Veterans Affairs Committee on Feb. 27th, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Good morning, everybody. I would like to call the meeting to order. Could we get everybody in their positions.

I apologize to the witnesses today that we did have to stay in the House for a vote. With trying to run the meeting to time today and maybe cutting some of the time allotments down for all of this and getting our questions out there we can get both groups in and get this done.

I would like to welcome our Ombudsman, Guy Parent, again, and Sharon Squire here.

We'll start with your testimony.

[Guy Parent, Veterans Ombudsman, Office of the Veterans Ombudsman]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to appear before you today and comment on your study, “Barriers to Transition and Measurable Outcomes of Successful Transition.”

This is not the first time I have come up to Parliament Hill to speak about the transition of servicemen and servicewomen in the Canadian Armed Forces to civilian life. I do hope that this time that this committee's work leads to action rather than further study on the subject.

As a 37-year veteran of the Canadian Armed Forces, I know the challenges of transition on both the personal and professional level. I know transition from my own experience and also from that of my son who served in Bosnia and Afghanistan, and also from many experiences of thousands of veterans I have met and worked with across Canada since being appointed Veterans Ombudsman in 2010.

I last discussed transition with this committee in 2015 and appeared before the Senate Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs to present on transition in 2017. On both occasions I emphasized that the transition process from the CAF needs to be as vigorous as the recruiting process to the Canadian Armed Forces.

I also say that transition needs to support releasing members and their families to begin a new life with purpose, a life tailored to their needs, individual goals, and offering the best future possible whether they go back to school, go on to another occupation, retire or volunteer in their community. I should also mention that the majority of my recommendations related to transition have not been acted upon. I'm not saying that progress has not occurred, what I am saying is that we are moving at a snail's pace.

I have been at this for a long time pushing as hard as I can to modernize transition. In 2014, I launched a joint project with the National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman to review the entire transition process from an evidence-based perspective. Our key findings threw a spotlight on why transition is often such a confusing and frustrating experience for veterans and their families. We have provided the committee, Mr. Chair, with infographics on this particular study.

We produced the first complete mapping of the transition process for medically releasing regular and reserve force members. It highlighted that the transition programs and services rely heavily on forms and bureaucratic processes rather than the needs of the members and their families. There are multiple players and organizations involved in transition. Each has its own accountability framework, mandate and process, which is confusing for veterans who do now know where to turn for support.

We found also that available services are not consistent across the country. Service partners are not always co-located under one roof, resulting in multiple stop shopping for the transitioning members and families. The Canadian Armed Forces and Veterans Affairs Canada each have different case management systems and multiple consent forms.

Integrated Personnel Support Centres (IPSCs) only provide support to members with a complex medical release but only 10% of all medical releases are deemed complex. Those 10% receive the advantage of a tailored integrated transition plan and individualized support. Should not all releasing members have the opportunity to access the same standard of planning, coordination and monitoring during their transition if they need it?

As well, despite several reviews and my recommendations from 2013, there remains a duplication in vocational rehabilitation programs, education and long-term disability programs across the Canadian Forces and Veterans Affairs Canada, adding complexity and confusion to transitioning members. There are in fact three vocational rehabilitation programs, the service income security insurance plan, Veterans Affairs Canada, and the Department of National Defence. Each program has different eligibility criteria, assessment requirements and benefits. There is, unfortunately, no mechanism to ensure the coordination of benefits or to verify that a member is getting the best support to meet their needs.

There has been much talk of Veterans Affairs Canada engaging earlier with medically releasing members. Initial engagement now begins with a transition interview, generally within six months of the release date. While I believe this earlier engagement is an improvement it is still too late to adequately support medically releasing members in the development of a new lifelong plan to ensure benefits and services are provided prior to release.

Finally, our analysis showed that the release process was designed for regular force members. There are only 24 integrated personnel support centres across the country, whereas there are 263 reserve units. This means that reserve force members have to rely on the support of their units to facilitate the transition process. This results in reservists being offered varying levels of expertise and service. In my opinion, that is not good enough.

I envision a transition process for all releasing members, regular and reserve, medically and non-medically released, that would have elements similar to those of the recruiting process, including transition centres across the country that are accountable to one authority and offer a single point of access for all releasing members, which would ensure that all benefits are in place at release. As well, it would include a real live person—or navigator—who would be assigned to all regular and reserve force members, whether medically releasing or not, to help fill out forms, plan members' release, provide advice on organizations that may offer support, and provide follow-up after release at predetermined intervals to ensure evolving needs are met. It would also include a single program for vocational rehabilitation and long-term disability that offers a professional counsellor to help determine the education, training, or employment needs of the member, as well as to assist them in finding a new purpose in life. It also would include issuing to every releasing member a veterans ID card that recognizes their service.

My vision also draws from a small qualitative study that my team completed last year to better understand the lived experience of medically released veterans and what contributes to a successful transition. Again, we have provided an infographic on this particular study.

My vision is also backed up by what I hear at the many outreach activities that I hold each year across the country, where I talk face to face with veterans and their families, as well as with national, regional, and local veterans advocates, organizations, and municipal leaders. We've found that the major contributing factors to a successful transition are planning ahead, being proactive, owning their transition, and having a supportive relationship.

The key challenge for transitioning veterans was finding a new purpose post military service. One veteran said this: “The military was my life, my family, my everything. I joined the army at age 19. Before that, I was in high school. I was never really a civilian adult. I don’t feel that I am transitioning ‘back’ to civilian life, but becoming a civilian for the first time.” Another veteran said, “The biggest part I'm struggling with is integrating into an unfamiliar society [and] culture where the social behaviours [and] norms I've learned from 15...years in the [Canadian Armed Forces] aren't applicable.”

It's much different from just changing jobs on civvy street: it's a complex cultural transition to a society with different norms and rules in many cases. It's not simple.

As I said at the beginning of my remarks, we have to ensure that when members leave the Canadian Armed Forces they are equipped to begin a new life with purpose, a life tailored to their needs. Not all will need assistance from Veterans Affairs Canada, but those who do should receive the benefits and services they need, when and where they need them. This should apply to regular force members as well as reservists, whether medically releasing or not.

This will give veterans and their families hope for their future. Without hope, there is no forward movement. Our veterans have served their country well, and they deserve no less.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I stand by for your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

We're going to start with four-minute rounds.

Mr. McColeman.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you for being here today, Mr. Parent.

The position you've stated publicly and the one of the DND ombudsman are very close together: that this has been overstudied. I think you've said that or have implied it today in your words.

You've also underscored the focus on bureaucracy. If you were redesigning or re-engineering the way things are set up today, what would be your one or two key recommendations? Along with that, I'm going to be very up front about the fact that when I've spoken with veterans around the country they are so frustrated with the process and with the fact that it doesn't change even after all of these studies, after all your recommendations, and after Mr. Walbourne's recommendations over and over again.

If this is indicative of how government is run, which is that there are top people in management positions who refuse to make the changes that you continue to recommend to them, I want your views on this subject. This drives down to what I hear over and over again out of veterans' mouths and the mouths of other people who have studied the subject matter repeatedly, which is that there's a top management structure, sometimes referred to as the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. Have you ever heard that term used to describe some of the people at Veterans Affairs?

[Guy Parent]

No.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I've heard it over and over again out of veterans' mouths. Why do you think there is such resistance to make these comments and changes?

[Guy Parent]

I take your point. We're dealing with two different departments, and the transition has really two aspects to it. One is leaving the forces and the other is when you're an injured veteran entering a system that will look after you for the rest of your life.

Certainly, on the side of leaving the armed forces, I believe that what is needed for the transition process is a live person, preferably somebody who has retired from the forces already, who is successful, to actually guide the people through the process, because it's very complex, very frustrating.

On the other side, to reduce the complexity of the programs and offer a bit of simplicity, it's to have one application and that once people have applied and they've actually qualified for benefits, then everything that they need should come from Veterans Affairs Canada. They should not have to actually keep asking questions about what they could qualify for. The information should be pushed out of Veterans Affairs Canada, and not pulled out.

That transition, I mean, it's difficult to look at how you transition an injured person when in fact there was never any process developed for uninjured people leaving the Canadian Armed Forces.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you. I have very limited time.

You know, the reality is from even people inside, witnesses we've had here, who have said that the duplication of those forms is necessary. People who are inside working on the subject matter have said, “No, no, we can't do that”. That's been testified here by some of the top people who run these programs. There appears to be something. Another witness, when we asked questions, said that it's easy to criticize the bureaucracy. Well, you're damn right, it's easy, because you know what, they don't make any changes.

You just said one simple change, the DND ombudsman could simplify things for veterans, yet we can't get that one simple change done.

I think there's a much deeper problem. Do you sense there is as well, in the bureaucratic structure that we have?

[Guy Parent]

I'm not sure that the structure is really the issue, but departments working together. What I don't understand is the fact that we do have other departments of government working together. One good example is fisheries and the search-and-rescue centres, for instance, where you have different government departments working together providing a service.

Fortunately, I was at a joint steering committee yesterday between veterans affairs and national defence, and there is certainly some willingness to go forward and do something about the transition. I think to this point it's been a bit lethargic, in my mind.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

You made the comment, it's not even a snail's pace. It's no pace.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

Mr. Fraser, five.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My sincere thanks to the witnesses for being here today.

I appreciate very much your being here again. I know this is your first time being here to talk about transition in particular before this committee.

I want to talk about a couple of different issues. The first is the military family resource centres. I know the government has now opened up all 32 to medically releasing veterans and their families. The good work that the military family resource centres do, usually in military communities, is a phenomenal resource that we have on the ground that can actually help transitioning members and their families.

I'm wondering what more can be done to support families in addition to the MFRCs. Do you have any concrete examples? I note that the government has initiated a caregiver amount of up to $1,000 tax-free a month to assist family members who are taking care of ill and injured veterans. Do you have any concrete examples of other things the government should or could be doing to support these family members, who do such an important job ensuring that this transition enables forces members to find a new purpose?

[Guy Parent]

Thank you. I certainly think that one very positive thing is the fact that now we finally realize that veterans don't transition by themselves. The families transition with them. I welcome this change of having veterans now being able to access family resource centres. Certainly, in my visits throughout Canada and all the bases I make a point of visiting the family resource centre, and I find that they are very open to looking at veterans' issues and helping them transition. Again, I think the important aspect there is that people don't always leave the family resource centre where they were actually serving last. For instance, a lot of people may be serving in Ottawa but they may be retiring in a community near another family resource centre. That's the opportunity now to go in to have information on this particular area when it comes to education, benefits for children, employment opportunities, and that sort of thing. Certainly I would expect that the government will continue, with Veterans Affairs and DND working together, to broaden the access and the integration of services in family resource centres to families as well.

I think an important aspect to realize as well is that this family caregiver benefit is one of the few benefits that people can now access in their own right, which was not possible before for caregivers who were family members.

One last thing, too, is this funding for research on what will benefit both military members and families will also certainly provide an opportunity to do something for families of transitioning members.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Thank you.

Ms. Squire, you had a comment on that.

[Sharon Squire, Deputy Veterans Ombudsman, Executive Director, Office of the Veterans Ombudsman]

The other thing that we noticed in our study is that the families didn't get much information during the transition process. It was solely the responsibility or the option of the serving member to provide them with information. They said if they had known what they knew now they would have engaged their partners and families throughout the transition process. So, more support to those families with information and support during the transition process would be helpful, too.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Excellent.

I want to turn to something I've noticed in my time on this committee and working on veterans' issues. Many releasing veterans find solace in being able to talk to somebody who has been through this before. I think peer support is a huge element in successful transitions for many members. Do you have any comment on what more we can be doing to identify and support peer support systems in transition? You mentioned a navigator, somebody who can help guide a medically releasing veteran, for example, or any veteran through the transition period. Do you envision that perhaps being a peer, somebody who has been through this before? What could we recommend, as a committee, that would help engage more peer support?

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

If you could answer that very quickly, I would appreciate it.

Thank you.

[Guy Parent]

What I suggest is that the peer support should come from somebody that has successfully transitioned already. If I'm military and leaving the forces and somebody has left the military and is successful, certainly there would be an element of trust there to say okay help guide me through the process. I would think also in the terms of peer support that the OSISS program that provides support now for people that are suffering from psychological distress certainly should be looked at as being a program that could be improved and maybe broadened to be offered to more people.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

If there is anything that you want to add you could get that back to us in writing with any of the answers.

[Guy Parent]

Will do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

I apologize for trying to keep it on time today.

Mr. Johns, you have four minutes.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you. Thank you for being here today and for the important work that you're doing.

There was a Toronto Star article in December that stated there's a backlog of 29,000 vets who applied for disability benefits. We had a previous witness here from VAC on two separate occasions and I had asked him to confirm this number as correct. We haven't received an answer yet about this number. Do you think it reflects the actual backlog of veterans waiting for their claims to be processed? If so, maybe, what is your estimation? Do you think the 29,000 is an accurate number?

[Guy Parent]

We don't have an actual number. I think you can probably get that from Veterans Affairs Canada. But I think what's important here is that, yes, this is one of the biggest issues of complaint we have received now in our front line. It has to do with turnaround times and the time it takes for an application to be resolved. We certainly appreciate that Veterans Affairs Canada may have a standard for service. But if they cannot meet that standard, at least people who are applying for benefits should be informed that it is such a situation. I think that's an important aspect, because then you create expectations that you will be delivered a service within 16 weeks when, in fact, it may be at 24 weeks. The important part is for the people to know that this is right now the reality and that it's going to take that long for your application to be looked at.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Earlier, you talked about a single application. In April 2015, you made a recommendation to the committee that we should have a single authority to make decisions about releasing. Could you expand on both the recommendations and whether there has been any progress on implementing the recommendations that you made back in 2015?

[Guy Parent]

There's been no movement at all in the implementation of that recommendation.