Veterans Affairs Committee on May 10th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 25 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

Today's meeting, of course, is taking place in a hybrid format.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on October 27, 2020, the committee is resuming its study on the strategy for commemorations in the 21st century.

Welcome to all the witnesses who have taken time out of their day to join us and help us with this study today.

I will introduce all of you individually. Then we'll do a round of opening remarks, five minutes from each of you. Then we'll go into questions.

Appearing as individuals we have Lieutenant-Colonel Jacques Borne. We also have retired Major James D. McMullin; retired Master Corporal Sean Smith; and Lee Windsor, associate professor of history, Gregg Centre for the Studies of War and Society, University of New Brunswick. Representing The Halifax Rifles, we have Corinne MacLellan, honorary lieutenant-colonel.

Thank you to all of you for being here today.

As I said, each witness will have five minutes for opening remarks. After, we'll proceed with rounds of questions. When you get to the one-minute mark I'll be holding up my signal for one minute left. Don't panic, a minute is a long time to wrap up your thoughts, but please do conclude your remarks. One of my roles is the official interrupter. I do apologize in advance for those whom I have to interrupt to play referee today.

Lieutenant-Colonel Jacques Borne, the next five minutes are all yours, sir.

[Lieutenant-Colonel, Retired) Jacques Borne (As an Individual]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Should we abolish the November 11 commemorations? What is the purpose of military commemorations? Do we want to abolish this holiday? Did we bring our children to the cenotaph on November 11 prior to the pandemic?

I give presentations to high school students during Veterans' Week and I bring with me special guests, such as a corporal who was injured in Afghanistan. Our current generation looks at the past differently. It is not unusual to commemorate happy events such as the end of the war, the rescinding of a discriminatory law, or the prowess of an inventor or a hero.

Commemorations can be national or local events, which are held on a regular or occasional basis. A commemoration is an official ceremony organized to retain in our natural consciousness an event of collective history and to serve as an example or model. It engages the entire country. Senior officials must attend commemorations and gather together citizens to enhance the collective memory. Commemorations give rise to events that take place outside of the ceremony. National ceremonies commemorate the memory of different facts, great men, combatants, and civil and military victims.

I am currently a board member of the National Field of Honour, the military cemetery in Pointe-Claire. More than 22,000 soldiers of all ranks have been laid to rest there and many commemorative ceremonies are held there. I am certain that one third of those present here today are not even aware of the existence of this special cemetery in Pointe-Claire.

I attend many commemorations especially as a member of the 3rd Montreal Field Battery of Artillery and also as the person in charge of the museum. It is a mobile museum. We have three trucks dating back to 1943, three 25-pounder cannons, a Jeep ambulance and, believe it or not, two 1818 cannons, and it is all in working order. The 3rd Montreal Field Battery of Artillery goes to 10 different locations during Veterans' Week. We participate in the St. Patrick's Day Parade in Montreal. We are often invited to national holiday celebrations. We participate in municipal holiday celebrations. Every year, the 3rd Montreal Field Battery of Artillery starts the IRONMAN Mont Tremblant by firing a cannon.

We have a mobile museum that is not officially recognized. Why. According to an archaic law, to be part of the Canadian museum network as an official museum, the vehicle or cannon must be anchored to concrete and not be operational. Yet our vehicles and cannons are artifacts and we use them constantly to train and inform people.

There are 30 members, former members of the military, who volunteer for these activities more than 30 times between May and November each year.

As the funeral director for the Association du Royal 22^e Régiment, I regularly meet with the families of deceased soldiers and look after funerals.

I am telling you about all these activities to show you that commemorations are still important in Canada.

Lest we forget. Ubique.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much, sir.

Up next for five minutes, we have retired major Mr. James McMullin.

[James D. McMullin, Major (retired), As an Individual]

My name is Jim McMullin. I'm 82 years old, and I served my country faithfully and honourably in a military uniform for 38 years: 17 in the ranks, 21 as an officer and the last 10 as a major. My position within the military was financial administration.

My dad went ashore on D-Day and fought in France, Belgium, Holland and Germany. My oldest brother died in Germany, a lance corporal serving at Soest. He is buried in Hanover, a product of the Cold War. My younger brother served 25 years, including in Cyprus, and my sister Winnifred Chafe was selected as a sponsor of the ship HMCS Glace Bay.

Too young for Korea and too old for Afghanistan, I have served Canada from Victoria in the west to Halifax in the east, which included two tours in isolation, in Pagwa River and Moosonee. I was taken by DOT helicopter to Moosonee, as a representative of the Canadian Forces and as a universal blood donor, to give blood on at least eight to 10 occasions. I also served five years outside of Canada: two years with Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe and three years in headquarters at the Canadian Forces Base at Lahr, Germany.

I have been married to the same lady for 62 years, who has supported me in my military life while raising three sons through 12 moves. In retirement, I have no contact with the military nor with any political organization. I have, however, spent my retirement promoting the work of Canada's military. For these initiatives, I have been recognized on television and in newspapers. They include books I wrote: one on a First World War Victoria Cross recipient, one on wartime airmen from Cape Breton and one on Cold War veterans. I have also made approximately 40,000 placemats depicting all aspects of our past and present military, for display in our son's restaurant in the weeks leading up to Remembrance Day.

However, the reason for my presentation before this committee is to convince Veterans Affairs that they have an obligation within their mandate to promote recognition and remembrance for all veterans.

The seventh Book of Remembrance is a commemoration that keeps with the original intent of all Books of Remembrance, that is, to be a substitute grave for loved ones who may never be able to visit the actual grave of a husband, son, daughter or other relative to see their name inscribed in memory. My brother is interned in a grave in Hanover. He was killed in an automobile accident and is not in the Book of Remembrance. There is no substitute grave where his family might ever recognize his death.

In the early fifties, to support its obligation within NATO, Canada moved land-based troops to northern Germany as a component of the British army on the Rhine, while the air division was set up in France and southern Germany. From the onset of the mission, the number of deaths among our military serving to fulfill our Cold War commitment was a problem, with the first occurring in the northern sector in December 1951. Eventually, in total, over 200 were buried in Germany and 300-plus were buried in France, Denmark and Great Britain.

Any death in the military is investigated. A board of inquiry determines if the death was directly attributable to the military and, if so, generally provides survivor benefits. There is also a summary investigation, which goes deeper and could include legal action. Their results were never used for entrance into a Book of Remembrance.

Initially, when the seventh Book of Remembrance was approved, I, like many Canadians, understood it would include the names of all military members killed and buried outside Canada since the sixth Book of Remembrance. My brother's exclusion only came to my attention after my younger brother attended the Memorial Chamber in the Peace Tower in Ottawa with the intention of viewing his older brother's name. However, it is not there.

Over the next 10 years, I reviewed every military cemetery in Europe with interned Canadians and cross-referenced the graves with the seventh Book of Remembrance. I have learned that approximately 396 of our serving members are not remembered. The Book of Remembrance was commissioned to give those miliary personnel and their family a memorial in Canada, the nation for which they served. For example, the Book of Remembrance for the Second World War includes those killed in action, those who died as a result of accidents or illness while in service and those who subsequently died of injuries relating to service.

Why are those who died during the Cold War treated differently? In Europe in the old days, our troops faced a defeated and sometimes defiant society. I personally witnessed this during our first tour in Europe in 1971 while trying to find my brother's grave near Hanover, which was considered a hotbed of animosity. I was driving a vehicle with SHAPE's—Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe—Belgium plates. We were chased, hollered at and refused accommodations in a hotel, to the extent that our children were terrified. If it was so terrible in 1971, what was it like in Hanover in the early fifties?

The high rate of deaths among our military, with the exception of air accidents investigated separately, was probably caused by a combination of events, including cultural adjustment, boredom, highway speeds, alcohol and animosity created by a defeated society. For example, an area around Werl, Germany, was named “suicide corner”, revealing the carnage suffered by our military members. Similar deaths were occurring in the south, where our air element was located.

To resolve some issues, recreation specialists were even tasked with requesting local families to take in military members for visits during holidays. In the case of my brother, a Dutch family volunteered. They had made friends with Canadian soldiers who liberated their village on the road to Nijmegen during the Second World War. It is possible that he was coming back from visiting them when he was killed.

I have used all my resources to get the names of all deceased veterans who were posted, died and buried outside Canada during the Cold War into the seventh Book of Remembrance, but I have failed. In reviewing your strategy, I will pass on the hope that you will take the time to appreciate the meaning of the Books of Remembrance and use your power to ensure all deceased veterans who were posted in foreign lands and where they died—for whatever reason—and are buried, are given a place of remembrance in the nation they served and will always be remembered.

This appearance is the culmination of a quest that has occupied more than 10 years of my life. There were times, based on negative responses I have received from both Veterans Affairs and the Legion, that I wanted to quit. However, I still believe that all war veterans who have died serving overseas—where they were sent and are buried—deserve to be properly thanked by their entrance into the seventh Book of Remembrance. Further, their families deserve to have them returned home, at least symbolically. This committee has the power to make this happen, and I'm sure it would be met with approval from the hundreds and perhaps thousands of relatives and friends of the deceased.

At this time, honourable Chair, I will end with a plea to all present. All our deceased veterans buried outside Canada deserve to be remembered. They died while representing Canada, but some are completely forgotten. Please use your power to get them remembered.

I thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you, Mr. McMullin.

Up next we have Mr. Sean Smith, retired master corporal.

Mr. Smith, go ahead for five minutes, please.

[Sean Smith, Master Corporal (retired), As an Individual]

Mr. Chair, vice-chairs, honourable members, good afternoon.

My name is Sean Smith. I served in the Canadian Forces primary reserve as an armoured crewman, with the British Columbia Dragoons and the South Alberta Light Horse, from 1986 to 2001. Thirteen of my 15 years of service were full-time, including tours of duty with the United Nations in Cyprus and NATO in Germany.

I am the ninth generation of my family to serve Crown and country, dating back to Sergeant Robert Perry, a Loyalist who served with Jessup’s Loyal Rangers during the American Revolution. My family has been involved in almost every Canadian conflict, foreign and domestic, from the War of 1812 to the end of the Cold War. For me and my family, remembrance is not a day or a month in the year, it is every day.

It is with this history in mind that I have the honour of presenting my suggestions on how we, as a nation, can better remember those who have served and sacrificed for Canada, while continuing to recognize the ongoing service of those who proudly wear the uniform of our country today.

Veterans, serving or retired, are living history of our nation in war and peace. Unlike memorials of stone or steel, they have the ability to share the experiences of wars fought and peacetime duties done. Growing up, I listened to my father telling me stories of service in the UN in the Belgian Congo in 1963-64, and I read my great-grandfather’s memoirs of serving with Sam Steele in South Africa during the Boer War. It is these stories that connect me to remembrance. While well-known stories of valour and sacrifice of some of our nation’s heroes are important, they are not stories that directly connect the majority of our youth—the carriers of our memory—to our collective history.

I am sure MP Brassard can attest to the difference between a child simply seeing a firefighter and a child who has a chance to talk to a firefighter or watch them work. I am sure that member of MP Samson can attest to the difference between a child learning something from a book and a child learning something from an experience in person. Making those connections embeds a memory with meaning.

Throughout our country, there are people and organizations that have committed themselves to creating living memories. Al Cameron, of Veterans Voices of Canada, has been recording veterans and their stories for years, so they do not get lost in time. The Memory Project, an initiative of Historica Canada, works to connect veterans to schools and organizations, allowing veterans to tell their stories and experiences first-hand. They are people who are passionate about ensuring these memories never get lost or forgotten. I strongly believe that connecting these organizations to the government resources, archives and support, aiding them in furthering their efforts and supporting their passion, will help ensure that so many of these stories will be shared and recorded and not lost to the ages.

As a person who works with youth, I can tell you with certainty that to engage our youth in remembrance, we need to make a greater effort to connect them to that remembrance. We need to challenge and aid our youth to discover their own connections to the history of war and peace in our country. A youth who looks at a photo of the Vimy Ridge memorial might remember it. A youth who looks at a photo of Vimy Ridge and says that his great-great-grandfather fought at Vimy Ridge, that will most definitely be remembered.

In closing, I would like to stress my belief that the future of remembrance does not lie in the hands of you and me. While vital to remembrance, memorials and markers are only physical touchpoints to the people and places of our past. To create real remembrance, we must work harder to connect our youth and citizens to those who are the living memory of our history, as well as connecting them to their own family’s part in that history.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you, Mr. Smith.

Dr. Windsor, you have five minutes, sir.

[Dr. Lee Windsor, Associate Professor of History, Gregg Centre for the Studies of War and Society, University of New Brunswick, As an Individual]

Honourable members of the committee, thank you for this invitation to be heard on the question of the future of commemoration in Canada.

I'd like to acknowledge my fellow veterans here.

I'm here before you today as a professor of Canadian military history, which means I don't have to wear a tie. I'm the external historian on the Veterans Affairs commemoration advisory group, CAG. I'm also here as a veteran myself.

From all of these three perspectives, I see that the time is now to recognize today's veterans. That is going to require substantial effort and a rethink, given how the vast part of our commemoration energy focuses on those who served in the First and Second World Wars, and, to a lesser extent, Korea.

You know it. All of you know it. The days when parades were full of First and Second World War veterans are long gone and our Korean veterans are aging. Thankfully, it seems that more and more younger veterans are showing up on November 11 to fill the ranks. Sometimes it's on parade, but often it's standing quietly in the crowd, maybe with their ribbons fixed on a civilian jacket, like Corporal Smith.

The problem we face is that the Remembrance Day and Veterans Week traditional program was conceived for and by those who collectively endured two world wars. They shaped the social and cultural practice that was meant to help them endure the traumatic loss of so many thousands of their friends and family members who lay in cemeteries that they could never visit. The people who remember that loss and who gather to remember on Remembrance Day are now the minority. The majority of Canadians who remain, including so many new Canadians who come from places that experienced the two world wars very differently than our country did, need new ways to understand Canada's past.

Most importantly, today's veterans need to see change. They need to see themselves in commemoration programming. I've had the good fortune, through service on the commemoration advisory group, to attend summits with representatives of dozens of modern veterans organizations who speak for tens of thousands of Canadian Armed Forces members who served after Korea. It is clear from those conversations that modern veterans are not asking anyone to forget about those defining world war experiences, or to stop acknowledging the accomplishment or the loss from those two conflicts. Most of the veterans I know, myself included, are proud to be associated with the achievements of our predecessors. The military culture on our bases, in our units and in our traditions constantly reminds serving and retired members of the Canadian Armed Forces that they carry on that legacy. You've heard that message already today.

However, members who served since then have also accomplished great things. Sometimes you might not be able to see the impact they made in Cyprus or Bosnia. They couldn't see it at the time because the result wasn't clear until years after they came home. It's high time we helped people understand what modern Canadian veterans have done for the country. Modern veterans need it for their good health. To endure extreme stress, armed conflict and danger, and to bear witness to the suffering of innocent people in dozens of war zones around the world without recognition or validation from one's fellow citizens or from one's prime minister creates a potential for an injury to the soul.

I know that Veterans Affairs staff have recognized internally the need for a new commemoration strategy. Our commemoration advisory group agreed and helped to shape and draft the strategy that I believe you have all been briefed on.

The problem to solve for the staff and for the CAG is how to bring these new stories into the equation and not abandon the old or forget Canada's wartime accomplishments and losses. The solution, I think, is simple. It is not to give up one for the other, but to fully integrate them and draw out the continuities and the issues of cause and consequence.

The concept we see is that, from 1914 to the present, there is a clear pattern of Canada playing a major role in international coalitions seeking to maintain peace, order and stability in the face of armed aggression, from rallying to the defence of Belgium from foreign invasion in 1914, to Poland in 1939, all the way through to Afghanistan and the current missions in Iraq and elsewhere. There is a clear link to post-1949 missions. They're designed to achieve the same goals, albeit in the face of different and varied challenges.

Members in more recent decades served the same ideals and the same goals, to protect Canadians at home and to build a better and more stable world, and to stand up to those who would use armed aggression as a political tool. The danger for them was ever present, even when bullets did not fly.

Sure, the nature of military service in the last 70 years got a heck of a lot more complicated. It is harder to demonstrate the impact of service. You cannot point to the hill capture or the city liberated from Nazi occupation. Success, on many of these missions, comes when things grow quiet, or stay quiet, however tense.

Our greatest challenge in getting this message across is a lack of awareness, because Canadians did not share in these modern conflicts with veterans the way that the whole nation went through the two world wars as one people—well, that's a debatable issue. It will take much work to help people today see all the ways that modern Canadian veterans have served, to build meaningful understanding of what Canada has asked its soldiers, sailors and aircrew to do on our behalf. They have always stood ready to do whatever was asked of them, from rescuing people in disaster zones through to going to war under the United Nations' authority.

Clearly, the consensus growing here is to target that programming on public education, because reaching the next generation in the classroom is the best way to ensure that the service of all veterans is understood first, then integrated and then maybe remembered. I see that this strategy can reach new Canadians who have moved here from every part of the globe, often fleeing from wars in the aftermath of war and destruction in their own countries. Many of those new Canadians might be able to relate to Canadian Forces' peace and stability missions or humanitarian aid missions in the past 70 years, and that might, in turn, generate their interest in the longer history of CAF service in the two world wars.

Last, I want to add that veterans do not want the story sugar-coated. They want their efforts recognized, in honest terms, so that Canadians might understand what they did and what they endured. This can go a long way towards their health and well-being.

Thank you for your time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you, Mr. Windsor.

Up next is Honorary Lieutenant-Colonel MacLellan.

The next five minutes are all yours.

[Corinne MacLellan, Honorary Lieutenant-Colonel, The Halifax Rifles]

Thank you to the steering committee members and you, Chair May, for this opportunity to provide testimony.

My earliest understanding of commemorating and respecting the sacrifice of those who serve came naturally growing up in Cape Breton. I know I'm not alone on this call today, Mr. McMullin.

My grandmother named her sons after family members lost in the First World War and had several brothers who served in the Second World War. In our community, men like Dr. Mike Laffin never spoke of their service, when their heroics were undeniable and often spoken of by others.

My father joined the effort to restore the World War II installation in New Victoria as a tribute to these service members. Fort Petrie remains there today. The founding members of that volunteer committee still operate it as a seasonal museum on one of the most beautiful stretches of coastline in North America, but I am biased in that, I think.

Remembering where you come from is baked into your DNA in Cape Breton, which stays with a person for life, no matter where you call home.

A little more than seven years ago, while having coffee with a colleague, she mentioned something that resonated very deeply with me. “Do you know that thousands of Canadians all went to war from right here?” We were sitting just a stone's throw away from the Halifax harbour. Of course, we all know that the Canadian Armed Forces have a long and proud history in Halifax; however, it had never occurred to me that thousands of those who lost their lives in the Great War in fact took their last steps on Canadian soil on the Halifax waterfront. It was a profound realization for both of us as we sat there. The images of the feelings of people, not far from where we were, saying their last or forever goodbyes weighed heavily on both of us.

There was no big event, no marker of this particular place as a sacred ground that captures the far-reaching impact of those goodbyes. Thousands of people would visit the Halifax waterfront and leave, not knowing of this significance outside of it being a tremendous tourist destination with proud Maritime traditions and also historically connected to one of the largest man-made explosions which, of course, only happened because of the city's pivotal role in the Great War. Those are dots that are not always connected for everyone, including our kids who are in grade school.

War museums around the world do this on such a grand scale. Here in Halifax, I felt that we also had sacred ground for the nation that we could mark. We all felt, as sort of an ad hoc committee that we formed, that it should be acknowledged in some meaningful way.

Initially I was told that the government didn't do monuments or infrastructure any longer, so we collected, or re-collected, ourselves, and we thought perhaps we could stage a re-enactment of troops marching from the armoury to the Halifax waterfront, as they would have 100 years ago, to mark the centennial. That idea was rife with problems and logistical issues, and we ran out of time.

Then, on meeting some local military historians, I was introduced to Ken Hynes, curator at the army museum in Halifax Citadel. I shared the idea of somehow marking these last steps. We talked about trying to do something, anything that was low cost, that we could practically shoulder ourselves as volunteers.

Then there was a conversation I had with Nancy Keating, a dear friend, a well-known artist and someone with a very proud history of family service. In an instant, she seemed to elevate the entire discussion, literally and figuratively, and began sketching at that table what would become the Last Steps Memorial Arch that stands on the Halifax waterfront today.

It was at this point that it seemed possible, but even the most modest of ideas took what felt like a Herculean effort to get people to see how easily this could be and why it was so important for so many.

One of those people was Andy Fillmore, in his previous tenure in the province of Nova Scotia. He and his colleagues seemed to embrace this idea without reservation for what felt like the first time in all of the discussions we were having. I had always held the centennial of the departure of the 25th Battalion from the Halifax waterfront in May 1915 as an artificial deadline for kind of giving up trying to do something. It was fast approaching May 2015, and you don't get another chance at a centennial—or I don't think anybody's figured out that science yet.

Nancy then developed a conceptual drawing of an arch reminiscent of the gangways that connected the ocean liners seconded into service during wartime, as well as the historic victory arches of Europe. The illustration was breathtaking. Pier 21, Parks Canada and so many people and organizations could really see the vision now. It was something that was understated but powerfully meaningful with just three words that said it all: The Last Steps.

We unveiled the concept on the centennial of that fateful departure. However, we did not have one cent committed to the build. You could call it a gamble, I guess, but we believed others would see the importance, and they did. Halifax Foundation, the City of Halifax, Develop Nova Scotia—all supported the idea instantly. We did come to find out that the federal government would support maybe not the type of infrastructure that others maybe thought, but this was modest enough, I think. They became an anchor funder through ACOA.

Concurrently with this, I was introduced to some visiting representatives from Belgium. I shared with them the idea of our Last Steps. It seemed so small to them, as their country is just steeped with memorial tourism and is peppered with monuments, but they were on our team. They remained supportive from afar and we stayed in touch. I was able to visit them many times. I would learn that over 30,000 of our war dead are buried in Belgium. I could see first-hand how their graves are cared for and their stories are cherished. I wish every Canadian had the opportunity to visit these battlefields and the scarred but beautiful countryside of Flanders to feel that kind of pride. There's nothing like it.

Because of this, The Last Steps now has a sister arch in Belgium called Canada Gate, also of Nancy Keating's design. It is proudly in Passchendaele, the very place where Canadians fought in one of the most costly battles in our nation's history.

None of this would have been possible without the Army Museum, Major Ken Hynes, and so many bright lights along the way who kept pushing and putting one foot in front of the other. At times, I simply felt like a witness to it all. Whether it is The Last Steps, a ceremony, or a virtual event, the act of remembering, no matter how hard it may seem, can never compare with the service and sacrifice of our forefathers and mothers. These projects are worth doing for everyone, every year, and for every story there is to share. They are all sacred. Canadians have left an indelible mark around the world. It is our responsibility to uphold their memory in creative but, more importantly, meaningful ways.

In closing, two years ago I was given the greatest honour of my life when I was appointed as honorary lieutenant-colonel for the Halifax Rifles. It came as a great surprise. My learning curve continues to be quite steep. However, I have absolutely noted that for the men and women in my unit, seeing a nation that does not forget where it comes from can sometimes be payment enough. But we know that we can always do better. Our regimental motto is Cede nullis—yield to none. As a country, the least we can do is to be unyielding in our gratitude and in our support of those who serve today and to meaningfully commemorate the service of those who have passed.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much.

We'll go right into the first round of questions,

First up is MP Wagantall for six minutes, please.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you so much, Chair.

Oh, my word; this is when I get really frustrated. We have so many phenomenal witnesses and such a small amount of time to even begin to try to respond to you all. Thank you so much for what you've shared with us today. I think if our young people heard even what we heard today, it would ignite something in them. That was so powerful. Thank you.

Mr. McMullin, thank you so much, right off the top, for everything you've shared, and the passion and the personal connection you have to this opportunity you have taken to make a difference, in regard to our Books of Remembrance. I wrote down twice through your conversation, about the 396 not remembered, “Why not? Why not?” Later on you expressed your frustration, and about almost stopping your efforts, with the reasons that were expressed by VAC and the Legion. Could you tell us a little bit more about the rationale for not recognizing these individuals in their service to Canada?

[James D. McMullin]

This is the book I produced, and you can see it lists everybody who died, and the difference being the ones who are left out.

To answer your question, I have no idea. I wrote to the Legion, I wrote to Veterans Affairs, I wrote to the Secretary General of NATO in Brussels, because I was there, and I wrote to everybody else in between.

Along the way, I even produced a booklet about the air force people who died in New Waterford. I have done everything possible, but I have given up. I hate to say this in front of people, but I think Veterans Affairs is a dictatorship that does what they want. I have no connection with them.

When my dad came back from overseas in 1945 or 1946, there were seven of us boys in one bed and three girls in the next bed. Veterans Affairs got my dad a beautiful home. It's still in our name today. There was no indoor bathroom. Veterans Affairs got him, with a shortage of iron, a septic tank in Saint John, New Brunswick and had it shipped to Glace Bay.

When my mother died at the age of 48, Veterans Affairs helped my dad get a job as a cleaner in the post office. He left the coal mines and worked in the post office. I had the utmost respect for Veterans Affairs, but I don't anymore.

Why? Why have they done this? There's no cost to it.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Sir, are you saying that you never heard any response back to your inquiry?

[James D. McMullin]

I had all kinds. I left them in the other room. Some of them I shredded. Some of them ignored my intelligence with the responses I had. The answer comes right at the last sentence—no, they shall not be remembered.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you for not giving up and for giving us an opportunity today to be challenged.

[James D. McMullin]

Thank you very much.

Just remember, I'm 82 years old.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Gotcha. Thank you so much.

I have time, I hope, for one more question at least.

[James D. McMullin]

I'm sorry I took up so much time.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

No, you were wonderful. Thank you so much.

Let's see, there were conversations here, and I've highlighted some things that were said.

No recognition or validation equals “injury to the soul”. That is something, Mr. Windsor, you had expressed. I think we've heard that during other testimony in regard to those who have been left out significantly.

Do you want to just elaborate a little bit more on that? That was a profound statement to me, because I believe that to be true.

[Dr. Lee Windsor]

I believe it to be one of the most important issues on the table here. We know that moral injury is a component of mental wellness. I'm not sure if you've been introduced to that term with regard to it being a component of post-traumatic stress injury or disorder or operational stress injuries.

Certainly, we have seen it be an aggravating factor in recent suicide cases for veterans who have served in Afghanistan, many of whom have questions about their service there and whether or not it.... Given that the entire world is now looking with interest to determine the outcome of that mission, in the absence of government recognition of that service in Afghanistan, veterans are left to their own devices to fall back on media statements that it was a waste and a failure. Therefore, if you pulled the trigger and killed someone, or if you lost a fellow soldier in combat or suffered an injury yourself, posing the question to yourself as to whether it may not have been worth it in the first instance is a powerful burden to put on someone.

That's Afghanistan. Afghanistan is a case where there has been some degree of public recognition, even if it's grassroots recognition from the people of Canada, as well as the government, at least in the early years of the war. But when I mention the case of injury to the soul, I think mainly about those veterans who served in the 1990s, my own generation, and not just from personal bias but from an awareness that at the end of the Cold War, we saw a tremendous spike in global conflict and a tremendous ratcheting up of the level of violence. I'm sure Sean can attest to this too, from the look of the ribbons he's wearing on his chest, that peacekeeping became peacemaking. I'm sure you're familiar with this phenomenon. We see too the spike in mental illness and mental injuries and claims in Veterans Affairs as a result of the massive growth in exposure to combat trauma in Somalia, in the former Yugoslavia, in Cambodia and of course in Rwanda.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

I'm sorry, Mr. Windsor. I let you go on there for an extra minute.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

No problem. It's all good testimony, but I do have to interrupt, I'm afraid.

MP Lalonde, you have six minutes, please.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Hello everyone.

I would like to thank the witnesses for their testimony and their service to our country.

I want to say thank you to all of you for your hard work towards remembrance. Thank you, as well, to the veterans joining us today for your service and bravery.

Mr. Windsor, I have a question for you.

I understand that your work, and the work of the Gregg Centre at UNB, has been focused on Canada's military history, and you actually went to Afghanistan as a historian.

During your testimony, you mentioned the importance of veterans seeing themselves in commemoration, and you also reflected on the social differences between modern conflicts and traditional ones.

I was wondering if you could give us some insight into possibly what's missing on how commemoration of modern military engagements like Afghanistan and Bosnia should be handled, compared to the traditional conflicts of World War I, World War II and the Korean War.