Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 20th, 2022

[Paul Ledwell]

Well, our case managers and our veterans service agents are in situations of being in direct and regular interaction with the veterans they serve. These are conversations, as I think Mr. Harris indicated, that transpire regularly. There are a lot of phone calls by the veteran to their case manager or their veterans service agent and by the veterans service agent or the case manager to the veteran to make sure they're doing okay, to make sure they have the supports they require, to ensure they are getting access to not just health supports but also social supports and supports with respect to employment, connection to community and everything else. That's a regular undertaking.

There's a relationship that's built up between these individuals, and an important level of trust, of course, needs to be established through that relationship. The communication is active. We seek to be responsive and to provide the right advice and direction to the veteran so they can live a healthy life. That's really at the heart of these relationships and our service to them.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Well, it's comforting to know at least that once they've reached that level of thinking, there are people who react and follow up and try to support them even further.

[Paul Ledwell]

That's right, and in many cases if something troubling transpires between a veteran and their case manager or the veterans service agent, which might require the case manager or the veterans service agent to come back and reflect on it, they can then either reach out personally or raise it, as the minister and as we have indicated, with a supervisor. That supervisor can reach out to that individual.

In this case, when this issue came to light, it was the veteran team service manager who reached out the next day to that veteran to apologize for what had transpired, to check in on the veteran to see how that veteran was doing and to see what we could do to rectify the situation that had occurred the previous day. It was that fast. It's really important, I think, to underline that, because of the seriousness of this issue that has been identified and because of the importance of the relationship and the trust we have with the veterans we serve.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have no further questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much. There are 15 seconds left, so I don't think we have time.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Mr. Chair, I—

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

You'll take it, Mr. Samson? Okay, go ahead. You have 10 seconds.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

I just want to say that mental health is a very important issue and we need to do more, and I was very happy to see the $140-million investment for veterans so that they can have the services they need right away while they're waiting for their applications to be processed. That was a very important approach in this program, and I'm really pleased with that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much, Mr. Samson, for your comment.

I would like to invite Luc Desilets to take the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

You said that this employee's file would be thoroughly reviewed. I don't feel like much data will be found during the exercise. An employee who does something more or less relevant usually doesn't note it in their file. I'm just saying that.

Here is the other thing that bothers me. You said that, after the first exchange between the agent and the veteran, a manager intervened. A second manager and then a third one also intervened afterwards. Is that the case?

[Paul Ledwell]

There was no third intervention. A supervisor spoke with the veteran twice.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Okay.

Were the supervisor's two calls not recorded?

[Paul Ledwell]

Notes were taken, but no call has been recorded.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

What differentiates cases where you record the conversation from those where you don't?

Why do you do it in some cases, and not in others?

[Paul Ledwell]

If I may, that question should be put to Mr. Harris. Having said that, I would just like to point out that there are all kinds of exchanges that take place between veterans and their agents. Many of the topics discussed with veterans are confidential. So these are not discussions that lend themselves to being recorded.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

At the beginning of phone calls with insurance companies, for example, we are regularly told that the call will be recorded. If you are faced with potential cases like this, shouldn't you think about that?

I know we don't know all the details of the case, but I wonder if, in the case of conversations with a client who is going through an excruciating situation where medical assistance in dying is being discussed, conversations with higher-level managers should not be recorded.

[Paul Ledwell]

There is a difference between calls where the veteran reaches out to the department and calls, like this one, where they are calling an employee with whom they have a relationship similar to that with a doctor. The employee works very closely with the individual. These types of calls are not recorded.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Ledwell.

Now, for two minutes and a half, Ms. Blaney, the floor is yours.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to make sure that it's clear for the record that for a person in this country to receive MAID, they have to meet certain criteria. I don't want there to be any impression leaving this place or this room that people can call in and have a conversation with anybody and then, as as result, have MAID quickly as part of the solution. There are very clear criteria. I just want to make sure that's on the record and that there's not a misunderstanding or misinformation.

Coming back to this very important discussion around assuring the best care for our veterans, which I believe everybody in this room is committed to, I hear now from Mr. Ledwell that not all calls are recorded. I'm wondering if there are any discussions happening within the department around this.

After having an incident like this, is it something that should be considered? Should all calls be recorded—obviously, with very high confidentiality as part of that—to ensure that if there's an incident that is concerning in any way, shape or form, there's a clear way of checking the pathway and making sure the practice is at a level that we are all comfortable with as Canadians when we serve the people who served us?

[Paul Ledwell]

Perhaps I'll begin and then ask Steven if he could respond as well.

We're not giving this active consideration at the present time. That's not to say we will not give it active consideration in the future. As I mentioned in the earlier response, some of these are highly sensitive conversations, and we want to be able to protect the confidentiality that exists between the veteran and the case manager, especially—and these are veterans with very complex needs and issues—to ensure there is a degree of safety in that relationship and that it does not get reported out by any means, either intentionally or unintentionally.

We're not giving that active consideration for that primary reason, I think, but we are also aware that issues may be raised that do require more senior and perhaps even more sensitive attention, so we do have systems in place to ensure, as we've indicated before, that those get escalated and that those get addressed that way. As a consequence of that, of course, there are notes in files related to veterans, but not recordings of those relationships or those conversations.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you.

Now, for five minutes, I'd like to invite MP Michael Cooper.

Please go ahead.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Ledwell, I'll direct my questions to you.

You have said more than once, and the minister said in his testimony more than once, that this was an isolated case. At first it was one case. Now it is two cases.

You have said that the investigation is ongoing. You further said, in answer to questions posed by Mr. Richards, that the files this employee was involved in are currently being reviewed, so given what is not known and given that there is an ongoing investigation and that case files are being reviewed, how can you say with any confidence that this was an isolated incident involving this employee?

[Paul Ledwell]

We've done a complete review of all of the files, and I should identify and underline, as I think we said earlier, that this was a case—it was inappropriate and unacceptable, as the minister said—in which a veterans service agent, an employee, was raising the issue unprompted. It was an isolated case, from what we have been able to determine, a single case in which an employee raised the issue unprompted, of their own accord, with a veteran.

We are also reviewing the files to ascertain in how many situations a veteran might have raised this issue. As we indicated earlier, a veteran could come forward to ask questions regarding his or her benefits. If a veteran were considering this undertaking, what kind of impact might that have on the benefits that the veteran and his or her family receives?

In that case, we do have guidance and a policy whereby our case managers, our veterans service agents and others who are interacting with veterans can provide indications and technical information on that element—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Okay. I understand that, but first of all, just to clarify, all of the files involving this employee have been reviewed. That is what you are saying.

[Paul Ledwell]

That's correct.