Evidence of meeting #86 for Veterans Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was indigenous.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Scott Sheffield  Associate Professor, Department of History, University of the Fraser Valley, As an Individual
Danny Lafontaine  Public Relations Officer, Association des Vétérans Autochtones du Québec
Chief Steven Ross  Grand Chief, Saskatchewan First Nation Veterans Association
Emile Highway  President, Prince Albert Branch, Saskatchewan First Nation Veterans Association

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Welcome, members, to our meeting of May 8.

Before we begin our new study, it was mentioned to me by Sherry that we will not be meeting on Thursday. The Thursday schedule is going to be a Wednesday schedule, and the House of Commons will convene at 2:00 p.m. Many of my colleagues, and perhaps some of you, will be attending Gord Brown's funeral that morning in Gananoque. I know I'll be there, so we're not going to be having a committee meeting this week on Thursday. It has been postponed, and the clerk and analyst will take care of rescheduling the witnesses that we had coming to that meeting.

Welcome to the witnesses. This is the first meeting on the study of needs and issues specific to indigenous veterans. The study topics will include: support offered to indigenous veterans by their communities during their transition process; quality of services offered to indigenous veterans by Veterans Affairs Canada; specific needs of indigenous veterans living in remote areas; specific issues affecting first nations veterans on and off reserve; Métis veterans, Inuit veterans, modern-day indigenous veterans, and indigenous reservists; issues concerning veterans who served in the Canadian Rangers; and treatment of indigenous veterans who served in the Second World War and the Korean war.

We'd like to welcome our first panel for the first hour. We have Dr. Scott Sheffield, associate professor, department of history, University of Fraser Valley in British Columbia. He is an expert in indigenous veterans history.

By video conference from Quebec City, Danny Lafontaine, public relations officer at Association des Vétérans Autochtones du Québec.

Each of you will have 10 minutes for your presentation, which will be followed by rounds of questions.

Dr. Sheffield.

11 a.m.

Scott Sheffield Associate Professor, Department of History, University of the Fraser Valley, As an Individual

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

I'm Dr. Scott Sheffield. I'm a historian who's been researching and writing about the experience of indigenous peoples in the Second World War since the early 1990s. Because of my work in their military experience, I got swept up in a rising tide of interest in and political awareness of indigenous veterans issues and grievances, particularly for status Indian veterans, regarding benefits from the Second World War and Korea.

As a grad student, I was contracted both by Indian Affairs and DND, and produced preliminary reports for them, exploring some of these issues. I was subsequently hired by the national round table on first nations veterans issues in 2000-01 to produce a final report. Based on the findings of that report, the federal government followed through in 2003 with an apology to first nations veterans and offers of compensation. Subsequent to that, from 2005 to 2012, I worked with the Métis National Council on a study, exploring the experiences and diverse grievances of Métis veterans. So I come to this with a reasonable amount of experience.

More broadly, during the Second World War, approximately more than 4,200 status Indian men and women enlisted, or were conscripted, into all three branches of Canada's armed forces. The numbers for the Korean conflict are less clear, but probably would number in the hundreds. These service men and women served in every branch of the force, and in every theatre in which Canadian Forces were engaged, and were integrated relatively seamlessly without segregation.

For most of them, it was a powerful egalitarian experience, and for many of them, sadly, the first and maybe the last time in their lives they felt respected, and honoured for their character and capacity.

Before the war was over, the federal government was already planning for the transition to peacetime, including provisions for nearly a million demobilizing veterans. Drawing lessons from the inflexible, meagre, and frankly, not-that-successful programs developed after the first world war, the architects of the system managed to craft a wide-ranging, comprehensive, flexible, and generous system of benefits the second time around. The resulting constellation of legislation and programs were organized into, essentially, a three-tiered structure.

The first tier of benefits were designed to be acquired, or applied for, as service people exited the military at demobilization, and were designed, really, to cushion the immediate transition back to civilian life. In particular, at this juncture, the war service gratuity was a key feature, which provided resources to the veterans, depending on length and location of service, that would be paid out at their monthly rate of pay, and usually provided a number of months of ongoing pay after demobilization.

Once veterans returned home, the onus, then, was on them to seek counsel from Veterans Affairs counsellors, and to apply for subsequent levels of benefits, in particular, the tier two level of benefits, which were the main re-establishment benefits programs to help veterans kick-start their post-war lives. There were three mutually exclusive options available at that second tier.

The first one was the re-establishment credit, by far, the most popular. Roughly 80% of Canadian veterans opted for the re-establishment credit. It was equal to the amount they got for their war service gratuity, and could be used to spend on a set list of potential options. After that, you had the Veterans’ Land Act for agricultural and other forms of re-establishment, and lastly, training or education.

The third tier of benefits was sort of an eclectic collection available to veterans if applicable to their particular needs, and if they applied. By and large, Veterans Affairs was staffed with returned veterans in the immediate years after the war. They were well trained, and highly motivated, frankly, to advise veterans on the appropriate path for them through this multi-layered structure in order to achieve the best outcomes. By and large, from everything I've seen of the activities of Veterans Affairs in those transitional years, their service was above and beyond.

With that as a background, and given the direction of the study you're undertaking, it seemed to me the most useful thing I could provide would be a sense of factors that negatively affected both the design and the delivery of veterans benefits for indigenous veterans of the Second World War and Korea.

Importantly, the problems in design and delivery did not automatically mean that indigenous veterans received less money than non-indigenous veterans. In some cases it did, but often indigenous veterans may well have received more actual dollars; they just didn't receive the same quality of re-establishment.

The first major challenge is that, overall, the Veterans Charter benefits were predicated on cultural assumptions of settler society. Now, this is pertinent to both status Indian and Métis veterans. The architects designed the programs essentially to build on an individual's pre-war foundations of education, work experience, skills, and maybe capital or land.

For instance, successfully accessing the Veterans' Land Act required previous agricultural experience and was enhanced if you already possessed land. Similarly, one of the third-tier benefits was guaranteed access to your old job if the employer and the job still existed. Well, that was great—if you were employed before you were enlisted. Also, if you wanted to access university training, you needed to have finished your matriculation and have completed high school in order to qualify.

That pre-war foundation was really critical to them making the most of those post-war benefits. Given the marginalized economic and social spaces occupied by indigenous peoples in those interwar years, combined with widespread indigenous land insufficiency and a generally poor access to both education and health care, many first nations and Métis veterans lacked some or all of that pre-war foundation to build on.

That's the first issue.

The second issue deals with reserve lands and the Veterans' Land Act. Generally speaking, status Indian and Métis veterans could access veterans' benefits, at least in theory, equally and without special regulation or provision. The one anomaly in this came in regard to the distinct legal constraints on Indian reserve lands, which were held in trust by the crown for the common use of the particular band. That meant that the director of Indian Affairs did not exercise a clear title and that banks could not seize or foreclose for a forfeited loan on reserve land. Those factors disqualified status Indian veterans who might like to settle with the VLA on reserve. They could not qualify.

The government recognized this, so they created a distinct clause, section 35(a) of the Veterans' Land Act, which made available only a portion of the standard $6,000 loan/grant. If you paid it off in good standing, the last $2,320 would be forgiven. What section 35(a) did was make the $2,320 available as a grant that didn't have to be paid back. This was a good start, but it was not in and of itself enough money to build an economically viable agricultural operation. Indeed, even the $6,000 wasn't, which is why subsequent loan programs were made available under the VLA to help VLA farmers achieve and grow their operations to a point where they could be economically viable.

Nevertheless, the majority of status Indian veterans obtained VLA section 35(a) grants. This is very different from the normal national average. Only about 7% of veterans opted for VLA, so the fact that more than half of status Indians did is I think interesting. One other component of section 35(a) grants allowed veterans to occupy a piece of crown land and also get the $2,320. Roughly 4,000 or so veterans opted for this, many of whom I suspect—though I can't prove it—would have been Métis veterans. They fell into a similar category.

The third issue is the segregation of indigenous veterans from mainstream Veterans Affairs and from fellow veterans. It's a diverse category of different factors. Essentially, many status Indian and Métis veterans were set apart legally, socially, culturally, and physically in the later 1940s and 1950s.

For example, liquor bans on status Indians barred them from entering Legion halls because they served alcohol. That was problematic, because Legion halls were an important node of information for returning veterans, both in the form of information posters and education posters from Veterans Affairs, but also in sharing a beer with fellow veterans and learning about their experiences and the programs they'd accessed. This was cut off from them. Even for those who weren't legally banned, non-status or Métis, social prejudice may have kept some of them from visiting Legion halls, or the remote regions in which they lived many not have had access to a Legion hall.

When status Indian veterans were demobilized, unlike other veterans, they were told to return to their reserve and get information from their Indian agent instead of going to a Veterans Affairs office. Basically what that did is shift the onus for that veteran's re-establishment from the veteran to Indian Affairs. It was a different circumstance for regular veterans.

It was problematic because many Indian agents were overworked. Their offices were understaffed in this time period because of the Depression and the labour crunch during the war years. They weren't trained or adequately knowledgeable to provide effective, constructive advice or even to properly complete forms in a timely manner.

Many status Indians and Métis veterans also lived in quite remote regions. Some of them lived a very mobile existence, physically separated from access to mainstream Veterans Affairs support centres, which were located in urban and rural population centres.

Even for those not physically destined however, there remained cultural and linguistic factors that made access to veterans' programs difficult. Some indigenous veterans were illiterate or had little access to print media or radio where other Veterans Affairs information campaigns were generally distributed, making them relatively irrelevant to them.

For many Métis, their background is one of cultural isolation and self-sufficiency. There was no established custom and practice within these communities of accessing government services about which many remained ignorant, anxious, or suspicious.

The fourth issue is the intrusion of Indian Affairs into the administration of status Indian veterans case files. In the handling of these veterans' personal case files they were disrupted and negatively affected by the role of Indian Affairs and Indian agents in what developed as a sort of separate parallel system of administration for these veterans.

This came in different forms. At its most basic it was an extra layer of bureaucracy between the veteran and their re-establishment benefits. That created delays and frustration for many veterans. Some even gave up in despair after years of effort or settled for less than was their due.

Sadly, the influence of the Indian Affairs branch was much more pervasive and problematic. This agency and its personnel were not neutral agents in their dealings with veterans. They brought a peculiar corporate culture, a potent assimilationist raison d'être that sometimes warped the intent of veterans' benefits and hurt veterans' re-establishment.

For example, I found almost zero evidence that status Indians accessed vocational and university training; a few, but very few. Certainly many would not have qualified because statistically more than 75% of status Indians in between the wars would have achieved grade 1 to 3 level of education. So only a small number, 2% to 3%, would have matriculated and qualified for university, for instance. There were education provisions for high school and they could have accessed them, but there's evidence that they weren't informed about them.

Instead, it seems that often Indian agents, instead of telling veterans what their options were, told them what they thought they should do or what they thought they were capable of, and given the negative prejudices in that era, that often was a very low bar.

The fact that the vast majority of status Indians took a VLA grant I think is also somewhat suspicious, as it was often used by Indian agents to help pay for a house for the veteran. While this might have enhanced the quality of life for veterans in the short term, it was not the purpose of VLA grants. These were not housing grants. They were re-establishment grants, designed to help set somebody up in a career that would sustain them.

Instead, agents used VLA funds essentially to supplement their own inadequate budgets for on-reserve housing, and in some places it went further than that. In the Maritimes, for instance, Indian Affairs had a program of concentration in this time period, trying to move all Mi'kmaq in Nova Scotia to two reserves: Shubenacadie and Eskasoni. They would only allow Mi'kmaq veterans to apply for a VLA grant if they agreed to move to one of these two reserves. In this sense the veterans' benefits became a tool, a stick for Indian Affairs to coerce abiding by this policy of concentration.

Some veterans did move there, got a house, but were dissatisfied living away from family and traditional territories and abandoned that house, which meant they got zero benefit from their VLA benefits in the long term.

These are just some examples of a more pervasive atmosphere that stifled and limited status Indian peoples in the 1940s and 1950s. At its core, status Indian veterans' access to benefits was almost entirely dependent on their Indian agent, and on the relationship they had with that person.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Thank you, Mr. Sheffield.

Now we'll move on to Mr. Lafontaine for 10 minutes.

11:20 a.m.

Danny Lafontaine Public Relations Officer, Association des Vétérans Autochtones du Québec

In reference to what Dr. Sheffield was talking about, here in the province of Quebec, Métis people are not recognized at all by the governments, neither federal or provincial. So basically they have to go through the same system that we have right now at VAC. So we won't even talk about it. I'm a Métis right now who probably will be recognized pretty soon as an aboriginal with the McIvor law and all that because there's a lot of work being done here in Quebec. Métis is not recognized here at all; it's from Ontario out to the west and probably a little bit of the eastern side.

The problem we're having is more like with the satellite reserves right now up north where they don't even have access most of the time to Internet or phones. They go into the forces and they come back, especially the Rangers and all that, and then they have to go through the council band to get any information, and most of these council bands don't even have any info from VAC at all. This is what we're talking about. We have zero coordination between health services on reserves and VAC. I've been talking to a lot of the chief bands right now, and what they're doing is they're taking care of their own vets and everything and basically they don't know what to do. I've been working a lot with Luc O’Bomsawin from Odanak, and not being on any reserve it's hard for me to get into the reserves because they're saying, you're not really an aboriginal guy. I know both of your grandmothers are aboriginal, but you're not aboriginal you're Métis. Basically we're having a hard time getting through to these aboriginal bands here at the 11 nations to get all this info out to our veterans. This is really the main part about it that we're having here in Quebec.

We should inform all reserve health personnel adequately so that they redirect vets through specified programs that we have right now. I know we have a lot of them. I've been working a lot at the round tables with the VAC ministers that we have right now. I worked a lot with Mr. Blaney, and now we're working a lot with Mr. Regan. What we're finding out right now is there's no access to the remote reserves right now up north, because of a lack of phones, lack of Internet, the use of satellite phones. Like Dr. Sheffield was saying, a lot of them don't even know how to write or speak most of the time. Some of the vets are going to go back to the reserves after their training. These guys are trying to talk to their reserve people and they don't even know what to say to them, so basically they just go back to being, as I say, homeless aboriginal guys on their own reserves. Basically that's what it comes to.

The other fact we had is—I don't know if you heard about it—in Montreal we have the most problems right now with homeless veterans, especially indigenous veterans. We did the “Je compte MTL” 2015 and then we did it in 2018, about two weeks ago. I don't have the stats for 2018, but I have the stats for a one-day walk in 2015 for which we had over 6,000 volunteers who walked with me through Montreal. We handed out some papers and they wrote on it who they were, the ones who wanted to. And out of 3,200 homeless people in one day we had 6% who were veterans, which are 188 veterans, and then 6% were aboriginal, and out of those aboriginal there was 22%, which is 42 of them, who were aboriginal homeless veterans. The guys don't want to go back on the reserves because the reserves don't help them out, and so they're having more help on the street in Montreal right now than in their own reserve. Basically those are the problems that we're having right now in Quebec.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Does that wrap up your comments, sir?

11:20 a.m.

Public Relations Officer, Association des Vétérans Autochtones du Québec

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Thank you so much. We'll enter in to our first round of questions, which is a six-minute round starting with Mr. Kitchen.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Thank you, gentlemen, for coming today. Your being here is greatly appreciated. I was glad to get the history lesson. I'll admit I have a history with the military and yet I'm learning today more about this than I have in the past. My colleague Cathay Wagantall, who isn't here with us today, she and I did a round table this past summer in Regina and we met with a number of the chiefs and learned even at that point a ton of information. The issue about the land acquisition was totally foreign to me and to her. These are things that this committee definitely needs to hear about and we appreciate your comments.

Mr. Sheffield, your research that you've done, correct me if I'm wrong, is it just up to after the Korean War, or have you come closer to today, modern day, and our UN peacekeepers who were in Cyprus, first nations veterans in Cyprus?

11:20 a.m.

Associate Professor, Department of History, University of the Fraser Valley, As an Individual

Scott Sheffield

No, my interest has been primarily the Second World War, and Korea. I've looked through personal case files of those veterans from further into the sixties and seventies, at some of their pension issues and challenges, that sort of thing, and up into more recent times, but I haven't looked at more recent veterans and their experiences.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Right, and without having that research, I'm just wondering if you can comment. Do you see any type of parallel there?

Mr. Lafontaine, you might be able to add to that after we hear from Mr. Sheffield.

11:20 a.m.

Associate Professor, Department of History, University of the Fraser Valley, As an Individual

Scott Sheffield

After listening to Mr. Lafontaine, I definitely think that many of the same patterns would have continued, and a lot of this just comes down to lack of connection between what's going on for Indian Affairs, Métis, who are often off the grid in terms of government services generally, and Veterans Affairs. They aren't connecting, and I think that's fairly systemic. I don't think, up until this study, anybody has considered that really, which is quite remarkable.

So yes, I would assume that variations on that theme continue, and as Mr. Lafontaine has suggested, are still endemic today.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Mr. Lafontaine.

11:20 a.m.

Public Relations Officer, Association des Vétérans Autochtones du Québec

Danny Lafontaine

I'm an ex-sergeant from the Canadian Forces, a Métis. I did 21 years in, five missions, and I can guarantee to Mr. Sheffield that whether I was a Métis or not, especially in Quebec...it's disgraceful, you know. You've got to fight all the time.

So basically I took away that part, the Métis thing, and I just said, well, I'll become an ordinary citizen and try to ask for all my stuff through Veterans Affairs. They did a great job with me. Right now I've got PTSD and everything. Anything that's financial, right now, and even with taking care of myself, it all took a long time. I went bankrupt. I had to go through all that stuff, but that's okay. Everything's good for me, right now, but imagine all the work I've done. I do a lot of work right now on the actual “cows' ground”, like, you know,

“right in the trenches”

in French.

I'm the recipient of both the VAC commendation—the minister's commendation—and the ombudsman's commendation, not long ago, for the work I've been doing on the ground, and especially what Dr. Sheffield was saying. I didn't write anything. It's mostly all ground work, and basically it's the same thing. It hasn't changed. Fifty, sixty years down the line, it hasn't changed.

In Odanak right now, Luc O'Bomsawin, who is our president, is Abenaki. His uncle went to the Korean War, but he's a white man married to an Indian woman and he lives on Odanak reserve, and it's a complete disaster. He's not getting service at all, and when the VAC comes out, they tell him he's living on the Indian reserve so the reserve should take care of him, but he says no, he's a white man. So imagine, we're still having all these little problems. It's the same thing, in between that.

Basically, as Dr. Sheffield was saying, in the northern part, where it's mostly non-educated people—and you hear it on the news all the time—people are mutilating themselves on some of the reserves, there are a lot of homeless, a lot of everything, so basically this is where we've got to work it out. We need to have direct communication with these reserves. Me, being a Métis, they don't want me in there. They're saying, “No, you're just a Métis. You're like a white man but with red blood.” Basically, that's what they tell me. “You're a white man with red blood.”

If my grandfather had been aboriginal, then I would have been aboriginal, but that's the main thing.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Very quickly, we just completed a study on transition, and I'm hearing a lot of that aspect from transition.

In one word, or a very quick sentence—and I realize I have a short period of time—on transition, what would you see for our first nations today?

11:25 a.m.

Public Relations Officer, Association des Vétérans Autochtones du Québec

Danny Lafontaine

In the northern part, there's no transition at all, because they don't actually have contacts with VAC, and this is where we're trying to get into it but we're being blocked. All these guys on the ground right now, we're being blocked by the chief reserves, basically. They didn't want to hear about it. They just keep it cool, and basically it's a little bit like what Dr. Sheffield was talking about. Some of the money is going back to the reserve instead of to the veterans.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Thank you.

Moving on to Mr. Bratina, six minutes.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Bob Bratina Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Thank you very much. It's great to have you gentlemen here with us, and our future witnesses as well.

Starting with Mr. Sheffield, there's a famous Canadian novel called Two Solitudes, about the English and French. It seems to me there are at least three solitudes, because there's so much that you've brought forward that we're completely unaware of. I shouldn't say “completely”, because I have on my own learned about people like Fred Pegahmagabow, the great sniper in the First World War, and Tom Longboat, who was from the Hamilton area and had excellent war service, and also, of course, about the support from first nations in the War of 1812.

Generally speaking, however, is the first problem here general awareness?

11:25 a.m.

Associate Professor, Department of History, University of the Fraser Valley, As an Individual

Scott Sheffield

No question, it is.

Quite frankly, it's leaps and bounds better now than when I first started working on this in the early 1990s. There was significant recognition—public, governmental, and academic—brought to these issues, primarily by first nations veterans organizations that really began campaigning for an assessment of their veterans' experience from the late 1970s.

The Saskatchewan Indian Veterans Association was really leading the charge in that time period. It was because of those efforts through the 1980s and into the 1990s that you got the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples' report on aboriginal veterans in 1994. The Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples did a major chapter on veterans issues in 1996, and that led to the national round table process that I was part of, which involved first nations veterans organizations, the Assembly of First Nations, DND, Indian Affairs, and Veterans Affairs Canada. Those things have helped.

There are, in fact, indigenous people participating in national and local acts of remembrance, conducting their own acts of remembrance. There's the national aboriginal veterans memorial here in Ottawa. Things have begun to change.

However, in the general public, yes, people remain largely ignorant of almost everything other than that “maybe there were a few Indians who went”. You're right. The famous people—Tommy Prince, Francis Pegahmagabow, and others—tend to be the only ones who people have heard of.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Bob Bratina Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Mr. Lafontaine, could you tell us when you left the service, and observations on your transition experience?

11:30 a.m.

Public Relations Officer, Association des Vétérans Autochtones du Québec

Danny Lafontaine

I left the services in late 2003. In those days, it was really bad. We had a hard time getting transition services. There weren't many of the services that we have today, which is great for transitioning out. Also, as I was telling you, being a Métis in Quebec, you weren't anything at all. They didn't really care about you as an aboriginal person. You were just part of nothing at all.

I can't really talk about the Métis side, but on the aboriginal side I can say, having a lot of friends who live on the reserves, that it was the same thing. It didn't change from what Dr. Sheffield said. It started to change a lot around about 2013 or 2014, when Mr. Blaney was there. He started working on this stuff. Basically, there was nothing at all. I went through bankruptcy, because by the time I started winning.... It took me seven or eight years to get the stuff in.

That's not just the Métis side. It's really the system. The system really changed a lot, though. It should start reflecting on the aboriginal side, but it doesn't right now. Basically, it's doing good on the white man's side, but I find that on the red man's side, as we call it, it's not there.

The problem is not because it's not there; it's the reserves. Anywhere in Canada that I talk with them, the problem is that there's no communication between VAC and the bands, especially the northern bands. That's the problem we're having right now, education.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Bob Bratina Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Mr. Sheffield referred to the egalitarian experience of indigenous veterans with their white comrades, or whatever we want to call that other group. Was that your experience?

11:30 a.m.

Public Relations Officer, Association des Vétérans Autochtones du Québec

Danny Lafontaine

Yes, sir. My two grandmothers being aboriginal, they lost their rights and then we won them again in 2009. It's just since 2009, with the McIvor law, that everything changed a lot for me, but not in Quebec. I got my Métis status from Ontario, because my parents come from there. Now I get stuff from Ontario, but not Quebec. That's how bad it is right now. The Government of Quebec and even the Government of Canada don't recognize that at all.

There's only one Métis organization right now, in Maniwaki, that is really recognized. The rest are not recognized right now. That's another little problem we're having, but it's not part of the VAC problem; it's part of the ministry of Indian Affairs.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Bob Bratina Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

It sounds to me as though we're being offered some fairly simple solutions. They probably won't be, but the problems, as they're being illustrated today, are very clear.

Lastly, Mr. Lafontaine, do the people on the reserve generally support and understand the trials and tribulations of the indigenous veteran returning to the reserve?

11:30 a.m.

Public Relations Officer, Association des Vétérans Autochtones du Québec

Danny Lafontaine

I'd say that's the case with most of the southern reserves that are more into the cities, such as Kahnawake, Akwesasne, and all these places, as well as Wendake, which I'm close to. However, all the other remote ones that are up north, even where Luc is right now, in Odanak and Wôlinak, people from the band don't know at all what's going on with VAC. They don't know what's going on with the aboriginal side, and basically that's the problem we're having.

With me trying to work in the reserves and being a Métis, which they don't recognize, it's harder to get this information on the ground and the pound thing, because I do a lot of ground work and pound work. Sometimes it's more than even volunteer stuff. They say to me now that I'm a “crazy volunteer”, so I try to get into it. I stay alive doing that.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Mr. Johns, you have six minutes.