Evidence of meeting #109 for Veterans Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was going.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Marie-Hélène Sauvé
Rear-Admiral  Retired) Ken Summers (Commander, Canadian Forces Middle East, As an Individual
Vice-Admiral  Retired) Duncan Miller (Commander, Canadian Naval Forces, Allied Combat Logistics Commander, As an Individual
John Senior  Master Corporal (Retired), As an Individual
Jean-Rodrigue Paré  Committee Researcher

RAdm (Ret'd) Ken Summers

When we left, we weren't really sure what we were getting ourselves into, quite honestly. The government had been talking with the UN. The Prime Minister had been talking with the President of the United States and other leaders, so we left. There was a UN resolution. The resolution was that Saddam Hussein had to take the Iraqis out of Kuwait. Then we did the embargo and tried to put emphasis behind that to make him economically say, “Okay, I better get out.” He didn't, so that's what happened there.

It was a resolution that did not involve hostilities as we went over there. We were prepared for hostilities, and we trained for hostilities, both the navy and the air force, but when we got there, there weren't any. When the time came, we had to be able to do it, so that's when it went from a UN resolution to a conflict of war.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK

In reality, though, I did hear from other witnesses who were told that they were going over there and they weren't sure, but they might not come back. That's pretty broad. That sounds a lot like the potential to be in a war, and it was called a war. However, what we hear now is that there's this confusion on the ground in Ottawa in regard to what the definitions are. We did have testimony from VAC's assistant deputy minister for commemoration, saying that the Persian Gulf War is not defined as a war, and then she clarified that it was their perspective because Canada itself was not at war. I'm sure that must drive you as crazy as it does some of these other folks who have experienced what you experienced.

What would you have had to experience for it to not be a war? What made it a war? Let's go in that direction. In your hearts and minds, as serving members—

RAdm (Ret'd) Ken Summers

What made it a war? A deadline had passed, and it was very clear. In fact, the Iraqis still maintained control over Kuwait, and most of the Kuwaitis had left, and their money had left too, and this type of thing. That deadline was there. It would have been all too easy if Saddam Hussein had gone back because, clearly, the world community had said, “You can't do this; you shouldn't do this.”

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK

He didn't listen, though.

RAdm (Ret'd) Ken Summers

He didn't, so that goes back to what the Prime Minister said at the time. When you get involved in these resolutions, there is an implicit.... I think it's article 1, if I'm not mistaken, of the UN charter that says member nations have the obligation to enforce the resolutions if they're not met.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK

Okay.

When I hear how we served.... I had the opportunity to be in France to celebrate Canada's Hundred Days. Everywhere Canada has gone, even in Syria when we were playing a part there.... When we took our two air force jets back home, the U.S. said, “Whoa, wait a minute.” We are appreciated for what we do, wherever we are. What you did there was put your lives on the line and work to serve Canadians.

How do we fix this? What I'm hearing from Veterans Affairs and from the folks serving in DND is that with the new veterans charter, the term “war” does not exist. It's not defined. It's now a different term. We have “modern-day vets”. Does that make sense to you? What is a modern-day veteran?

RAdm (Ret'd) Ken Summers

I have no idea what a modern-day vet is, other than someone who has probably gone into peacekeeping or war operations. I don't understand. In Veterans Affairs now, anyone who has served in the military is deemed a veteran.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK

There are different kinds of veterans, apparently, and we need to clarify this. I appreciate what you're saying. It's ridiculous that we have gotten caught by definitions and bureaucracy, rather than thinking the most important—

RAdm (Ret'd) Ken Summers

It's common sense.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK

That's a good term. It's about caring about what our veterans have done.

Do I have a little more time?

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

I'm sorry, no. Thank you, Mrs. Wagantall.

Don't forget we have Mr. Miller on Zoom, too.

For five minutes, I invite Mr. Sarai to ask questions.

Randeep Sarai Liberal Surrey Centre, BC

Thank you to both of you, Mr. Summers and Mr. Miller.

For that very reason, I'm going to ask Mr. Miller and give you a break for a few minutes. I'm sure there will be more questions for you.

Mr. Miller, one of the dangerous situations the Canadian contingent played a key role in occurred when the Athabaskan went to the aid of the USS Princeton, an American ship that had been seriously damaged by Iraqi mines off the coast of Kuwait. Could you provide our committee with more first-hand context of the situation, and the role Canada and Canadians played to support the coalition and our allies at that time?

VAdm (Ret'd) Duncan Miller

Certainly. As I said in my opening comments, the U.S. commander called me up—you'll probably appreciate this—and said the USS Princeton had been damaged off Kuwait in a known minefield. He said he needed an escort for the tug going up there to escort that ship out. He said the ship should have a helicopter, communications with all of us and anti-mine sonar systems. He said, “There's only one ship that meets all of those criteria, and you're sailing on it.” He was asking me whether I could get the authorization to be the ship that goes off Kuwait and rescues the USS Princeton.

That's when I called Admiral Summers and said, “Here's the deal. Athabaskan is perfectly prepared to go north, off Kuwait, to rescue the USS Princeton.” In fact, we did. We had to sail at a certain speed so we wouldn't activate any of the other types of mines in that area. There were floating mines the Iraqis had let go in the Persian Gulf. It was a pretty dangerous mission. Certainly, the crew was.... I talked to the captain and said, “It's up to you, Captain. You know, you're the one who's going to put your ship in danger.” He said, “There's no question. We're well prepared. We can do this.” Therefore, that's what we did.

I'd like to add one thing about the fact that Canada did not declare war on Iraq. That's irrelevant, in my mind. There was a war going on, and Canadians were in it. It may not have been declared by Canada, but we were in it. When you look at the Webster dictionary, it says that if two factions with combat capability go at each other, a war is declared. You can look up all the definitions. There are legal definitions, too. You can put the Gulf War in every definition and it comes out as a war. There's no question. It was a war, and the Canadian public knew it as a war. We went through dangerous things.

I can't tell you how glad we were when we came back—and that all of us came back. One of the things about the most successful naval operation in our history is that we all came back alive, and I'm thankful every day.

Randeep Sarai Liberal Surrey Centre, BC

Thank you, Mr. Miller.

I think Mr. Summers wants to add to that.

RAdm (Ret'd) Ken Summers

It's just a quick interjection.

No one ever declared war. However, no one ever declared a ceasefire, but a ceasefire occurred. Eventually—I think it was 45 days later—peace was declared, if you want to call it that.

That's the type of operation we were involved in. War was never declared. It all happened when he didn't do that. At two o'clock in the morning on the 16th, all hell broke loose, and that's how we got involved in it. Eventually, at some point in time, a ceasefire was declared and they stopped fighting. However, it was never declared. Saddam Hussein never declared a ceasefire. They all stopped.

Randeep Sarai Liberal Surrey Centre, BC

Mr. Miller, I read something about you, about letters from across Canada from schools and concerned citizens, and how the sailors responded to every one of them. Can you share a bit about that?

VAdm (Ret'd) Duncan Miller

Yes, that's a great story. Just about every school across the country wrote letters to the ships. We would have a big bucket outside the sick bay with the letters in it. We encouraged every sailor to pick one and write back, and that's what they did. It was remarkable.

My son was at university, and he said, “Dad, they have a stress room for us, because everybody is watching those missiles going into Baghdad.” The capability to fire one into the third storey and the third window of the Iraqi headquarters was what was happening. People were stressed by that. Right across the country—high schools, elementary schools—they wrote to the sailors, so we had this system aboard every ship to share all those thousands of letters.

We responded to every single one. I must have written about 10-15 myself, going by the sick bay, picking out a letter and writing back, saying, “Yes, war is not fun; it's terrible. You should be thankful that you're lucky in your lovely city where there aren't tanks rolling in to destroy your houses.” That's what happened in Kuwait when the Iraqis invaded, and they started a war. No question, it was a war.

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

Thank you so much.

We have two other interventions of two and a half minutes each.

I will start with Mr. Desilets.

Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd ask the witnesses to please provide short answers, given my limited time.

Mr. Miller, did Canada have the choice to take part in this war or this non-war, or not?

VAdm (Ret'd) Duncan Miller

I don't have translation here, but from what I understand, you are asking whether or not the Canadian government accepts it as a war.

If you're telling me that the Minister of National Defence can declare that it was a war, I'm going to call him up, believe me, and say, “Hey, Minister, declare it as a war.” No question, it should be a war.

Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Mr. Miller, did Canada have the choice to take part in the Gulf War or not, in your opinion?

VAdm (Ret'd) Duncan Miller

It certainly had an obligation to all those who served in the Persian Gulf.

I think of young people today. We're wondering why they're not joining the military. Well, here's a perfect reason. When we went to war and came back, we didn't get all the benefits that should be accrued by going into that war and being shot at. What do you think a young person is going to do today on social media? They're not going to join the military, because when you join it and you get into trouble, your government isn't going to give you all the benefits that it should.

Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Thank you.

Mr. Summers, I'd like to ask you the same question, if you could give a brief answer.

RAdm (Ret'd) Ken Summers

Canada has had a proud history of being involved, and getting involved in things that are right, like Lester Pearson with the United Nations. We all ended up getting involved. We want to do these things, and do what's right for the world. We want to be proud of ourselves, showing that we're a member of a community that has taken on these obligations.

Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Mr. Summers, in your opinion, did Canada play a secondary role in that war or did it play an active role in the conflict?