Veterans Affairs Committee on March 22nd, 2021

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you so much again, all of you, for your help today. It's been very revealing.

Sean, I'd just like to go to you to ask a question in regard to one of your recommendations that you've spoken of. It's the values of upfront and long-term benefits to a veterans' families advisory group. I know this government has a lot of advisory groups in place. You indicate that it should be created and composed of veterans with families, veterans' family members, rehabilitation and mental health specialists as well as medical specialists with a strong background in family dynamics and needs. Yet you also say that they would not be required to sign disclosure agreements and would not include government officials.

Could you just expound a bit on that? It's so crucial that, if we're going to do these things, they hear what needs to be heard to get it implemented.

[Sean Bruyea]

Thank you, Ms. Wagantall.

I think today is a perfect example of how you are all hearing from individuals who are unhindered in their ability to speak openly. That's what we really need. I think the public and Parliament needs to hear this unfiltered information, the unfiltered data that comes to you.

As for the current structure of the advisory groups, yes, they have some of these experts on board for the families, but the problem is that they're co-chaired by bureaucrats. There are always bureaucrats running around the room presenting material, deciding on the agenda and then editing the final reports.

I've heard from various members of various advisory groups that this is in no way conducive to providing independent, authentic and meaningful recommendations. I think it would be to the benefit of all people, Canadians and Parliament, to have these independent advisory groups that are chosen, hopefully by an independent body such as.... Currently it could be the ombudsman, but hopefully an independent federal appointments commissioner.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Great, thank you.

Dr. MacKinnon, you mentioned the need for more case managers, and I hear so often from veterans, “I had such a good case manager” at some point in time. I couldn't agree more with you. That's absolutely crucial.

I also have heard from case managers that their role right now as it stands is in the middle. They're between a hierarchy above them who give them directives, and then they have the veterans and their families who have the needs. They get caught in this dynamic. If they had more authority, more education, more understanding and more incentive to stay on long term because they didn't have such a huge caseload and weren't facing dynamics where they really don't have the opportunities to provide the care they want to give to veterans, would that make a difference? How do you see that could be improved?

[Dr. Heather MacKinnon]

Certainly if they had more of that, that obviously would help. I think more of them is also another issue that's really important. With these OSI clinics, you can't get into them without a case manager. They work wonderfully, but in my practice of all veterans, I only have two people in an OSI clinic, because they had to have a case manager put them there.

That's one of the things that we really miss, but I would say the case manager, yes, is instrumental because they know what things are available for veterans. Maybe veterans wouldn't have to ask for things if the case manager could bring it to their attention, and say, “Yes, I can give you this or do that. Have you thought about it?” Most of them say, “No, I didn't know about this,” or the caregiver didn't know what was available. I think that would be wonderful.

As I said, it just needs to be tweaked. There are things out there; you just have to get to them.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Right now, you know about the backlog obviously—

[Dr. Heather MacKinnon]

Yes.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

—and what's going on there. Who doesn't? Every Canadian knows that now.

The truth of the matter is that our case managers are burnt out, and they're being replaced or more are added in on a temporary basis. We've heard over and over again that is the wrong direction to go. What is your perspective on that?

[Dr. Heather MacKinnon]

You're right on that. They just disappear. I guess they have to look at that level in Veterans Affairs to see what can be done to support them.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you so much.

[Technical difficulty—Editor] talk to me.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

You have about 30 seconds for an answer, please.

[Gerry White]

Our problems aren't temporary, so the people who address them can't be temporary. I'd like to make a quick comment on what Sean said about one-stop shopping. I travel a lot in the U.S.A. I can go into a veterans affairs hospital in the United States and get my problems taken care of if I have a problem.

The one-stop shop that Sean was talking about existed. It was called the OTSSC. It was in Halifax. It had a mental health clinic on the fifth floor. It was a physical hospital. It had physiotherapy and, in case you knocked somebody's teeth out, it had a dental clinic. The one-stop shop that we needed for veterans existed. It was called the OTSSC, and then somebody said, “We need to reinvent the wheel.” I'm sorry, once again, but we're banging drums that have been banged so much they've got holes in them. Sorry.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you, Mr. White.

Up next we have MP Lalonde, please, for five minutes.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to start by thanking all the witnesses for their presentations. They shared their perspectives in a transparent and unique manner.

I come from a social work background. I graduated a few years ago and I certainly appreciate all of you sharing the multidisciplinary approach to things as a possible recommendation for this committee.

Dr. Whelan, I want to go back to some of your years of experience. This is not to neglect Ms. Evanshen's role as a caregiver as a spouse, but perhaps you can give a little bit more of your perspective on the children and teens within that family unit and on how they themselves are possibly the caregivers of that veteran. Perhaps you would like to share a little bit more on that front and maybe some recommendations that we can make as a committee.

[Dr. John Whelan]

When it comes to military families, we know that children and adolescents in military families take on responsibilities. Everybody chips in with the idea of “team”. So when those families leave service, those children already know those roles. When there's distress in the families, what we've [Technical difficulty—Editor] boys who were really trying to protect the family, or trying to protect the mom, trying to keep the dad kind of on an even keel. They're beyond us trying to offer individual services. There is very little available for them.

We didn't treat younger children. I have a colleague who tells me often about the level of devastation among these children because of the lack of predictability and control.

Again, I come back to the idea of case management. Case management means not managing files; it means going into families, doing a comprehensive needs assessment, and ruling out the effects of military service—not ruling it in, but making sure [Technical difficulty—Editor] attributable to military service there.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Thank you very much for your in-depth recommendation, I hope, for my colleagues here.

Ms. Evanshen, I think some of my colleagues made reference to your current status. You did share that you are a common-law partner. You're saying there's a difference, if I understood you correctly, between being a spouse married under the law, if I may, versus a common-law partner. I know you made reference to Quebec. Is that particular to Quebec, or is that something systemically problematic with the policies currently in place?

[Tracy Lee Evanshen]

From what we've seen at this point, it's not the same over everything. If you talk to the military, it's one answer. If you talk to VAC, it's another answer. There's no consistency. For me, being common law, there is no consistency on my status, if you will. Especially since I met Kevin after he was age 60, it's almost as though, as Gerry mentioned, I don't even exist. They kind of laugh: “See you.” There was some gold-digger clause that I believe was created in 1901. That makes a lot of sense in today's day and age.

I hope that answered your question.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Well, I'm going to go back and ask what you would recommend we change in terms of ensuring that the way we are making you feel, and the sentiments you're expressing, are not there any more for others, and hopefully you, in terms of benefiting from our recommendations.

[Tracy Lee Evanshen]

Thank you.

I think there has to be a deep dive into post policies that are so antiquated it's ridiculous. Yes, I'm sure 100-odd years ago with the gold-digger clause people were trying to coat-tail on the benefits of veterans and dying veterans. That's not the case any more. That's not to mention the fact that veterans are living longer than they were before. They're lost in the shuffle. I'm 50, and God willing Kevin will be with me for some time, but he has a lot of medical issues. Right now we scramble because we're not married. We couldn't get married because of COVID. We were planning on it.

We don't know. We're so left up in the air. That's just another layer on top of having to deal with PTSD and crazy neighbours and medical things that.... For Kevin, he feels he can't take care of us if something happens to him.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Thank you for sharing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Up next for two and a half minutes is MP Desilets, please.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My last question is for Mr. White and Ms. Evanshen.

I want you to explain something to me. You're both experienced people and your comments make sense. You know about helping veterans and you're on top of things.

Good grief! Can you explain why the government isn't listening to you?

My question is simple: why?

You each have one minute to answer my question.

[Tracy Lee Evanshen]

I don't even know what to say. I believe if someone hasn't walked in your shoes, they honestly have no idea of the journey. Most people are too self-absorbed—not everybody—so they don't see the picture, they don't care, and everybody is falling by the wayside. People just don't care.

[Gerry White]

I have a plan, Tracy.

[Tracy Lee Evanshen]

Thank you, Gerry.

[Gerry White]

I can come up to Ontario if I forge your partner's birth certificate. I can perform the wedding ceremony, and that should put everything just about right.

This is what we have to resort to, folks. That's the kind of way we have to think.

I'm very sorry, but I'm just trying to help out a fellow casualty here.