Veterans Affairs Committee on Dec. 5th, 2017

[BGen Bernd Mattiesen]

It started simply from the fact that for the German Bundeswehr in the past, we had laws to compensate for injury within the service, but these laws were based exactly on the civil service, meaning the policemen, the teachers, the fire brigades, or whatever. Then it was realized that they were doing more service out of Germany than they were doing in Germany, and it was not so easy to make an understanding for that, because you had the counter-argument that they are voluntary in the armed forces. If they are voluntary, they get paid for that every month, and that's enough.

This was a discussion we had very long ago in the years 2004 to 2007, and 2011.

Now the general opinion has changed on that question. We might improve a bit today, but as I said before, it's also a question of integrating the soldiers' families and relatives and environment in their therapy and support.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

We have examples in our country of serving soldiers who are qualifying for over 100% of the benefits available that are attributable to their injuries and the assessments they have received. In one case, it was somewhere around 140% of what is available, so it was over the 100% level.

Do you have any examples of people being assessed and receiving benefits well beyond what the 100% level would be in normal circumstances?

[BGen Bernd Mattiesen]

If you say 100%, it's the normal full payment for a soldier. Is that correct?

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Okay, and what would—

[BGen Bernd Mattiesen]

It is a monthly payment.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

What would that be? What would be the level of remuneration, or how much would they receive? If they qualified for the 100% level in all of the categories of their service-related injuries, what would that total amount be in terms of pension and other benefits?

[BGen Bernd Mattiesen]

If you go to the high end, if you go to a theoretically 100% disabled soldier, he or she will get 80% of the next higher payment over what they had before. This 80% is calculated from the highest payment of the group they were in, so it is roughly about what they would receive monthly at the end of their career. Additionally they would get a 150,000-euro one-time lump sum and a basic pension of 800 euros a month, again because of the disability.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

Mr. Bratina, I believe you're going to split your time with Mr. Samson.

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Okay. Guten Tag, General. Wie geht es lhnen? That is all my German.

Thank you so much for this very interesting discussion. Are there any general public controversies with regard to benefits to veterans, or is there general satisfaction in Germany under the current system?

[BGen Bernd Mattiesen]

Let me start with two comments.

First of all, there is agreement that we are on the right track in having these laws. The problem is not the law. The problem is the interpretation of the law, the living of the law, the decision in a special case. This is more or less the problem.

For example, awarding a lump sum of 150,000 euros has to be decided on 50% disability and the condition must be everlasting, permanent. How to prove everlasting is not so easy to do. We have said it must have been for two years. The question is when the two years will start. I told you before that there are other aspects, but some lawyers make a very good living on that point. This is the first thing.

Second, yes, we are thinking about improvement, of course. This is going again in the direction of integrating families and relatives within the system and providing more support. This again depends on our civilian social insurance, which now also excludes relatives from the payment if they are not sick themselves but only the relatives of a sick or ill person. This we want to change for the military now. I'm looking forward to having it changed when the new parliament is in session in Germany.

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

With regard to your comments on homeless veterans, we heard testimony from France that it was hardly an issue. The witness seemed almost puzzled as to why we were concerned. We have, here and in the United States, apparently thousands of those who have not come forward to identify.

Could I take it from your comments that, as in France, generally speaking homelessness is not as big an issue in Germany as we feel it is in North America?

[BGen Bernd Mattiesen]

Yes, I would agree with this statement. It is not such a big issue. We have people talking about it, but if you ask these people if they know one of them, then you get a more or less very weak answer like “Yes, I once met a homeless person who had worked at the armed forces.” I agree entirely.

Nearly every man who is over 40 now has worked in the armed forces because of the mandatory service in Germany, so the question is not whether he was in the armed forces, from my point of view, but whether he was commissioned in the armed forces. This is a big differentiation. From my point of view and from the discussion we have—and we have a civilian advisory team to the Minister of Defence in Germany, which we contact very often—it is talked about, but for the time being, nobody is able to give numbers or really prove or at least show that it is a big issue.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Mr. Samson, you have three minutes.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you for your presentation, Dr. Mattiesen. It's always interesting to be able to compare various countries with how we do things here to support our veterans so we can continue to improve our services to those men and women.

I have a few quick questions. The first is for a bit of information around family support, which I think one individual mentioned. If veterans come back with PTSD or other challenges, what supports are there for their spouses or partners and kids?

[BGen Bernd Mattiesen]

There are two support possibilities. The first is the social service of the German Bundeswehr, which works not only with the soldier himself or herself, but also with the kids and the families. The second is that we have a military organization taking care of the families of our deployed soldiers. From the two big Christian churches, Catholic or Protestant, we have a lot of seminars and a lot of support for the soldiers' families.

If you refer to page 14, you might see some of the books designed for the families and even for the kids, just to show what's going on with the soldier who comes home with PTSD.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you.

The second question would be about transition. Here in Canada, servicemen and women have occupational skills, certain areas of expertise in which they are outstanding in those areas in the military, but when they come back to civilian life, they don't have all the certificates or qualifications.

What type of bridging or support does your government do for those men and women?

[BGen Bernd Mattiesen]

In Germany, it is a rule that every soldier, be it a career soldier or a temporary career volunteer, gets one profession, at least at the rank of sergeant and higher.

The NCOs are educated in an apprenticeship, for example, as an electronic specialist or a metalwork specialist—it's hard to translate into English, no?—and the officers all get an academic degree in their profession, be it civil engineering or teaching or whatever. If a career soldier leaves, he gets a lifetime pension. If a temporary soldier leaves, he might be eligible for another apprenticeship or an academic degree, which he may do at federal expense after his work in the armed forces.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Sorry, but we're out of time. We might have another round for you, though.

Ms. Mathyssen, you have three minutes.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you again, Brigadier-General. I have a couple of questions to follow up.

We have heard from former members of our military and currently serving members that there is an issue in the military with regard to sexual assault. We are desperately trying to support those members.

Has this come up in your experience, and do you have supports in place for those who have suffered assault or sexual harassment?

[BGen Bernd Mattiesen]

Yes, it is an issue in the German armed forces.

Within the Ministry of Defence we have established a special commissioner, a special branch for equal rights and for all the questions of sexual assault and of inequality. It has been led by a female colonel for a while now. Every soldier is entitled to apply to this institution, and if there is a complaint, it is followed up, and they are supported in the garrison also.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Is there any effort to find discharged survivors of sexual trauma, or do you just focus on those who are still serving?

[BGen Bernd Mattiesen]

We focus on those who are still serving, yes. The soldiers—or, let me say, the civilian citizens of Germany who were once members of the armed forces but left it—are no longer under military control and are no longer supported by the institution.

Just let me say that if there's a complaint of a discharged soldier against a soldier still in service, it might be different then, but the health treatment of the discharged soldier is no different from a normal civilian.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

In that case, if there's a complaint against someone who is still serving, does the military handle it through their courts, or does it become a matter of the civilian courts?

[BGen Bernd Mattiesen]

Well, it depends. The military has a special judicial system for giving penalties, up to discharge from the armed forces, so it is always handled through the military system. We don't have military courts, if you call it that. We have special punishment within the armed forces, but it's not as high as in civilian cases.

If it's over a certain level—and this is laid down in German laws—then it's handed to the civilian side. They will carry out a normal prosecution of it by prosecutor and then a normal judgment, and then it goes back to the military. Then, in the military, the decision is made whether, in addition to the punishment given in the civilian court, there is also a need for special military punishment, which means a cut in rank or maybe even a discharge from active service.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Ms. Mathyssen, we'll give you another three minutes on the extension now. You're on your three-minute extension. Thank you.