Evidence of meeting #109 for Veterans Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was going.
A video is available from Parliament.
RAdm (Ret'd) Ken Summers
I don't know why the government doesn't recognize that it was a war, instead of a conflict or something like that. I don't know.
RAdm (Ret'd) Ken Summers
I wish I were a member of Parliament or a senator. Maybe I could do something about it.
Bloc
Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
In your opinion, is the only way to resolve this dilemma for Parliament to adopt legislation?
RAdm (Ret'd) Ken Summers
Of course. You can acknowledge the circumstances but it's up to the House of Commons to pass legislation.
It needs to pass a law, with the Minister of Veterans Affairs, to recognize that in fact it was a wartime service.
Bloc
Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
What's your reaction to the fact that soldiers awarded the Gulf and Kuwait Medal aren't allowed to wear it on their military uniform?
Bloc
Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
What do you think about the fact that veterans awarded the Gulf and Kuwait Medal apparently cannot wear it on their military uniform?
Bloc
RAdm (Ret'd) Ken Summers
When the question came up, everyone was very proud that we had served in the gulf and very pleased that we had been given medals by the Saudi Arabian government and other governments. I often thought that it's a piece of metal that you put on your chest, and as a Gulf War veteran, I pictured a grandchild on my knee who would say, “Papa, what is that?” and I could say, “Well, I was in the war.”
It didn't cost very much, but the reason we were only given one medal was that the Canadian government at the time, or National Defence, had decreed that the Canadian government had given you a medal, and therefore that's for your service in the gulf. Whatever was being given to you by Saudi Arabia, Bahrain or other places, you couldn't wear that one. You could only wear the one that Canada gave you. I don't agree with that.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Desilets.
Now let's go to MP Charlie Angus for six minutes, please.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Thank you, Chair.
What a pleasure to be at this committee. I want to thank you, gentlemen, for your service to our country.
I come from northern Ontario, home of the Algonquin Regiment. Many of our young people through the years have gone to the Royal Canadian Regiment, the Princess Patricia's, the Van Doos—lots went to the Van Doos—and the navy and the air force. There's an understanding that some may be in combat and some may not, but when they sign up, the understanding is that if there's a war, they and their families know that they are going to go and put their lives on the line. That's the contract. The contract with Canada has to be that once you have signed up, we will be there for you when you come home.
Do you feel that Canada has lived up to its part of the contract, Admiral Summers?
RAdm (Ret'd) Ken Summers
I think in many ways it has, in terms of providing benefits and looking after the families. Certainly, when we were over there, there was great care taken by our own military and the government, quite honestly, in recognizing there were implications for the families.
In terms of recognition, it's there. I guess what has failed to happen is the legislation to follow through, which in some cases, for those people who.... As I said, the thing called the Gulf War syndrome came up there, during the Gulf War. We didn't know what the heck it was, but it morphed into PTSD, which we all know about now. People had Gulf War syndrome. They had PTSD. We just didn't know it or recognize it.
The obligation now on behalf of the government is the fact that those types of ramifications of being in war need to be looked at and supported by the government.
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
I thank you for that response.
Certainly, I'm very proud of the Veterans Affairs workers in Kirkland Lake, in my region. I have had the honour to travel to commemorations in Sicily, Italy, and Normandy, and I've been told by many Europeans about how special it is, the way Canada commemorates, even compared to our allies.
I want to ask you an extension of the question on the Gulf War syndrome.
When I was elected, one of the first things I faced was that we were sending Canadians to what was called Operation Enduring Freedom. We were sending Canadians into Kandahar, and nobody called that special duty. We knew they were going to war. I realized then that the most important decision I might make in my career is sending people to face death or serious injury.
That was also the time when they changed the veterans from the pension to the lump sum payment. I remember thinking then, when I was much younger, that when you come back, maybe a lump sum doesn't seem so bad, but the effects start to happen as you get older. Certainly, in my office, I've dealt with many frontline workers and veterans for whom, through the years, it was long after that it started to affect them, and this is where we needed to be.
Could you talk to us about what you saw with the Gulf War syndrome, what we've seen in terms of our understanding of PTSD and why we need to frame the support and pension for a whole-of-life approach?
RAdm (Ret'd) Ken Summers
Again, you make an excellent point.
I was in Afghanistan a number of times, and I met some of the soldiers over there who got involved. I remember one who had his face all cut up because a bomb had gone off near him.
Yes, I know that, for a young soldier, sailor or airman, a lump sum payment is very attractive. They can go out and buy a car, a home or something like that, but you're correct that there are long-term ramifications. They need to have that long-term pension if they suffer those types of injuries. I think that's the key. We should be looking at that again.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
We've heard some excellent testimony on that from Sean Bruyea. He said that when we compare the benefits that all veterans had from World War I right up to 2006, they were covered under the Pension Act. Prior to that, there were other lifelong pensions in place.
He said:
There is one important aspect for a committee that cares about families, spouses and children: They were always compensated separately under the Pension Act. That changed in 2006, and since then, the situation has not improved. There is no extra money for a married person or a person with dependants or a person with children. In order to harmonize the benefits, yes, we know what the costs would be, and Parliament would not be happy about approving that, but it's an easy fix if we ignore the money part. All we have to do is replace the pain and suffering compensation under the Veterans Well-being Act with the Pension Act, and there, it's done.
That's his testimony. How do you see that?
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Okay, I was expecting you to give me a much harder, more complex answer, but it seems so simple, does it not?
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Ah, okay.
I want to follow up on that because, again, I've seen in my political career people who've come into my office who had extraordinary backgrounds, served us in dangerous theatres, served in all manners, then came home, and then things began to fall apart. Veterans Affairs was there, but for the family, the question is that they were also in combat when it wasn't recognized that they were in combat—again, special duty. They were on policing missions.
How important is the recognition that they were in combat, like for the Persian Gulf, the recognition of that, separate from all the other supports we need to put in place?
RAdm (Ret'd) Ken Summers
I think it's important, certainly to the people who served and to the families.
I can recall, and Dusty would agree with this, that we had a situation where a media person was on one of the ships, and not much was going on in the interdiction. We were just doing our thing on the gulf interdiction, and he was bored, so he talked to a young sailor on the wing, and the guy says, “I'm kind of lonely, and I want to go home.” This thing blew up in The Globe and Mail, I think it was, if I recall correctly.
Anyway, it got people really upset. The families back home heard this and said, “Hey, they all want to come home. What's going on here?” It became a big foofaraw in Halifax, and it took quite a bit of work by the admiral down there and the staff to say, “Hey, this is not the case.” We had to send messages back to our families saying that it was one sailor, and he was lonely, and he wanted to get back to talk to his family. They were doing an awful lot for us.
I think, you know, it comes on the families. I know my own family was well aware of where I was and what I was doing, and they had their fears. My daughter and my young son very much wanted dad to be home. It's a hard thing. You're there. The anxiety is there. I think in many ways—and maybe Dusty would agree with this—because we were there and we knew what was going on, we could understand what was happening, but they didn't know that back in Halifax. They didn't know that back in Valcartier or places like that. We may have been more comfortable, but the families were not so much. They weren't at ease. Let's put it that way. The families are very much a part of it.
One of the good things we did was have good communication. If mom was having trouble with Johnny, mom could get on the phone and talk to her husband. The husband could then get on the phone to Johnny and say, “Come on, get your act together. Do what your mother says.” We were able to establish that type of communication during the Gulf War, which we had never done in operations before, so there are things we have done. That was Inmarsat. We were able to do that type of thing. It certainly gave a lot of comfort to the families when things went awry.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
Thank you, Mr. Summers.
Let's start the second round of questions.
I'm going to start with Mrs. Wagantall for five minutes, please.
Conservative
Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you both for your service and for sharing with us today. It's very vital to understanding a lot of the dynamics that we wouldn't understand as civilians who are not family members.
I just want to take note of some things that you said, Mr. Summers. You talked about needing “to make the peace in order to keep the peace”, and then you talked about going in to expel Iraqis and facing hostility daily. Was this originally considered a peacekeeping tour, or did they just not name it until—