Veterans Affairs Committee on Dec. 12th, 2024

[MaryAnn Notarianni]

I can follow up with you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mrs. Wagantall. Your time is over.

I will go to MP Sean Casey for the last five minutes.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to bring Mr. Larocque into the conversation.

The opening statement you gave to the committee on November 28 probably provided the most compelling evidence we could imagine on the value of Indspire and what it represents.

I'll basically give you carte blanche to expand on whatever you wish, but I would appreciate if you would include a bit about your personal story, and how this fund has helped you become a law professor and a practising lawyer, as well as a continuing member of the reserves.

[Yvan Guy Larocque, Board of Directors, Clinical Counsel, University of Manitoba Faculty of Law, Indspire]

I'd be happy to. Thank you for the question.

I grew up in a small French Métis community in southern Manitoba. I wasn't very well off, like many Métis families. I knew that I wanted to pursue an education but couldn't afford to go to university, so I was very fortunate to be recruited into the armed forces through a Métis recruiter when I was 16. I joined the naval reserve when I was 16 knowing that I would receive some funding for my education and would have a job. I was very fortunate to join the naval reserve. I did my basic training when I had just turned 17, in Borden, Ontario.

The money I made working in the reserves and the tuition reimbursement the Canadian Armed Forces offered reservists helped me attend my undergraduate program. Also, I credit most of my success to the values the CAF instilled in me through basic training and through my work in various domains in the Canadian Armed Forces.

I wasn't aware of Indspire until a bit later in my education, when I had to withdraw from university because I couldn't afford to live on my own in the city and attend university. I actually went to work full time in the navy for a few years to save some more money to go back to school. At that time, I learned of Indspire and applied and received some bursaries, which helped me go back to school. I was very fortunate in that case to go back to university to finish my undergraduate degree in economics.

All the while, I was working in the reserves, sometimes as a full-time class B or class C member in various parts of Canada and sometimes as a reservist on evenings and weekends at my home unit. After I finished my undergraduate degree, I worked in the Canadian Armed Forces and the Royal Canadian Air Force for about four years full time before deciding to pursue further education and going to law school.

When I went to law school, I was a bit better off because I'd been working full time in the Canadian Armed Forces and was able to save some money, but I also relied on Indspire for additional funding. That helped me not have to work two jobs while I was in law school. I still worked one job in the reserves, but I didn't have to take on additional debt and additional obligations.

Indspire really supported me throughout my career. I was allowed to pursue education that I wouldn't have been able to pursue without both Canadian Armed Forces support and Indspire support. I'm very fortunate, and I credit both the Canadian Armed Forces and Indspire for the support and opportunities they gave me and for my success.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

We have about a minute left.

You're a Métis veteran with 23 years of service who continues to serve in the reserves, and that's exactly what we're studying here. It's about the experiences of indigenous and Black veterans. What advice do you have for the committee as someone who walks the walk?

[Yvan Guy Larocque]

Part of the reason we don't see as many indigenous people staying in the force is that there are not many of us in the forces to begin with. I think there's a lot of pride among indigenous veterans and there's a lot of history, but there's also a lot of bad history. That turns indigenous people off from joining the forces.

Obviously there's divisiveness in our country in relation to indigenous rights and the historic wrongs that have been perpetrated on indigenous peoples. I think reconciliation is the answer.

Being both a member of an indigenous nation and a Canadian is something to be proud of, and that needs to be instilled in young people. It also needs to be instilled in the public and needs to be part of the conversation around reconciliation. You can be both a member of an indigenous nation and Canadian. You can be proud of both and serve both your community and your country.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you for your service.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much.

Wow. That was a great panel for the first hour. It was a good idea for members of the committee to invite those witnesses.

We have heard from MaryAnn Notarianni, deputy chief executive officer, knowledge mobilization, and Meriem Benlamri, director, knowledge mobilization, both from the Atlas Institute for Veterans and Families.

We have also heard from Yvan Guy Larocque, board member, clinical counsel, at the University of Manitoba law faculty, and William Shead, board member, both representing Indspire.

And we heard from Maria Antonia Trujillo, project coordinator, Indigenous Veterans Initiative, representing The Last Post Fund.

We are going to suspend the meeting for a few minutes to bring in the next witnesses for the next hour.

The meeting is suspended.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Ladies and gentlemen, we are resuming the meeting.

As part of our study of the experience of indigenous and Black veterans, we will be spending 30 minutes with Bouchard Dulyx Dorval, who is a veteran. He is testifying as an individual by videoconference.

Welcome, Mr. Dorval.

Ordinarily, witnesses have five minutes for their opening remarks. If you would like to address the members of the committee, I will give you the floor.

[Bouchard Dulyx Dorval, Veteran, As an Individual]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, members of the committee. I have not prepared a speech, but I am happy to be here, because I have already learned several things. I did not even know about all the work being done to support us. I am learning a lot about the work that is being done and about what has already been done and what will be done in the future.

Thank you for inviting me to participate in the meeting. This is an opportunity for me to learn about these facts.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Dorval.

One committee member from each party represented here will have the floor for six minutes and may share their speaking time with one of their colleagues.

I'll give the floor to Mr. Blake Richards for six minutes to start the questioning of Mr. Dorval.

Please go ahead.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

First, Mr. Chair, I understood we had another witness with us. Is that no longer the case? I'm not in the room, so it's hard for me to see.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

We were supposed to have Mr. Brian Prairie by video conference, but he cancelled this morning so he's not available. That's why we are going to stay for 20 minutes with Mr. Dorval and then have committee business right after.

Please go ahead.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate that. It's sometimes hard to tell when you're here virtually.

I appreciate you being here today, sir. Thank you for your willingness to come speak with the committee.

I certainly have some questions for you. You didn't give a lot of comments in your opening remarks, so I will afford you the opportunity to do that.

One thing we've heard during the course of this study is that there exists within Canada's government departments and institutions systemic racism. Is that something you agree with, and why or why not?

[Bouchard Dulyx Dorval]

It's true. It's unbelievable.

Some hard work has been done to solve the problem, but I think there is a lot of work left to do. When I left the Valcartier base five years ago, we were already seeing change happening.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

What I would ask next is in the context of veterans. Can you identify specific issues that exist there, and can you identify any specific laws or policies in place that are enabling systemic racism within our departments or institutions?

[Bouchard Dulyx Dorval]

There are laws, but they are not obeyed. There are laws, tests, training, from time to time. I think the government is doing a bit for that.

The problem is actually the people working there. Sometimes, they look at the institutions as if it belonged to them, which means they completely block the road to an individual. It's as if we had no right to go there. At one point, I felt like a space alien in that army. But there are also good people.

It was a constant struggle. Even yesterday, I was wondering how I was able to bear it all and survive. It was unbelievable. I was an alien for quite a long time. When I was finally transferred to Montreal for the last six years of my service, that was when I felt the weight lift a bit.

I don't use the door like everybody else. That may be my personal journey. Even though I grew up in it, it was frustrating. Things happened to me that I talked about only when I filed a grievance. I could not even tell my family what I had experienced. I shed tears, but I succeeded. Nobody knew what I endured. I had to endure a lot.

Before I joined the army, I really wanted to be part of it. I had the adrenaline, the energy, of a newbie. I had to prove myself. In spite of everything, I grew up a lot, and I succeeded.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

We're certainly glad to hear that.

Can you tell me how long you served in the forces? You mentioned that you felt there was a bit of a change.

[Bouchard Dulyx Dorval]

I served in the army for 19 years, and I left when I turned 60.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

You mentioned there was a bit of a change for you when you went to Montreal.

[Bouchard Dulyx Dorval]

Yes, that's right.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

What changed there? Was it just people and personalities, or were there specific policies or laws that you saw change that helped to improve things?

[Bouchard Dulyx Dorval]

It may be because of being in an urban setting and because of my environment. There were more of us. In Montreal, there are definitely a lot more reservists than other things. It is also a more civilian environment. A civilian is still a civilian. People like the idea of working with a civilian, but they are still a civilian. It wasn't the same thing.

In Quebec City, I had to fight and walk around with my fists clenched all the time as if I were always at war with somebody. In Montreal, I didn't have that pressure. That is where I started to breathe a bit. The environment helped me.

In Quebec City, I filed one grievance after another and I always won. An African told me I had to stay to help other Blacks who were travelling the same road as me. He told me I had to stay because I had made it through, I had fought the battle. But I had to leave, because I had done my time.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

What year did you retire from the forces?

[Bouchard Dulyx Dorval]

It was April 17, 2019.