Evidence of meeting #47 for Veterans Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Elizabeth Rolland-Harris  Senior Epidemiologist, Directorate of Force Health Protection, Canadian Forces Health Services Group, Department of National Defence
Alexandra Heber  Chief of Psychiatry, Health Professionals Division, Department of Veterans Affairs
Johanne Isabel  National Manager, Mental Health Services Unit, Directorate of Mental Health, Department of Veterans Affairs
Chantale Malette  National Manager, Business and Customer Relations, Employee Assistance Services, Department of Health
Cyd Courchesne  Director General, Health Professionals Division, Chief Medical Officer, Department of Veterans Affairs

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

Good afternoon, everybody. I would like to call the meeting to order.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on September 29, the committee is resuming its study on mental health and suicide prevention among veterans.

For the first part we have, from the Department of National Defence, Dr. Elizabeth Rolland-Harris, senior epidemiologist, Canadian Forces health services group; and Dr. Alexandra Heber, chief of psychiatry, health professionals division.

We'll start with your 10 minutes before we go into questioning.

The floor is yours. Thank you.

3:30 p.m.

Dr. Elizabeth Rolland-Harris Senior Epidemiologist, Directorate of Force Health Protection, Canadian Forces Health Services Group, Department of National Defence

Mr. Chairman and members of the House committee on veterans affairs, thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today. For the past decade I have been a senior epidemiologist for the directorate of force health protection, more colloquially known as DFHP, which is part of the CF health services group. I hold a master's degree in science in epidemiology from the University of Toronto, as well as a Ph.D. in epidemiology from the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine in the U.K. Prior to joining DFHP, I worked as an epidemiologist at the provincial and regional levels as well as in the academic sector.

As an epidemiologist my primary role, really, is to respond to the needs for statistics and data on the part of the decision-makers within CF health services and the larger Canadian Armed Forces—also known as CAF, which I'm sure you know by now. Clinicians and decision-makers who develop the policies, implement clinical practice, or work towards keeping the CAF healthy really need to know who their population is and what their needs are, and that's where I fit into the larger picture. I'm behind the scenes, providing those who “do” with the statistical information they need to proceed in an evidence-based fashion. I do so as part of a larger directorate, the directorate of force health protection.

DFHP functions similarly to how a provincial health authority would work, but does so specifically for the CAF. The key pillars of public health are surveillance and assessment of the population's health, health protection, health promotion, and disease prevention.

With respect to public health surveillance, an important part of what we do is to monitor the health of the CAF, primarily through surveys such as the health and lifestyle information survey, as well as through other health surveillance functions. These can be broader in scope, as is the case with the CF disease and injuries surveillance system, which monitors disease and injury during deployment specifically, as well as the CF health evaluations and reporting outcomes surveillance system, which can be adapted to look at a number of health-related conditions and concerns. These systems can also be a lot more specific, as is the case with the mortality database or the suicide surveillance system, the latter of which is the source of the information from which the report on annual suicide mortality in the CAF is created. The trends and the patterns that we identify through our work using these diverse sources of information are then used by policy- and decision-makers in developing and implementing evidence-based, health-related policies and programs across the CAF.

As mentioned, one of our reports that you're most likely familiar with is the “2016 Report on Suicide Mortality in the Canadian Armed Forces”, which covers suicides between 1995 and 2015. I'll refer to it from here on in as the 2016 suicide report.

We within the CAF, both civilians and military, consider every suicide a tragedy. Suicide is firmly recognized as an important public health concern. As such, this report has been produced since 1995, with annual releases since 2008, in an effort to gain greater insight into suicide in the CAF. Monitoring and analyzing suicide events of CAF members provides valuable information to guide and refine ongoing suicide prevention efforts.

While we do collect and monitor data on all suicides, including males or females and regular or reserve force members, the annual reports cover only regular force male members. The reason is that reserve force and female suicide numbers are too small for us to release detailed information about the cases without running the risk of identifying the individuals and compromising their privacy. Although their experiences are included in the evidence used to drive mental health policies and suicide prevention endeavours within the Canadian Armed Forces, the information is not presented in the annual reports.

All suicides are ascertained by the coroner from the province in which they occur. The information is then provided to and tracked by the directorate of mental health, which cross-references it with the information collected by the administrative investigation support centre. The centre is part of the directorate of special examinations and inquiries.

Whenever a death is deemed to be a suicide, the deputy surgeon general orders a medical professional technical suicide review report, or MPTSR. The investigation is conducted by a team consisting of a mental health professional and a general duty medical officer. This team reviews all pertinent health records and conducts interviews with medical personnel, unit members, family members and other individuals who may be knowledgeable about the circumstances of the suicide in question. Together, all this information is used to create the findings in the annual suicide report.

Over time, the picture of suicide in the Canadian Armed Forces has changed. While the rates may vary somewhat from year to year, a consistent and clear picture has emerged over the last decade. Canadian Army personnel, more specifically those in the combat arms trades, are at a greater risk of suicide than the Royal Canadian Navy and Royal Canadian Air Force members.

There’s some emerging evidence that deployment may also be a concern. However, we need to be careful with this broad description of deployment, since it can include many types of deployments—for example, humanitarian, peacekeeping or active combat—and many different experiences, both good and bad. Further research and analysis is required in order to determine whether, on its own, deployment is really linked in some way to the risk of suicide.

We're starting to get a much better understanding, through the work done by my colleagues from the directorate of mental health, as well as within DFHP, about underlying risk factors for suicide. For example, amongst the regular force males who took their own lives in 2015, over 70% of them had documented evidence of marital breakdown or distress prior to their deaths. Debt, family and friend illness, and substance abuse were identified risk factors.

These are also often seen in the general population. Most of them had more than one non-mental health risk factor at the time of their death. While troubling, this is consistent with what is being seen by other militaries, and I think it highlights the direction in which our research and surveillance efforts should be increasingly concentrated moving forward.

With this in mind, DND, as part of the Public Health Agency of Canada, led an interdepartmental working group on suicide-related surveillance data, which is one of the expected deliverables of the federal framework for suicide prevention. Membership within this working group is an excellent venue to see what work is being done by fellow federal agencies around suicide surveillance and prevention, and to share information on how to be more effective and consistent in our collaborative approaches.

We also have a long-standing relationship with VAC. We have been collaborating for a number of years on the CF cancer mortality study, which has looked at suicide risk over an individual's lifetime, both during and after service. We're currently collaborating with them and Statistics Canada on a second iteration of the study. We plan on looking at cancer and causes of death, including suicide, in still serving and released regular force and reserve class C personnel who enrolled in the CAF between 1976 and 2015.

We also sit on the steering committee for the veterans suicide mortality study, which will be looking at suicide risk amongst all former regular force and reserve class C veterans who released from the Canadian Armed Forces, also between 1972 and 2015.

In summary, surveillance is an important and integral component of understanding the risk factors and trends associated with suicide among serving and released personnel. Collaboration between departments and researchers has been ongoing, as demonstrated through the CF CAMS 2 and other research initiatives, and will prove to be extremely helpful in understanding this complex issue.

Thank you.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

Thank you.

We'll begin with six minutes with Mr. Kitchen.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, both doctors, for coming. I appreciate it. Hopefully you will help shed light on some of the issues in epidemiology and the studies that we may not know a lot about.

I'm wondering what you think about the parameters that you have available. What I'm trying to get at is that The Globe and Mail reported recently that 70 suicides have occurred in the last five years, I believe they said, which they were equating basically with our soldiers' coming out of Afghanistan.

I don't know whether you've seen or read that report. How do you see that playing into this report that we're talking about today?

3:40 p.m.

Senior Epidemiologist, Directorate of Force Health Protection, Canadian Forces Health Services Group, Department of National Defence

Dr. Elizabeth Rolland-Harris

At the moment, through the annual suicide report, looking at deployment as a variable is very difficult. When we deal in epidemiology or statistics, there's a concept called “power”. In essence, you have to have a certain number of individuals to be able to parse the information. Although we've been collecting suicide information for upwards of 20 years now—and let's be clear, one suicide is one suicide too many—statistically speaking, we have very few, so we cannot parse that information. For me to be able to answer whether Afghanistan is or is not a factor, is something, from a purely mechanical point of view, I cannot do at this point.

However, if I may elaborate, through CF CAMS 2, we have a cohort of nearly 250,000 individuals. Obviously not every one was in service during the Afghanistan years—some predate those years. Nonetheless, we're able now to look at basically everyone who's been in Afghanistan and who enrolled post-1975.

We hope to be able to start looking at specific deployments, as opposed to just looking at deployment as a dichotomous yes or no.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

You've talked a bit about some of the parameters that you use. Can you expand on all the parameters you look at? For example, do you look at things such as identity loss, and whether that is an issue or not within your research?

3:40 p.m.

Senior Epidemiologist, Directorate of Force Health Protection, Canadian Forces Health Services Group, Department of National Defence

Dr. Elizabeth Rolland-Harris

You need to remember that I'm only one piece of the puzzle. I am there to help analyze the information. That information is not provided to us. You would have to speak to someone who participates in the MPTSRs to get a better handle as to whether that's something they look at or not.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

If you're not getting the correct data, you can't report on—

3:40 p.m.

Senior Epidemiologist, Directorate of Force Health Protection, Canadian Forces Health Services Group, Department of National Defence

Dr. Elizabeth Rolland-Harris

I wouldn't say it's incorrect data. It's—

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Let's say widespread data. It's hard for you to analyze if you don't have the data.

3:40 p.m.

Senior Epidemiologist, Directorate of Force Health Protection, Canadian Forces Health Services Group, Department of National Defence

Dr. Elizabeth Rolland-Harris

There are two factors. I'm just speculating here, but it may be that it's so rare that we can't look at it, and it may be that it isn't there. I can't speak to that.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Are you involved at all in...?

Sorry, go ahead.

3:40 p.m.

Dr. Alexandra Heber Chief of Psychiatry, Health Professionals Division, Department of Veterans Affairs

Can I add something to that from the Veterans Affairs perspective?

First, I want to introduce myself. Although I am not making a statement, I think you should have a little bit of a sense of my background. I've worked in the mental health field for over 30 years. In 2003 I started working for the Canadian military in Ottawa as a psychiatrist, and three years later I put on the uniform. So I served, including in Afghanistan. I released in 2015 and I started the job as chief psychiatrist of Veterans Affairs Canada in September 2016.

Although I'm not here to represent the Canadian Forces, I have some knowledge of this. Regarding your question about identity, I will tell you that it is something we are very interested in at Veterans Affairs. We are looking at the period of transition of person from being a military member to a veteran and what happens to people in that period. We want to know their vulnerabilities and what we can we do for them as organizations. There's a lot of talk about closing the seam, especially for our vulnerable populations, the people we know have mental health diagnoses or physical problems that are impeding their quality of life. These are people we know we want to help through that transition period.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Do you have privacy challenges in collecting your data? I'm speaking about both points of view.

3:45 p.m.

Chief of Psychiatry, Health Professionals Division, Department of Veterans Affairs

Dr. Alexandra Heber

It's different. We have different issues.

3:45 p.m.

Senior Epidemiologist, Directorate of Force Health Protection, Canadian Forces Health Services Group, Department of National Defence

Dr. Elizabeth Rolland-Harris

It's different. To be honest, I am at the end of the chain. I get the data once it's been dealt with by the individuals from the CSEA, the individuals who deal with deaths within the Canadian Armed Forces.

The data is provided by them to the directorate of mental health. They are cross-referenced and confirmed by the directorate of mental health, and then they are passed on to us because we have the analytic expertise.

So as far as I know, the answer to your question is no.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Does VAC have challenges in getting that information?

3:45 p.m.

Chief of Psychiatry, Health Professionals Division, Department of Veterans Affairs

Dr. Alexandra Heber

We have a very different system from that of the Canadian Forces, where we have a wraparound health care system. Everybody in the forces is taken care of by the Canadian Forces' health care system. That doesn't happen once somebody leaves. Once they retire, their health needs are taken care of by the provincial health authorities. If a veteran has come forward or has in some way been identified as somebody who has a condition that is service related and for which they need help, then we provide all kinds of services. For example, we will financially support—and support in many other ways—their health care. We do not, however, have a health care system in the same way that the Canadian Armed Forces has.

You ask a good question. If something happens to a veteran, for example, if a veteran commits suicide and we would like some information, the health care information is contained within the provincial health care system. We don't have access to that information. We have access to some information, because these people usually have a case manager in our system, but the case managers are there to coordinate all the different services they get. They are not the health care providers.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

Thank you.

Mrs. Lockhart.

March 20th, 2017 / 3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Alaina Lockhart Liberal Fundy Royal, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Dr. Rolland-Harris, thank you for your testimony.

You mentioned in your testimony that some of the trends you're seeing highlight the direction in which the research and surveillance efforts should be increasingly concentrated, moving forward.

Can you expand on that a bit for us?

3:45 p.m.

Senior Epidemiologist, Directorate of Force Health Protection, Canadian Forces Health Services Group, Department of National Defence

Dr. Elizabeth Rolland-Harris

In essence, if you followed the transition or how the annual reports have been progressing since 2008, there are two main trends that have appeared.

The first is that the rate of suicide in the Canadian Armed Forces in general—here I'm talking about all types of uniform—is not statistically higher. The rate of suicide in the whole Canadian Armed Forces is not higher than in the Canadian general population. That's the first trend.

The second trend that we have been seeing, since 2008 or so, maybe a little bit before, is that members of the army component of the Canadian Armed Forces have been at significantly higher risk of taking their own lives, relative to the Canadian population and the other colours of uniform.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Alaina Lockhart Liberal Fundy Royal, NB

Are you saying that although the number is on par with the general population, it's offset between the navy, air force, and army?

3:50 p.m.

Senior Epidemiologist, Directorate of Force Health Protection, Canadian Forces Health Services Group, Department of National Defence

Dr. Elizabeth Rolland-Harris

Yes, there's a balance that happens. We've been very transparent in that we look at each colour of uniform separately. We're not trying to hide what's happening by just looking at a general trend. The fact there are different things happening in the different arms of the Canadian Armed Forces is something the leadership takes very seriously.

To go back to what you were asking, in essence, those two patterns have been around for a while. Yes, obviously, the rates move a little bit from year to year, but the narrative is the same. Going forward—and this is what we're doing both within DFHP and DMH—we're continuing to monitor those trends.

Don't get me wrong; we're not going to stop. Rather than expending so much energy and always focusing just on the piece after the fact, we're also trying to take some of those resources to figure out what some of the risk factors are before, so that those who set programs, the ones who write policy, can target things that matter. Maybe down the road, with this work, we'll see those trends go down. That's what I'm suggesting.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Alaina Lockhart Liberal Fundy Royal, NB

Very good. Thank you.

Dr. Heber, have you seen any differences in how the programs required have changed over time? We've gone through many different phases with our military over the years. How are things different, and what are the needs now in comparison?

3:50 p.m.

Chief of Psychiatry, Health Professionals Division, Department of Veterans Affairs

Dr. Alexandra Heber

It's a very good question. Thank you for that.

Again, I'm a psychiatrist. I work in the mental health world. Certainly, from my perspective, from the time I started working for the Canadian Armed Forces, the big change has been our participation in Afghanistan. People coming back from those deployments have been suffering from trauma-related injuries and other mental health injuries. Everyone who deploys does not necessarily develop PTSD; they can develop other mental health problems as well, and sometimes they develop several.

As those members were released from the military over time, Veterans Affairs Canada has seen a similar increase in younger veterans coming into their system with mental health problems and needing care. As I remember from when I was still in the military, Veterans Affairs Canada has been very forward-looking. In the early to mid-2000s it started setting up what are called operational stress injury clinics across the country. We now have 11 of them across Canada. We also now have satellite clinics coming out of those clinics. These are clinics where we have multidisciplinary teams, specially trained and with a great deal of experience, treating post-traumatic stress disorder and other operational stress injuries.

People were recognizing that something was happening. Because of our very good relationship with our colleagues in the CF, we were able to see what was happening and the growth in the numbers of those with PTSD coming back from deployment. We were able to say that we had better set up some services, because we're going to have these men and women coming into our system.