Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 20th, 2022

[Paul Ledwell]

We should be clear that this reference, this policy and these guidelines have been in place. There has been training in reference to this for some time, but this incident has augmented the focus of this aspect in the training.

It is mandatory. It will be mandatory for all new and existing employees to undertake this training and to be refreshed on the training on a regular basis.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you. That's very helpful.

I'll be going to Mr. Harris on this question.

It's very good to see you. I haven't seen you in a while, Mr. Harris. As you know, I always enjoy my time with you.

I know that there are privacy rules, so I'm trying to be respectful of them. When you were talking, it sounded to me as though it was the worker who called the veteran. Could you give us anything more concrete about how this interaction happened and if it was engaged in from the veteran or from the worker?

[Steven Harris]

Thanks very much for the question. It's nice to see you as well.

Without going into too many details and incorporating a private conversation between the VAC employee and the veteran, there was a discussion around the current status of how folks were doing. As the minister and the deputy have indicated, a consideration for medical assistance in dying was brought up inappropriately when somebody was expressing some difficulty that they were having. I would acknowledge that the employee brought it up inappropriately and then the discussion sort of went from there into a much more difficult circumstance, as I understand it.

I don't have a recording of the phone call. We won't have a recording of the phone call that took place. It was, as I understand it, the veteran who called in to the veterans service agent. They had a discussion around status, benefits and things of that nature. That was one of the elements of the conversation that came up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much, Mr. Harris.

Now I'd like to invite our new colleague on the committee, Mr. Terry Dowdall, to have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank everyone. I'm excited to be here and be part of this committee.

I come from Simcoe—Grey. I have CFB Borden in my riding. When individuals happen to leave the forces, a lot who are there stay in the area for a couple of reasons: The taxes are low and they have a great member of Parliament.

To begin with, thank you for being here, Minister.

I heard you say a little earlier that you went to the deputy minister. Who found out about this first? I would think that probably the deputy minister would find out and let the minister know.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you very much.

I was informed by my office staff. Of course, I'll leave it to the deputy, but he found out and he informed my staff. I instructed that we would have the investigation right away because there's no trouble to say, as you fully know, that this was terrible.

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

My concern is that if somebody didn't do it through the media, how would we have known? You should know that information immediately, I would think; you shouldn't find out through some other source and then go to the minister.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

I appreciate your question, but I don't have any access to first-line worker calls in the department. I do not have access to that at all, or anything that happens there.

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Through the media, the veteran in question said that your department.... I'm going to quote this. The media report said that “the service agent told him in the call about having helped another veteran access resources for medical assistance in dying through Veterans Affairs Canada, including support for that person's children who were struggling with the impending death.”

Have you or your officials been able to confirm if this is the case?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

No. I cannot confirm that at all, but I'll leave it with my deputy.

[Paul Ledwell]

Thanks very much for the question.

We can confirm that this is the case. There was another veteran who raised the issue with that particular veteran's service agent.

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Are there other individuals that you know of—or the minister directly—outside of this who perhaps have used MAID or been recommended to use MAID?

[Paul Ledwell]

In no other case that we've been able to ascertain has an employee of Veterans Affairs Canada encouraged and engaged in the conversation about MAID without the issue being raised first by the veteran.

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

To follow up, I would say from my municipal background that if there was a health and safety issue through the ministry, it was not only that individual who would be looked at. I think there's a bigger problem. I was worried when you said this was an employee who was well established. To me, that brings more sirens to the fact that perhaps there are other issues that need to be looked at.

I want to state this for a fact. I came from the Department of National Defence before this. We have a hard time getting new people because there are so many issues and red flags popping up. I can tell you that these veterans who are leaving, with their wait times and with these kinds of issues, aren't the ones who would suggest to people, “This is a great career to go into, to be there for us as Canadians.”

What's your comment on that?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Do you mean on the wait times?

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

It's just in general. We need more people to enter.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Absolutely. We would not—

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Who would go there with the issues we're seeing here? Who is going to speak positively about it?

I just got on this committee two days ago and I'm getting calls from veterans who are struggling. I just got my name on the sheet. I'm saying there are some major issues with the department, and if any more people died on this through MAID, there has to be a big investigation into it.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

I want to be sure that I'm following you. Are you talking about MAID or people who are in trouble generally, who are in difficulty and in need of help?

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

I mean people in the military who got recommendations to go and use MAID.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

I can't respond to that. I would have to let the deputy do it. I would not have that information.

[Paul Ledwell]

As I've indicated and will say again, our investigation and a thorough review of this situation suggest that this was a single, isolated situation in which the issue was raised, unprompted, by the employee with the veteran. Any other case has been a case of a veteran getting clarification on the impacts on their benefits if they were to pursue this. The relationship and the understanding around that issue is between them and their health professional.

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

One other sad thing, when I was at National Defence—I think it's great that you have this joint suicide prevention strategy between the two ministries; I think that's fantastic—there were still 12 deaths, which is sad. The number's not going down.

Do you keep stats for Veterans Affairs? Are there follow-ups for those individuals? Do you keep those statistics? You did a study. Is there any follow-up?

[Paul Ledwell]

As much as we can, yes, we follow those stats. We also, if there is an incident—

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Do you know how many people? Is that number going down in your ministry, or is the number going up?