Veterans Affairs Committee on June 7th, 2018

[Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk]

I don't have that detail with me, but our officials who are appearing right afterwards will have that information.

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

We'll get it.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

In the 2015 platform, Justin Trudeau promised that veterans would never have to fight their government in court for the benefits and compensation that they've earned, yet Order Paper question 1502 that was just tabled shows that from January, 2016, to January 31, 2018, $37 million was spent on veterans lawsuits.

Can you confirm whether since 2015 the Department of Veterans Affairs has taken veterans to court?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Is it for veterans lawsuits or is it generally? A lot of that money, as I understand it, goes to veterans representation for the Veterans Review and Appeal Board.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

According to the Order Paper, $37 million has been spent.

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

A large part of that is VRAB. I would just remind members of the committee that we're the only jurisdiction, the only country, that I'm aware of that pays for veterans to fight their government on appeals for benefits.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

The question is whether, since 2015, the Department of Veterans Affairs has taken veterans to court.

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

We've represented ourselves.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Have you taken veterans to court? Representing veterans and taking them to court court are two different things.

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

I don't think I need to remind the honourable member that we inherited a few things. We continue to have to represent ourselves in court. If there are veterans or veteran organizations that want to take us to court then they will, and I can't do anything about that other than make sure the Government of Canada and this department are represented.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

What I'd like, Mr. Chair, is for the minister and department staff to table information about lawsuits with respect to veterans, on both the government taking veterans to court and on the utilization of VRAB. I would like that to be tabled for the committee if possible.

The second question I have is with respect to the measures announced in budget 2018. The budget documents indicate that the ongoing cost of the pension for life will be $112 million. That's in the budget plan, page 216, note 1.

What is meant by the ongoing cost of the pension for life proposal? What do you mean by that?

[Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk]

Sir, again, the detail can be provided by the officials right after me.

With this pension for life, we're kind of doing what we've done for the education and training benefit and the career transition benefit, which is leveraging both the face-to-face contact and digital. We're actually creating an online capability so that we can move forward with digital applications, providing much faster service for folks, but then with additional adjudicators because we have to do the calculation for the approximately 72,000 veterans who have been clients since April 1, 2006. Some of those calculations can be done in an automated way. With some of them, because of the complexity—and there might be a number of different applications—we actually have to do them in an analog way. Plus there are all the digital application processes.

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

This gets back to the retroactivity, making sure that the people who already receive lump sums receive the same amount if they apply for the pension for life now.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

But according to the budget documents, if I'm reading this correctly, it means that the department is calculating an additional cost of $112 million a year for those monthly pensions. Is that the way I read it, or is it different from that?

[Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk]

It's an increase in the amount of money going out the door to veterans, especially those with serious injuries and those who were injured earlier in their careers.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

The calculations I've seen with respect to the pre-Veterans Charter situation is that if we were to return to it and live up to what the Prime Minister promised in the last election, it could be anywhere from $30 billion to $35 billion. Something doesn't reconcile here. You've either rehashed a lot of the existing programs into this pension for life option that you speak about, or you've returned to the previous pension. Which is it?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

First of all, let me be very clear that the Prime Minister has said that we would go back to a monthly pension, and we are back to a monthly pension, and it will be quite generous I think. It's certainly more generous, and for life and tax-free. That's what we intended, and that's what we will deliver.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Based on the budget document, Minister, you're suggesting that it's only going to cost $112 million a year.

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

No. I'll make sure that our officials get back to you with the exact numbers, but I'm pleased that we are fulfilling our campaign promise.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

The last question I have is with respect to the $7 billion slush fund in the Treasury Board. It speaks of $21 million for better services for veterans, $43 million over two years. None of that money exists in the current departmental plans. Why is that?

[Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk]

We can't put those amounts in until they're approved. We can't put any of the pension for life funds into the plans until they've been legislated and we have the Treasury Board submissions. Then we put them in following those approvals.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Robert, do you have something to add?

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Thank you.

Minister, this government has talked throughout about setting up three centres of excellence across this country. You made a big announcement of one, putting $17.5 million toward it here in Ottawa. We've heard and you've heard from our veterans throughout that they want in-patient facilities where these people with PTSD are being addressed. You've created an academic institution with this $17.5 million. By the way, the estimates only talk about $500,000. You've made that choice to go...and you said earlier here today that you believe we need to get away from in-patient facilities—

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

It's a very deliberate choice on my part.

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

The veterans say they want it. You're saying not.... At what point have you communicated that message to the veterans who voted for you, based on the fact you had said there would be three centres of excellence where they would be getting treatment for PTSD?