No? Okay.
Evidence of meeting #40 for Veterans Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was training.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #40 for Veterans Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was training.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4 p.m.
Founder, It's Just 700
It was just that in my situation, because I was operational when my assault happened, they considered that an operational thing. For a lot of people that is not the case, but I was allowed to go in because of it. I was invited to take the training; I just couldn't do it.
4 p.m.
Liberal
Alaina Lockhart Liberal Fundy Royal, NB
Okay. Fair enough.
To that point, you mentioned several recommendations that I thought were very good. Some of them were very familiar to us from other testimony we've heard. As far as our front-line Veterans Affairs staff are concerned, what do they need? What do we need to do to make that first contact better?
That's actually a question for both of you.
4 p.m.
Founder, It's Just 700
I would say the information needs to be online, because people need to advocate for themselves now. Then we can actually check what's going on. We call, and the information differs, depending on whoever is answering the phone. We get people who have been told they can't have VAC rehab, and they have to wait, but they were at school, so by the time they get it, they don't know that they will not reimbursed for their school.
Most of the MST people are young. The average is between 17 and 19 years old. This is when they get assaulted. When they leave, they are going back to school, and this is different process, so the information has to be there.
There are a lot of females in the reserves. We're falling through the cracks when the information comes, so we always end up in this waiting game where we get put on hold for a specialist who never calls back. Those are the kinds of things we experience. I think if it's online, we'll know what to expect and we'll be able to access care.
The forms, also, are only combat-related. I was asked to do a gynecological test 10 years afterward. I had to go. That's the process, even though I had two kids after that. What can you find? It was intrusive for no reason. It took me eight months to fight this, just to be allowed to pursue it. I was allowed to pursue this after they initially told me I couldn't. I couldn't go to the BPA because my claim wasn't denied, so here was no recourse for me. The only recourse I had was to gather 19 other people like me, and then we got reconsidered, but it took over eight months just to be allowed to proceed. That kind of stuff needs to change.
February 6th, 2017 / 4:05 p.m.
NDP
Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you very much for being here. We appreciate this testimony. It's going to help us to come up with a report that we hope will help veterans.
Madam Gagnon, I have a number of questions for you. You talked about other veterans websites, the American website specifically, as clear examples of what Veterans Affairs could be doing. What was it in the American website that gave you or American veterans better information?
4:05 p.m.
Founder, It's Just 700
First of all, they had the definition. There was acknowledgement that it happens. They have explanations of what can be considered as proof that are different from what would apply if you went into combat. For example, if you contacted a help line and you can prove it or if you went and asked for help during that time, those can be proof.
Those are the kinds of things you can ask for to get your claim ready. Right now the people who help with claims are the Legion. By the way, 19-year-old women won't necessarily feel like going to the Legion to get help. The Legion is not well versed there in how to address those cases. They make a case just like a combat case, and then we get denied. Once it's time for an appeal, we can't bring new information. We need a proper person, or at least something online that tells us what we can do if we did or didn't report it or if our med file is gone for some reason. We need to know what can be done.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
You launched your group two years ago. What has changed in regard to the services for veterans living with military sexual trauma? Is there anything positive? Have you seen a difference in two years?
4:05 p.m.
Founder, It's Just 700
I have recently seen more VAC claims being accepted. It's when people push and push and are about to come out in public that they get accepted, so I guess that's a good start.
Before, you had to almost fake another trauma. It was so hard to get a hearing for military sexual trauma that people would find another thing—a loud noise or something scary, something easier to prove. Military sexual trauma was rarely the real case. They were using other ways to get access to services.
However, they are starting to accept the fact that military sexual trauma can be a case. Also, if the act happened, let's say, after work, but you get repercussions at work and you have proof of that, these cases can also be considered. Before, if the act happened, say, at a mess dinner, then you were not covered. Now they are starting to look into whether they should cover people in mandatory mess dinners at night and people who got assaulted in the barracks. Right now they aren't. Those things are being reviewed.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
It sounds as if it's very difficult to prove this assault happened and that it was part of being in the military.
4:10 p.m.
Founder, It's Just 700
Well, there are three filters, I would say. You have to prove it happened. You have to prove your condition is linked to what happened, because sometimes they will find childhood trauma and say you were already injured before. Then you have to also prove it was service-related.
A lot of people have been told that if they lose in court, which requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt, it technically didn't happen. Some people have been told if you lose in court, you will not get anything. That's not really fair, because if you're in combat and you have been told you have PTSD, you are allowed the benefit of the doubt, but if you're in military court or under any kind of criminal law, the burden of proof is much higher.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
It sounds like you were assaulted in the first place, and then it was made even worse by the process you had to undergo.
4:10 p.m.
Founder, It's Just 700
The BPA also treats people.... I didn't bring all the quotes, but I get people saying, “The lawyer said I would have screamed if I were you” or “If I had been raped, I wouldn't need psychological treatment.” There is a lot of victim blaming during BPA or when seeing a military doctor. There has been a lot of that going on.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
That brings me to a question about a woman seeking help for sexual trauma. Would it be easier if you were able to get help from a female support worker? Does the military or does Veterans Affairs ensure that if you are seeking that kind of help and support, there is care available from a female if it's asked for?
4:10 p.m.
Founder, It's Just 700
Actually, it's a male who brought this into my group, because he was assaulted, obviously, by another man, which often happens, and they prefer to talk to women. They would like to have the choice.
Also, it is proven—I don't have the research on that—that in peer support, women heal better when it's women alone, but if it's with other men, they tend to stay quiet and let the guys talk, so the healing process is not as good.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you both for coming and sharing your experiences and also for your service to Canada. It's greatly appreciated that you come and share your experience so we can hopefully make recommendations to make things better for veterans.
Mr. Harding, I would like to start with you. When you talk about peer identity and contacts within the veteran community and reaching out to those veterans who may not otherwise come forward and express their difficulties, how does that work across the country with your group in particular, in Send Up the Count? Is it focused right across Canada? Do you see any difficulties or challenges reaching out to more rural or remote areas?
4:10 p.m.
As an Individual
My particular group does everything online. When we started this thing, we did not expect or intend to create this group. It emerged organically. A couple of us pushed out this message. Our third founder created a Facebook page, which within days in excess of 9,000 people flocked to, so we realized we had to run with it at this point.
The intent we initially set out to promote was to proactively go out. We said, “Hey, that dude who was in your platoon in Bosnia, or Croatia, or Afghanistan, the guy you haven't talked to in three years? Just call him up or shoot him an email or whatever, and just say, 'Hey, how are you doing?' ” Just open up a conversation.
We have a lot of veterans who have dropped off the radar, and they are suffering unbeknownst to anybody. Particularly in the military, and in my case the army reserve, we all scatter back to various bases and communities.
We don't have any structured, formal thing. We were never a structured or formal thing. It just seems to have helped anyway. We encourage people to just seek out the people they have been in touch with and find out how they are. That's on an ongoing basis, not one day a year—I'm not trying to pick on Bell—but every single day. When they say, “I'm doing okay”, but you don't think they are being completely forthright, you say, “No, how are you really doing?” Give them that opening to realize that okay, here's someone who is safe to talk to about the fact that this, that, or the other thing has been going on.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
In the follow-up, I believe you're suggesting that post-release there should be this ongoing engagement and follow-up and that veterans generally will have more confidence in a fellow soldier, and therefore these individuals would be the best to do that outreach.
Do you have any recommendations on how that follow-up could happen after release? Is this something you foresee in the future being structured through VAC, or is it better to leave it to individual organizations like yours to do that?
4:15 p.m.
As an Individual
Well, that's a doozy. “I'm from the government and I'm here to help” is not always going to play over well.
4:15 p.m.
As an Individual
Most of these contacts just happen informally. We just talk to our friends.
After I came back from Afghanistan, some months later I began getting hounded by emails to attend a follow-up appointment with a military social worker. After long enough, they were eventually able to pin me in a room and get me talking, just to make sure things were good, and they were. When you're still serving in the military, there is at least a mechanism to compel you to do that. Once someone is out, they can't be compelled. That said, once someone is out, there is no reason, to my mind, that someone couldn't just check up and say, “Hey, you've been out for a while. Has anything emerged since your release that you think might benefit from access to supportive resources?”
When you release from the military, you do not automatically become a VAC client. There are probably privacy firewalls somewhere in policies or regulations that preclude names and contact info from getting sent from DND to VAC. I can't provide a solution to that.
Hypothetically, that wall could be knocked down and VAC could be enabled, on a proactive basis, to reach out one or two years post-release just to say, “Hey, we're following up with you. You've been out for a while. How are you adapting? Do you know we have this and that?” Frequently, I find that veterans are completely unaware of the options that are open to them.
As to how this would be done, I would need to do a lot more thinking on that.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
Okay, but in your experience, having former soldiers, colleagues of these individuals, doing that outreach means that the response is much better. The credibility and the trust are there, so to speak.
