Veterans Affairs Committee on May 10th, 2021

[Corinne MacLellan]

Absolutely, and thank you so much, MP Casey. I did have a lot of that in my first draft, but I realized my time was so short that I had to edit it down.

To say that this commemorative work during the commemorative period changed my life would be an understatement. I did touch on it. With the representatives for Belgium who I met, we built up a kinship, but actually what they did was to say, “Wow, we have such a close relationship with our Canadian brothers and sisters that we need to really make a better effort in Canada to highlight what we're doing to commemorate them.” I said, “I'm here to help you”, so we embarked on a three-year program. I did eight missions. I took largely Canadian media to the battlefields of Belgium. Mr. Brassard was talking about Vimy. I also was there for the centennial. Yes, these things are absolutely incredibly life-changing.

One of the things that has always struck me, and I guess part of the reason why The Last Steps.... It was so poignant for me to go to Ypres and the Menin Gate to see the Last Post ceremony at the Menin Gate. All of the people we are listening to on this call are not asking for a lot. They're asking for recognition in name for service. Nobody is asking for very much. That's my experience with the people I've been working with.

I don't know if it's because the Belgians are closer to a lot of these things, but the Last Post ceremony is a very effective way to address all of these battles that aren't in history books quite yet, the way they need to be. I know that Mr. Smith talked about this, and Mr. Windsor. Families can participate in that. They can be recognized every single night—I think we're at 40,000 nights in a row—at the Menin Gate. You can submit your family to the Last Post society, and your family can go there and be recognized.

If I'm being completely honest, when we put up the Last Steps, my hope was that we could have a program like that. It wouldn't have to be here in Halifax. It doesn't matter where it is—just in Canada. All of those people could be recognized in name for their service, and their families could grieve and have some closure. I'm sure that some of you on this call have been there for the Last Post ceremony. The sister monument idea was to create a portal between Belgium and Canada, because we have such a close kinship and they have such a reverence for our service.

I'll close really quickly, because I know that I don't have a lot of time. One point I wanted to make, which was in my original speech, was that I had a tour coming through the Flanders Fields museum and I had the opportunity to meet the curator there, Mr. Piet Chielens. He was so happy to meet us and so excited to talk with Canadian media, because his whole raison d'être in life was the two Canadian soldiers who were buried near his home in the Belgium countryside. He went into this line of work because he had to research those brothers, and then he went on to become the curator of the Flanders Fields museum. He then met a man named Peter Jackson and worked very closely with him on They Shall Not Grow Old. He was just poignant in the way he spoke to the media that day about the impact of Canada on that country.

It is just the most unique experience you can have as a Canadian to go there and be recognized in the way that we are and to feel the service. It's not something that we see in history books. It's something that you really feel. That's why I think that for Vimy 100 it was so incredibly important for those 25,000 young people and Canadians to go there and really feel and see what that recognition looks like.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Ms. MacLellan, I've been to the Menin Gate twice in my parliamentary responsibilities. You did a great job of expressing what you feel as a Canadian there.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Up next we have MP Desilets, please.

You have two and a half minutes.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Windsor, as a military historian, you are very familiar with archiving procedures.

In your opinion, what historical time period is the basis for the classification of documents detailing military operations? How does this vary?

[Dr. Lee Windsor]

Thank you for the question.

Actually in just the last couple of weeks, I sent some emails to my colleague, who is the government historian on the commemoration advisory group, on this issue. I'm not sure if he's testified before the committee or not; he is Dr. Steve Harris, the senior historian for the directorate of history and heritage at CAF. We're starting to send feelers out to Library and Archives Canada to see about declassification of unit records. We're probably only going to be able to go up to the 1950s and 1960s, or maybe the early 1970s. The reason we're doing this speaks to the issue we've all been speaking about, which is how to engage young people.

I've been taking groups of students and soldiers on staff rides and study tours for 25 years. Every time we take people overseas to France, Flanders, Italy and Germany, they have those personal experiences. The way we accelerate them is to make it personal, to have them pick a personnel file and be able to engage with archival information about a family member, someone from their town or from their provincial or regional regiment.

That same formula is the recipe for how we do this in the future to build connections that leverage student interest. Don't force them to learn something. Let them pick what they want to learn by harnessing their connection to Canada's military past, because they all have one.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Is it in some way detrimental to veterans that there is not more openness in that regard or that it may not be possible to get one's hands on the archival content?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Give a very quick answer, please.

[Dr. Lee Windsor]

The message we're hearing is that UN declassification is more complicated than straight Canadian government declassification because of our service and participation with our NATO and UN allies. We're going through a process, but you can help the process. I suspect that a committee recommendation and endorsement for declassification would go a long way, so put that on your to-do list, please.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you, Mr. Windsor.

Up next, we have MP Blaney for two and half minutes, please.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

We'll put it on our to-do list, for sure.

Sean, I'll come back to you. From your perspective, would the recording and sharing of memory be limited only to veterans?

[Sean Smith]

No, definitely not. My grandmother sent three of her men across—my grandfather, my father and myself. My mother did that twice.

The stories from the home front are just as impactful as the stories from overseas and the front line. The stories of a Silver Cross mother are invaluable to making an impression on people of what it's like to actually lose somebody you love overseas. It has to be part of the record.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

All the work you do in reaching out to young people.... I know the amazing work you do here in our community with cadets. I also appreciate that. Can you just tell us why you to it?

[Sean Smith]

It's because it needs to be done.

We don't carry memory just in us. We carry it in our children. I learned everything I learned about my military family history from my parents and from my grandparents. My children know about military history because I was part of it. I was in Germany when the wall came down. I was in Cyprus when the UN got the Nobel Peace Prize. I was at Oka. I'm part of Canadian history. My family is part of Canadian history. My family carries the post-nominal title, United Empire, given to us by Queen Victoria for the service of Sergeant Perry during the American Revolution. It's all part of us and every Canadian has that connection to that history.

It's to be able to give Canadians access to all that archival information, help get this stuff declassified and then connect soldiers and families so that they can tell the story. I found medals at a pawn shop and had them mounted and put into a frame, so that I could give them to a family who has lost the medals. It connected their family to the history of a family member who served.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much.

I'm afraid that's time, Rachel. Thank you.

Next we have MP Davidson, for five minutes, please.

[Scot Davidson, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Good afternoon, witnesses, and thanks very much.

Lieutenant-Colonel, Halifax seems like it's got a lot going on. There must be so much federal funding going out there. I thought for sure that you were going to talk about the Sherman tank called Hellfire. I've followed that along with much interest. I am wondering if you were at all part of that memorial with the tank.

[Corinne MacLellan]

Yes, I was. You are all covering off everything I had to edit out of my speaking remarks, so thank you.

It was not an entirely simple operation. It was a little bit tenuous when we had it on the crane at the CN rail yard. CN was approached to return the tank to B.C. Obviously, it's a pre “end of an era” tank.

I also sit on the board of the army museum, so I was able to lean on my dear friend Ken Hynes, again, for some of the pedigree attached to that. The folks at CN were accommodating, but we didn't have any subject matter experts there. It was a little bit of an exercise, an intermodal exercise, because it involved trucks, trains and everything, but it was really quite something to be a part of.

[Scot Davidson, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Thanks for that. I want to let you know I appreciated that. I was following along, and I'm sure there were some obstacles.

Lee, we're actually spending, I think, around $1 billion on the new Centre Block with the huge visitor's centre, and a whole new Centre Block here in Ottawa. There are so many commemorative things that take place in Ottawa.

Has the government or have you been a part of any consultations on improving the stories and the commemorative centre in the new Centre Block, including the huge new visitor's centre that we're going to have there now?

[Dr. Lee Windsor]

Well, you're scratching a New Brunswick itch of mine about the amount of investment in Ottawa and Ontario versus.... It's wonderful. In the CAG, we've been dealing with the Afghanistan memorial. I'm a jury member on that issue, as well.

Your question speaks to the challenge we have there. How do you build a memorial for Afghan veterans, and for the people of Canada, that's going to be in Ottawa? Not everyone is going to get to it in their lifetime. It speaks to the central problem that this committee has, that we have, that all of us have who are interested in this commemoration.

How can we create a variety of programming that will reach every kid, every household and every citizen, even in remote and rural parts of Canada? Making digital content, digital learning, available to people is clearly the way to do it. The challenge we have is that there are many people in the space, and they're not necessarily talking to one another.

[Scot Davidson, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Let's hope they all get talking to each other, and we create a great commemorative centre in the new Centre Block.

James, I have a Silver Cross mother who works for me. We're always struggling to see more commemoration for Afghanistan vets.

Is it time, James, that they have their own Book of Remembrance?

[James D. McMullin]

I'm not really sure of the question. As I said before, I was too young for Afghanistan.

I sit here and listen to everybody speaking. I lived in Belgium. I was at Vimy Ridge so often that it just passes over my head. I have visited the Somme Valley. Yes, when you get into anything, we should remember. Yes, we should remember today as well as yesterday. That's why—

[Scot Davidson, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Thanks, James.

[James D. McMullin]

Sorry, I talk too much.

[Scot Davidson, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

No, no, you don't. It's all good. Thanks, James. I appreciate that.

I will go back to the Lieutenant-Colonel and all the good work you've done with Belgium. I don't know if you've heard of the Westlake Brothers Souvenir Association. It brings students over from France. I am wondering if there's more work we can do with other countries.

You have a commemorative called The Last Steps. It's a memorial, and the association has done one in Belgium. Is there more teaming up the Government of Canada can do with other countries to innovate, and have more people visit Canada? We can visit there, and drive the whole process.

[Corinne MacLellan]

Absolutely. They have actual bodies, Holland and Belgium in particular. They have budgets that are dedicated to Canadian commemoration, so they work a little bit more strategically to unlock that and co-operate. I did it for three years. We did a lot of things on a shoestring. It's just a matter of getting there, and getting them here too. It's a two-way street. We definitely want them to come here. It was part of putting up The Last Steps. It was a portal idea. You have to come back this way, and spend some tourist dollars in Canada.

[Scot Davidson, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Thank you so much. We'll lean on MP Fillmore for more budget.