Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 21st, 2024

[RAdm (Ret'd) Ken Summers]

In my opinion, it played an important role.

It was a key role that we took, and one that the allies very much wanted us to take. At the time, we looked to take on challenging roles, ones that we were fully capable of doing, and ones that, in fact, gave the highest visibility to Canada. That's why we ended up in the central gulf.

The aircraft were taking on these CAP missions, and close air sweep escort missions. It was what was needed most by the allied effort, and that's what we tried to meet if we were capable of doing it, and if it was safe to do so.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you.

Mr. Angus, you have the floor for two and a half minutes to close.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

Commemorations are super important. They're at the centre of every one of our little towns across Canada. My town of Cobalt has 100 names that we lost in a town that doesn't have streetlights, and we remember that. When you go to Ortona, and go to the centre of the community and see the beautiful statue, the angel of Ortona, it reminds people of the sacrifice.

I would like to ask both gentlemen, if we had 4,000 Canadians serving in the Persian Gulf, what would be a fitting commemoration that you think we should have for the veterans?

[RAdm (Ret'd) Ken Summers]

I would think the most important thing, quite honestly, is not something that's in stone, a monument or something like that. It would be more just the recognition that they had served, and served in a wartime environment. They would like that: recognition that this is what had taken place. Other things would follow, like the monuments. There's a peacekeeping monument here on Sussex, and throughout the country there are others. Maybe the Persian Gulf War should be on there as well.

Things have changed, as I mentioned. What was World War I, World War II and the Korean War, it is not the same anymore. We don't have those anymore. What we have are drones flying in, this type of thing. It has changed.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Admiral Miller, what would you say?

[VAdm (Ret'd) Duncan Miller]

I agree with Admiral Summers. I don't think we need any monument, but the recognition is very much important.

I can't understand why they can't be called war veterans. I mean, you've got to be kidding me. No, we don't need a statue or anything. That we all came back alive is probably testament enough to the fact that we were clever. I can tell you, we had help from our allies when we went over there. The French provided a simulation of the Exocet missile, which the Iraqis could fire at us. They sent aircraft every day towards us. If we saw a missile launch, we would fire back. They provided that so we would know the best aspect to put the ships in when we thought an attack was coming, and we sailed that way. That's one of the reasons we all came back, I can tell you, because there were missiles flying around. We were lucky.

As for what kind of recognition, I think anniversaries are important. I went to the 25th anniversary of the Swissair disaster. I was the commander of the search and rescue and recovery of Swissair. To remember with the proper commemorative ceremony is extremely important. We did have one for the 30th anniversary of the Persian Gulf War. It was held in Halifax. In fact, the HMCS Athabaskan sailed by the jetty. I would say there were thousands of Haligonians on the jetty. When we left for the unknown, tens of thousands were lining the jetties to wave goodbye to us, because they didn't know if we were coming back.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much.

That's the end of the first panel.

We heard from Mr. Duncan Miller, Vice‑Admiral (Retired), by video conference, and Mr. Ken Summers, Rear‑Admiral (Retired) and former Commander of the Canadian Forces in the Middle East, both appearing as individuals.

Thank you for your testimony.

The meeting is suspended.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

We will now resume our meeting.

For the second panel, we have here with us in the room, as an individual, retired master corporal John Senior.

You're going to have five minutes for your opening statement, and after that members of the committee will ask you some questions.

The floor is yours, Mr. Senior.

[John Senior, Master Corporal (Retired), As an Individual]

Thank you, Chair.

I remember the last time I was here I had five minutes, and I was told not to talk too fast. Last time I definitely talked way too fast.

In regard to this meeting today, quite briefly, I signed up in 1990. I did my training in Germany in the armoured corps and was part of the Cold War. I understood what the Cold War was. What I didn't realize at the time—after hearing today's testimonials and discussions—was that if I got hurt at that time, I wouldn't have gotten the same benefits as a World War II veteran or a Korean veteran or a First World War veteran. I didn't know that. I guess what happened is that I joined the military under false pretences. I was ready to give all, because I signed on the dotted line.

What I didn't realize was within the fine print was that the Canadian Armed Forces/Government of Canada was not prepared to cover me the same as a World War II veteran. I think it's a tragedy. Being called to do this, this meeting here for the Gulf War veterans.... We knew that they got shortchanged, because I was in Germany at the time serving under the Cold War, ready to die if I had to. You were told quite clearly at that point in time that you as a tank gunner had to take out 36 Russian tanks before you died. We had to be at a 75% minimum manning at all times. We knew that if anything happened that red horde would come over the hill towards the Rhine River, and we were to slow them down.

Again, we signed on the dotted line. We knew what we were up against. We did not realize this, but in retrospect, now I'm sitting here listening and thinking that a World War II vet did the same sort of thing but gets a whole lot more coverage and respect, because they're a war vet.

I went to Afghanistan, and I knew what was going on there. I knew it was a war. I look at this combat star, and it tells me that I was in a war, but why am I finding out now—I got home in 2010, and it's now 2024—that I'm not really, truly considered a war vet by the Canadian government for coverage?

How can you, as members of Parliament, Government of Canada representatives, try to recruit from your particular population and say, “Hey, there's this little line at the bottom of the contract that says 'unlimited liability'. What that means is that if we need you to go to war for us or fight for us or represent us, you are willing to give up your life for your country. The fine print below that says that if you manage to survive and come back to Canada, you're only going to get 20% or 34% or 45% of what a real war vet back in World War II did”?

If you wind the clock back, I was in Afghanistan with the air force on the X-ray ramp with the helicopters. We went over there with our six Chinooks, which we purchased from the Americans, and we rotated our troops out. Do you think those troops came back any dirtier or any cleaner because they weren't recognized as war vets? I guarantee you that you could take any one of those pictures of real life that I was looking at and make it a black and white photo, and the harshness on their faces would look just the same as those from World War II or Korea, or World War I. Those particular Gulf War vets, whom everyone else is recognizing except the benefits and services, have a really hard time, because they are forgotten vets. The Government of Canada, in certain places, can easily say that as long as there's no tie to benefits, you're a Gulf War veteran.

What does being a war veteran really mean to me, or to them? Being a war veteran is a completion of mission. I'm not a modern vet. I know that. It says I'm not a modern vet. I fought in a freaking war. I was willing at that time, if anything happened, to prepare my family for the fact that I might be one of those 158 people who came back in a box with a flag.

Now, all of a sudden, I'm sitting here an hour later, finding out an hour ago that I don't have the same coverage. Forgive me for being a bit warm under the collar. I'm perspiring. I'm a little angry. I feel betrayed. It's up to you to fix it.

That's my speech.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Mr. Senior.

Thank you for your service and also your courage.

Now we're going to start the first round of questions.

I'm pleased to invite Mr. Richards for six minutes, please.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Thank you.

You just made the statement, “It's up to you to fix it.” It's up to the Minister of National Defence. That's who it's up to.

The last time you were before this committee, you raised some concerns about the lack of respect that Canadian veterans have had, just in basic things like recognizing and commemorating service. Given the fact that they can't even get those kinds of things right, what sort of confidence do you have in the Minister of National Defence and in this current government to actually address this issue for veterans like yourself who served in Afghanistan, veterans who served in the Persian Gulf and others?

What sort of confidence do you have that they'll actually get this and fix this?

[John Senior]

To be quite honest, right now, I think the lack in the government at this point in time for veterans is at an all-time low. That's the end of the story on that. It is at an all-time low. When this particular thing here goes mainstream, I think there are going to be a lot more upset veterans who will want to get things fixed. Currently, there's a deficit of street credibility of the government toward veterans.

We've been taking a hit for quite a few years, to be quite honest—ever since the new veterans charter kicked in. We call it a pizza pension for a reason. They'll take a lump sum, divide it up and give it to us. You'll get $36 a month. Then, this improvement came along afterward because...ever since that famous saying that you're asking more than we can give. I'm sorry, but it's actually the other way around. The Government of Canada is asking more than the veterans are now willing to give. Therefore, you guys are at a deficit as a government. It's no wonder there's a recruiting problem. It's no wonder there's a retention problem. It's because of that lack of trust from the person going into the Canadian Armed Forces and learning about these deficits.

Does that answer your question, sir?

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

I think it does.

I know that you engage with your fellow veterans on social media. You're quite active there. You have a pretty big following on social media. Can you tell us how many veterans your online community reaches?

[John Senior]

I do have the ability to reach 18,000 veterans.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

That's a pretty significant number of our veterans in this country.

What would you say the general consensus is among those veterans in terms of their confidence in this government to be able to properly care for our veterans and to be able to maintain a capable military?

[John Senior]

Again, there's a drastic lack of confidence. That's why, on social media, there are so many start-up, local groups that take care of our own. It's because the government can't do it. Veterans Affairs can't do it, through bureaucracy, stonewalling and a denial-until-death kind of policy. That's what we call it. The pizza pension earned that name because you cannot buy a pizza once a month with less than $36, which is what you get for missing a leg.

We have to take care of ourselves because it's not happening, at the end of the day.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Yes. You used the word “can't”. I would use the word “won't”. I think they won't do it right or get it right. That's more accurate. They could, but they won't.

I'd like to ask you about another matter. We had the commander of military personnel here last year at this committee. We asked about how many people leave the Canadian Forces each year and where that was tracked. They told us that they didn't actually have those numbers and they didn't track them. Do you believe that?

[John Senior]

They have the numbers. They don't want to disclose them because it shows a deficit.

Just in the last six months, I put two more people back into the Canadian Armed Forces through recruiting. A lot of us, as veterans, are discounted for the lack of.... People figure that we get out and that's it. The reality is that we're still loyal to the Canadian Armed Forces. We're still loyal to the military and reputation. We do put back in a lot more than we get back out.

If the numbers actually did come out on how many are leaving, thinking of leaving or just barely hanging on but not serviceable, it would be a scary number for the average person to have to listen to.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

I think you're right on that one. I hear it every day from veterans like you, who say, “I wouldn't recommend it to others and I wouldn't recommend it to my own children.” I've heard that many times.

We also had the Minister of Veterans Affairs here. She told us that they actually don't know how many homeless veterans there are out there. I guess I really struggle.... How the heck can you not know how many people are leaving? How can you not know how many homeless veterans you have out there?

I would ask you about this. How do you think your fellow veterans and you would feel about the possibility of getting your well-documented service recognized as wartime service when we have a government that can't even be bothered to help veterans who are relying on food banks or homeless shelters just to get by? What are your thoughts on that?

[John Senior]

It's an embarrassment. It's not going to come forward any time soon, because being able to track what is a true homeless veteran.... Picturing a veteran on the street.... It doesn't really happen. We are too well connected and, as homeless, we couch surf. There are homeless out there who don't have a house over their heads but are not going hungry because of the food banks, because people are sliding money under their doors and because people are keeping their cars running. The community is taking care of itself because of the failure.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

I'm glad there are those people out there to do that, but it shouldn't have to be the case.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much.

I'd like to invite Mr. Miao to take his six minutes, please.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for joining us again, Mr. Senior. It's great to have you back.

What, in your opinion, is the difference between the terminology “war service” and “special duty service”? You mentioned in your remarks how you're surprised after hearing all of this testimony and knowing the difference in the benefits that you would be getting.

[John Senior]

Okay. I can answer that with a question, sir. Are you a member of Parliament or an advocate? A member of Parliament gets benefits. An advocate doesn't: You get paid by the hour.

Being a war veteran.... It was earned. You were there. You made that sacrifice. You had to prepare your family. You have to prepare, and when you're finished and you come back, it closes that mission. People in the military are programmed to complete missions. We do things. You give us a task and we complete it. If I'm tasked to do a peacekeeping mission and I come back, I'm a peacekeeper. I got that, and I got the medal, but completing a mission and saying, “Well, it was a conflict. Are we going to work on technicalities here? It's not really a war”.... To me, as a frontline soldier—I'm not talking about commanders or admirals, but as a frontline soldier—I'm a war vet. Again, everyone else can recognize that. Why can't my own government recognize that? It's institutional betrayal.

Calling it something just to wordsmith it so that it sounds better for political reasons really shortchanges a soldier, and it runs against your credibility as a government. I say “your” because I'm a master corporal and I do not have the ability to make that change, and there are thousands of retired people who cannot make that change. We take our orders from the Government of Canada. That's for you to figure out how to get it fixed, not me.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you for sharing that.

Let's talk about the value and importance of local commemorations and the role these initiatives can play, in part, in helping to better integrate and support our veterans during the transition to civilian life.

You have a strong portfolio on this. Would you say that the Department of Veterans Affairs should invest less in commemoration or about the same as it does now, or should it increase funding towards commemoration?