are still in that immediate post-deployment phase.
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
4:30 p.m.
Founder, It's Just 700
The assessment is only for those who have been in active combat. I was in the navy, personally. You have to ask for an assessment to be done, and perhaps even insist on it. In fact, this concerns people suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, and not the mission support team.
People are not always comfortable at the thought of going to their commanding officer to ask for an assessment. These assessments are part of new procedures, and I tried to make sure they would apply to everyone, but that was turned down. Only those who have served in operational forces may receive the assessment.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC
I have a question for you, Ms. Gagnon.
Lieutenant-General Vance made a statement last year on sexual misconduct in the armed forces. Are you familiar with what he said at the end of November? What do you think of it?
4:35 p.m.
Founder, It's Just 700
Are you talking about the statement made at the end of November?