Veterans Affairs Committee on March 22nd, 2018

[Cassandra Desmond]

To tell you the truth, yes, I am tired of hearing politicians argue and battle back and forth and belittle each other over who's done what and why we're here and the reason for it, because, at the end of the day, pointing fingers is not going to get us to answers, and it is not going to help the blood of our veterans that's being spilled across our nation right now. It's just basically you guys wasting time trying to figure out who went wrong instead of figuring out who it is you're trying to fight for right now. It's not about you guys any more.

You guys were made our leaders because you made these promises prior to coming into the seats you are in right now, and now that you have taken these seats it's almost like you have forgotten what speeches, what promises, and what things you implemented that got you there.

As far as I'm concerned, I would love to see you guys come to an agreement on something, but I doubt that's going to happen because this is meeting number number what, 80? In 2016, December, if I can say the exact date, I'm pretty it was sure it was December 9, 2016....

Maybe I'm wrong, but it was December 2016, a month before my family tragedy occurred, that, Mr. Ellis, you had claimed basically that the proper recommendations and references needed for a successful civilian transition were in there one month before my family tragedy. I read that you basically closed out all that. In the references you thanked the witnesses who were here previous to our even being here for all their contributions and everything they had contributed to help with the successful civilian transition plan. And still we're back here today after you did that in December of 2016. Really, what are we here for? Is it just for you guys to hear what problems are going on to selectively figure out where you're going to put your interest, or are you actually going to listen to us, hear us, and put your feet and your hands and everything else in the proper place where they're supposed to be and get this done? At the end of the day, there is more blood being shed on your guys' hands sitting here belittling each other and battling back and forth over who will be the right person to get the right things done.

You guys are all leaders here. Put your ideas and everything together. Listen to what we're saying. I'm sure that together great things will happen, but sitting here battling back and forth trying to figure out who's going to be the proper party to put all these things in place is not helping us. It's not getting rid of our hurt and pain. It's not giving us answers. It's not showing anything. It's not bringing us justice. It's not showing us any type of accountability or anything, so basically, yes, all these issues are here and occurring. You're not giving us any answers or anything. You're basically just trying to battle back and forth with each other.

Stop thinking about yourselves here and think about the people who are hurt and who are going through this and why we are here.

Yes, I am sick and tired of hearing you guys battle back and forth.

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

On that point, Ms. Elms, you brought it up with regard to your husband, who was an active soldier who did not want to lose his deployment, right?

[Sherri Elms]

Yes, he was still.... His uniform was ready to go, even the morning he died.

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Yes, okay, so here's what I'm getting at.

One of the things we've discussed around this table is that there needs to be better communication, because we're talking about transition—

[Sherri Elms]

Yes, he didn't get that.

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

—between situations that are arising with active members of the military and soon-to-be veterans upon their release, and it seems to be a problem related to how the active duty members and the veterans department are communicating with each other. In the case of a soldier—and we've heard this so often—they signed up to serve, and they don't want to lose their universality of service.

[Sherri Elms]

Yes, they don't want to lose their soul.

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

That's what I'm getting at.

[Sherri Elms]

If there's one thing I can say about politics and the military, it's that nobody knows what a career soldier feels and is. That “family” idea is not just a platitude. My husband was a royal. He was a member of the Royal Canadian Regiment from the time he was 14, and part of his moral injury was watching everything he stood for stripped away by the politics of it all. I watched him come home from Afghanistan. I watched that happen. I watched them disband the airborne regiment. I sent letters to Jean Chrétien.

Politicians have to understand what that does to their soul. He left me with a two-year-old and a two-week-old, and went to Petawawa for the disbandment of the airborne regiment. He cried like a baby, and when he became an officer and saw the politics involved in the officer corps, it took a bit more of his soul. He sat at 51 years of age and looked back on his military career, and all he saw was failure. He was a decorated soldier. He won an Ironman competition.

Please, you have to understand what the soul of a soldier is. I was never a soldier, but I lived with one.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Mr. John, you have six minutes.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you. Thank you all for agreeing to appear. Thank you, Mr. Campbell and Mr. Bedard, for your service, and to Ms. Elms and Ms. Desmond, thank you for your courage in being here today.

On behalf of the NDP and all parliamentarians and Canadians, I want to offer my sympathy and condolences to you and your families. I'm sure the family members you lost would be very proud of you, being here today and helping us understand how we treat our veterans who are suffering after their service to our country. I wanted to acknowledge that, and if there are any questions you're uncomfortable answering, please don't hesitate to not answer.

I'll start with Ms. Desmond and Ms. Elms.

What programming was given to your family, and to Brad and Lionel on their return home, for mental health services from the Department of National Defence? Could you speak a little about what happened after their deployments?

[Cassandra Desmond]

Next to none. My brother's pension was released a month after his death. My brother had been out of the military for 18 months. In July of 2015, my brother was medically released. On January 3, he committed suicide, taking along my mother, my first-born niece, and his wife, my sister-in-law.

My brother sought help. He cried for help. He wasn't shy. He knew there was something wrong. He knew himself. He knew he needed help. He had the love and support of his family. He went to get the help, but the help of our government and Veterans Affairs is where it all started to spiral downward.

He didn't have that support from VAC. He didn't have that support from the Department of National Defence. He cried out to them. He asked questions, but just like every other veteran, he had to basically go out and do it on his own. They release them, but for their paperwork and all that stuff, when they go to civilian doctors and are reaching out for help, they have to contact VAC and get this all released to them. They have to sign papers in order for their own information to be released to them.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Can you identify some services, medical or other, that could have helped Brad or Lionel?

[Sherri Elms]

Brad realized the weekend before he took his life that he had a problem. He said to me it was never me, it was him, but he didn't survive that realization. I said this in the board of inquiry, I said this in the interview with the base: you have to find some way to listen to families. This split of the care of the member by DND and the family by the civilian system doesn't allow for any cross-pollination. I knew, and he went for help off and on. It didn't work. My husband had therapy-resistant depression for over 10 years. As I was going through his chart, I laid it all out. Nothing worked. He only knew putting one foot in front of the other.

This strange thing happened with us. Before Brad died, my kids and I were already in therapy. Our life was a mess. After Brad died, the man that my daughter and I go to wasn't a VAC provider, so I pay for my own therapy. They wouldn't allow me to submit a bill. They said once that they would, and then they said they couldn't. I just gave up fighting. I pay for my own therapy. It's covered now because I'm going back to school and I need it to get through school.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Cassandra, as the Province of Nova Scotia is going through the inquiry to look into what happened there, is there information that the Government of Canada could release or things that they could do to help support the inquiry so we get the answers?

[Cassandra Desmond]

Yes. There was a report written in The Chronicle Herald, Nova Scotia's broadcast newspaper—and I'm sure it was in many newspapers too—about the controversy where the province called the inquiry and not the Government of Canada, and that there might be some information or things that the Province of Nova Scotia would be limited in, or whatnot. I hope and pray to God that you guys release every bit of information that our province is going to need to help my family and me and veterans who are feeling this pain along with me to get these answers.

VAC representatives came and met with my family on my brother's birthday as a matter of fact, November 21. I showed up here on October 20, had a rally on Parliament Hill. I took that initiative to come here. They had no interest in contacting my family. We never got an apology. We never got a thank you for Lionel's service. We didn't get anything. I'm sure if they had said they're going to turn the other cheek on us and just sent a message like that, at least they would have said something, but they said nothing. I had to come to Ottawa on my own time and dime on October 20. I have three small children at home. I'm a single mom raising three kids, doing this fight. As I said, we all have a storm, we all have a battle. That's just part of mine. I sacrificed that and I came here and I brought my rally. That's the only way that I could get the Minister of Veterans Affairs' attention to even have the audacity to invite me down to his office. He wouldn't even come outside. It probably would have been his best bet to come outside, considering every person I stood with then and before that day were people who had questions for him and he could have given answers. It just goes to show where his heart is.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

We'll have to move on. I'm going to have to go on to some lightning rounds after this. We are tight for time.

Mr. Eyolfson, go ahead, and then we'll switch to four-minute rounds.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all for coming.

I can't imagine the pain that all of you are going through with all this. To say it's difficult to listen to is irrelevant because you're the ones going through this. What's difficult for me is irrelevant, but we need to help, we need to fix this. I know that.

Right now all I can offer is apologies and hopes that we can fix this.

Ms. Desmond and Ms. Elms, you were making references.... This is part of an issue I brought up and Mr. Bratina referred to as well. You put it very well, Ms. Elms, when you mentioned the soul of a soldier.

We've heard a lot of testimony from veterans who had problems, whether they were physical or mental, and they didn't want to come forward because under universality of service if they couldn't be deployed, they'd be removed. By ignoring these symptoms, not getting treatment, and concealing it, things got worse. They might not have gotten worse had they had treatment earlier.

Ms. Desmond, do you think Lionel might have come for help earlier had there been the chance that it wouldn't have been the end of his military career, that he might have been simply reassigned but still in the military, still part of the culture with all the services the military had?

[Cassandra Desmond]

Why should Lionel had to have come for help? The military medically released him. You guys already knew there was an issue with Lionel. You knew there was a problem, so why should he have had to come for help? Is that not the job of your guys, to make sure that these men and women are taken care of before and after?

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

I understand that. What I mean is—

[Cassandra Desmond]

Lionel reached out for help in many different ways. I'm sure if you guys look through his file or anything.... He's been in many different provinces across Canada: Ontario, New Brunswick, and Nova Scotia.

I'm not sure how you want me to answer this question, but this is how I'm going to answer it. How much more help does a person have to cry out for before you guys do your jobs? Maybe you guys should start contacting them and asking them if they need help. Why do you always put it on the veteran?

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

I understand. What I'm trying to get at is what we've seen, and perhaps I didn't make it clear in my question. There are some people who, when they are serving, even when they are asked if they are okay, they say, “I'm fine”, and we've seen many people who have said that when they're asked. We ask, “Are you okay?”, they say, “I'm fine”, because they know that, if they don't say that, if they say they're having bad dreams or things are bothering them, then they don't make this—

[Cassandra Desmond]

They think you're going to boot them out the door even quicker. I don't believe that it would have helped Lionel in either situation. If he had gone for the help prior to, earlier on, or whenever he decided to come out and say.... When you guys realized there was a problem there, “Lionel, we've got to get you ready for transitioning here, medical release or something, if you can't come back”.

Regardless if you guys had found that problem beforehand or earlier on, I don't think it would have made a change or a difference in the timeline of when you would have caught him having his trouble and falling out with the PTSD and everything else. Either way, whether it be earlier on or when he did, I don't think anything would have happened, or nothing would have changed. We're already a year into the tragedy and everything, and it took how long to get all of that said and done? I doubt that would have been done, too. Believe me, I have many doubts when it comes to your guys' timelines.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Ms. Elms, what are your thoughts on that?

[Sherri Elms]

I was just thinking about this quickly. You're trying to apply a civilian solution to the mental health of a soldier. As Aaron said, it doesn't work. For years there was a room in the mess, and none of the spouses went in there. That's where they went, and they drank, and they talked, and that is no longer socially acceptable. You don't go home and beat your wife, and you don't get smashed in the mess.

There's got to be a military-specific way to address these things. You cannot take the paradigm of a civilian person with mental illness and layer it on top of a soldier. It doesn't work, and it's not socially acceptable to them. We need something that comes from the soldiers, for the soldiers, not from a civilian psychiatrist or a civilian idea of mental health. It's special. It's different. It's a moral injury. Like, everything's PTSD. It's not all PTSD. There's a moral injury at the core here, and there may be other things at the core here, like mefloquine. I don't have a hammer and think everything's a nail, but I'm a pharmacist and I know drugs. There's something there. You can't say there's nothing there. There's something there.

I think what you need is a military-specific response to mental health in the military, and not what I would do with one of my patients.