Veterans Affairs Committee on May 20th, 2022

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

The other programs that you identified were the veterans emergency fund and the veterans independence program. Was there another one?

[Crystal Garrett-Baird]

I also referenced the disability pension, which is the monthly amount.

If we look right now, from the veterans emergency fund in last fiscal year, just over $1 million was provided in support to 574 veterans and survivors. We also have the veterans independence program, which provides a number of supports and services to veterans. For example, right now it is supporting 28,000 survivors alone. The income replacement benefit is being provided to approximately 400 survivors. We have disability benefits being provided to over 36,000 survivors as well.

That gives you some scope on the number of survivors we are supporting through a variety of mechanisms, both shorter term, such as the veterans emergency fund, and longer term, through disability benefits and the income replacement benefit.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

You indicated that, when you embarked on this, the only information that Veterans Affairs had was the number of people who opted in to the optional survivor benefit. How many was that?

[Crystal Garrett-Baird]

I do not have that number right in front of me, but I can get it for you.

That was the challenge. When budget 2019 was announced, the only administrative data that we could access with any level of certainty was the number of individuals in receipt of the optional survivor benefit. We really wanted to get at who was not receiving that benefit, hence why we worked with Statistics Canada, the Canadian Armed Forces and the Canadian Institute for Military and Veteran Health Research to obtain both qualitative and quantitative data and work through the recruitment of individuals to support the work that Dr. Li did.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Casey.

I'd like to tell the members of the committee that while there was no address from the Treasury Board Secretariat, we have two representatives with us today: Ms. Nadine Labrie, the senior director, and Mr. Simon Crabtree, the executive director, both from pensions and benefits. They will also be available to answer your questions.

I saw a hand raised at one point. Mr. Crabtree, I assume you wanted to answer a question that was asked. Members of the committee can direct questions to you in a future round.

The second vice-chair of the committee, Mr. Luc Desilets, now has the floor for six minutes.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for Ms. Tattersall.

Have there been any serious actuarial studies to determine the total cost of repealing the post‑60 marriage provision?

[BGen Virginia Tattersall]

A letter was sent to the parliamentary budget office in, I believe, 2012, for which there was an initial actuarial assessment done for three of the plans to see what this would potentially cost. That was well over a decade ago, and in the scope of actuarial assessments, those numbers would no longer be considered valid because the data has changed.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I find it hard to understand that this has not been reviewed for 10 years. And yet this is an important issue for thousands of women.

How do you explain that your department doesn't try to find out how much money this involves? A $100,000 figure is one thing, but $20 billion is something else entirely.

My question is again for you, Ms. Tattersall.

[BGen Virginia Tattersall]

Very well, thank you.

I would reply that we have had several difficulties in terms of the [Technical difficulty—Editor] of a pension.

The fact is that we have not examined this particular issue, but it is one we are aware of. We regularly receive questions about this issue, which we provide responses to, but it is not, at this time, one that I have had the means to engage a specific study on.

Again, it is an issue that is not just specific to the Canadian Forces Superannuation Act. It also impacts the public service, the RCMP and I believe a couple of the other acts, which I think my colleague from the Treasury Board would be well placed to explain.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Mr. Desilets, Mr. Crabtree has raised his hand. He may want to answer your question.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

All right.

I'm listening, Mr. Crabtree.

[Simon Crabtree, Executive Director, Pensions and Benefits, Treasury Board Secretariat]

Thank you very much.

The numbers that were calculated more than a decade ago estimated a total nearing $1 billion as the cost to implement that. To give you a sense of order of magnitude, based on assumption changes that we've seen elsewhere, you could conservatively double that number as far as the cost goes. We would, of course, have to run exact scenarios based on the latest actuarial data, but a $2-billion figure would probably bring you into the right ballpark.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you for this response.

Ms. Tattersall, my question is for you, again.

Is Minister Anita Anand aware of the issue of the post‑60 marriage provision?

[BGen Virginia Tattersall]

No, we have not had a chance at this point to fully brief the minister on issues such as this, and it's one of a number that clearly she would need to be briefed on. She has been very busy with other issues.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I understand.

The Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs is currently analyzing this file. It is my understanding that this file falls entirely under the purview of National Defence.

In your opinion, am I wrong?

[BGen Virginia Tattersall]

This is not just a Canadian Forces issue.

As I have said, the marriage after 60 clause is also in the public service—it's worded in a different way—as well as in the RCMP. This issue is about more than just the Canadian Forces Superannuation Act.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I'm addressing you again, Ms. Tattersall, but I'll leave you alone after this.

Is there any discussion with the Department of Veterans Affairs about this provision?

[BGen Virginia Tattersall]

Since I have held the responsibilities as DGCB,

we have not had any specific discussions about this, other than those we have had in preparation for our appearance today.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you.

I have nothing to add at this time, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Desilets.

I now invite Ms. Rachel Blaney to take the floor for six minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I thank all the folks who are here testifying today. It's very helpful and interesting.

My first questions are going to be for Dr. Li.

First of all, thank you very much for your presentation, and I thank you for including the quotes from some of the folks you worked with. I found those to be very impactful.

You talked in your written remarks about the difficulty in finding veterans and survivors to participate in this study. Obviously, COVID was a considerable challenge. I would also argue that another challenge is the fact that the people you were asking to do this work are very dedicated to this country and very service-oriented. They don't like to say anything bad about the country they were willing to put their lives on the line for.

I guess my question to you is how you found the 10 participants. Was there any modification in how you attracted those participants based on their service history and the fact that this is a group of people who largely served their country and don't complain? What were the criteria? Where in Canada were those folks living? I just want to get a sense of whether they were across the country or located largely in one or two centres.

[Dr. Eric Ping Hung Li]

They are across the country. We got individuals from Atlantic Canada, Ontario and B.C., and couples from Alberta. We have a pretty good selection with those 10 people.

Our recruitment strategies were through multiple networks. We ran some Facebook ads and also tried to join some community groups from that. It turned out that the next generation referred their parents or their moms to join our studies, and we went through the different personal networks we already had in the veterans community. At UBC, we have the STAR office, which has a really good relationship with DND and also Veterans Affairs. They helped us to find some leads here and there for that.

You're right about COVID. Our first few studies were really impacted by COVID. Also, thinking about the demographics, it was really hard to use electronic media to reach out to them for that, so there was a lot of relying on personal connections and multiple layers. That's really the challenge we had.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I just want to clarify: Were they all veterans, or were there any RCMP veterans or federal public servants?

[Dr. Eric Ping Hung Li]

These were all military veterans.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Okay. That's perfect.

How many of the 10 participants had married after 60, or were there any who had married before 60? Can you tell us, generally, with those 10 participants, what their general income status was? Were they all retirees living on a fixed income?