Veterans Affairs Committee on Feb. 13th, 2023

[André Thivierge]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, there's a misconception on the mental health problems. The stigma that we're talking about is that most veterans—most of the military members getting out of the forces—have some mental problems. That is not exactly the truth. The vast majority of members, when they get out, even those who served on many missions, don't have mental health problems. Some of them do.

Before going to a strategy, it is important to understand and have that open discussion with the different employers about the perception they have of mental health problems. Some vets don't need accommodation. As we are enlarging our programs, many of them are fully employable.

In terms of strategy, I think this has to be an ongoing dialogue between the veteran support ecosystem and the community of employers.

[Rechie Valdez, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you.

The next question I have is, when you work with veterans, what are their top concerns with finding employment?

[André Thivierge]

Well, I don't work directly with veterans, so I can relate only to my experience. Some of them simply want to change careers, to do something different from what they were doing. I relate to a friend of mine who got out and became a sommelier.

Particularly in the national capital area, it is a very interesting population. The population in the national capital is officers and senior officers and senior NCOs. Many of them develop skills in the area of project management, so we will see them becoming entrepreneurs, developing their business in project management. Some others will contract with firms to become project managers.

Again, some of them want to do something totally different as a second career, and some others want to pursue the new skills they have developed. Many service members go through academic upgrading. When they have completed their diploma, they want to serve; they want to use their skills in different industries.

[Rechie Valdez, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll go over to you, Mr. Thorne.

You mentioned the cultural transition and you touched on the skill gaps and social supports. Can you provide additional context that you didn't get a chance to mention in your opening because you had a limited amount of time?

[Oliver Thorne]

Yes. In particular, to perhaps highlight some examples of where I think this type of service is being provided, out here in British Columbia, where our organization is headquartered, there are two organizations that immediately spring to mind.

The first is the Institute for Veterans Education and Transition, also called IVET, and it is based at the University of British Columbia. It is a specialized program, the aim of which is to make UBC a veteran-friendly campus. The idea is that for those leaving the military and accessing the education and training benefits, they can go through this program, receive academic credit for some of their experience and service in the military, and essentially move along a fast track towards a certificate.

The idea here is that it's an opportunity for people to engage with post-secondary education but have a wraparound peer support experience. They are embedded with a group of their peers and they can support one another in that context, which may be culturally quite different from their experience in the military. The idea here is to increase the rate of success and the rate of retention.

There's a similar program at the B.C. Institute of Technology, called the Legion military skills conversion program. There are other programs like this across Canada.

I very much think that is what is needed. We see from many folks, and particularly if you look down in the United States.... Oh, I think I'm out of time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Go ahead, Mr. Thorne.

[Oliver Thorne]

Down in the States, you can see similar problems happening with the GI bill. People are leaving or not completing post-secondary education, not because they have issues with finance, but because they have issues with cultural fit and retention.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Thorne.

Mr. Desilets, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to say hello to my colleagues and thank the witnesses for being here.

Mr. Thivierge, you mentioned earlier that for veterans, the salary, rewards and benefits aren't that important. You said that veterans are actually motivated by their desire to serve, just like when they were in the armed forces.

What we've heard is that the unemployment rate is 4.5% among veterans, compared to 6.6% in the Quebec and Canadian populations. Also, veterans are apparently more likely to express job dissatisfaction if they're not employed to their full potential.

Can you help me understand that?

On the one hand, unemployment among veterans is low, although I don't have the latest data with me. On the other hand, their interest in a job doesn't match their aspirations.

[André Thivierge]

Mr. Chair, I thank the member for his question.

One thing you need to understand is that when veterans retire, they're in their prime. Their potential and skills are at their peak, so they're looking for a challenge. For them, a challenge doesn't mean pay or benefits. They're looking for the kinds of challenges they tackled when they were in the Canadian Forces.

When someone serves in the Canadian Forces, they have to carry out missions involving significant risks with very few resources. If they're in a leadership role, they're responsible for the lives of the men and women they're serving with. They're asked to take on a mission that calls for creativity. When that person leaves the Canadian Forces, they're still fuelled by that feeling. What veterans want is a challenge to overcome.

For a veteran, success is defined by their ability to take on challenges. That doesn't mean they're willing to accept a lower salary, though.

I hope that answers the question, Mr. Chair.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

That was a great answer, Mr. Thivierge.

I think that's really interesting. It's an angle I hadn't really understood before.

Earlier you referred to the fact that only 4% of the department's employees are veterans. Like us, you seem to think that's a bit odd.

Could you please explain why the percentage of veterans working at the department is so low?

Who knows a veteran better than another veteran?

[André Thivierge]

I don't know if I can explain it. All I can do is suggest theories.

Is the department in need of a culture change? What I mean by that is that maybe veterans' skills aren't being recognized. That's just a theory. I'm not passing judgment.

It could also be that not many veterans are interested in a career with that kind of department.

We're trying to see it from both sides.

I don't have any concrete data on this, but I want to thank you for taking an interest in this important issue.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Why wouldn't veterans be interested in working for this department? It seems like the logical next step to me. The private sector is a world of its own. If they take a job in the private sector, they'll have to search for challenges, but at the Department of Veterans Affairs, there are already plenty of challenges they could tackle.

[André Thivierge]

That's a question I would love to be able to answer.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Your eyes are saying something, but I don't completely understand.

[André Thivierge]

You have to understand the relationship between the veteran and the department in question. That could explain some things.

As I said, I don't really have an answer to that question, but I have some ideas.

We really need to take a look at that department, at its recruiting strategies and its perceptions about veterans' qualifications.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

It's interesting, but it's also possible that veterans have no interest in doing that kind of administrative work. I would understand that.

[André Thivierge]

That may be the case.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

In any case, you shouldn't be tongue-tied. In fact, it would be interesting, because we are also wanting to make recommendations at the end of the report and those are things that could help us.

We all have very high hopes that there will be a lot of veterans working in the department. However, the proportion of those working there is small and hard to understand.

My speaking time is up. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Desilets.

It is now Rachel Blaney's turn.

Ms. Blaney, you have six minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Chair, and I thank all of you for testifying today in front of this committee.

My first question will of course go to Mr. Thivierge.

First of all, I want to thank you for your many years of service. Thank you for that service already to this country and for continuing this important work in Ottawa. I think that's very commendable. I appreciate your working so hard to make it a friendlier place for the people who have served us.

In terms of my first question, we heard really clearly in the testimony last week that one of the biggest challenges when military personnel leave the military and move into the veteran stage in their lives is that there is not a document that meaningfully explains, in a way that the civilian world can understand, the amount of training and knowledge they have. We heard from veterans who talked about leaving the service and then having to be retrained in things they were already experts in, simply because that translation of those amazing skills cannot be carried into the civilian world.

I'm just wondering if you have any feedback or thoughts on how we can make that a little different and better for veterans.

[André Thivierge]

In the past many years, there has been a lot of effort put towards recognizing the skills, competencies and training of military members. I refer to the military civilian recruit training accreditation program of many years ago. At that time, it was the genesis of the PLAR initiative.

I know that over the last few years the transition group and the different organizations within the forces have put together a catalogue of skills and competencies. It's like a dictionary, a catalogue of the skills that are being recognized in the civilian world, with the equivalent in terms of what level of training they have and what corresponds in a civilian trade, for example, but it's still quite a bit of a challenge.

Again, there are some misconceptions about the military training. That's why in terms of solutions it is important to have that continuous dialogue in order to better understand how all those skills and competencies are transferable to the civilian world. A lot of times, it's with the small private enterprises, and this is where the dialogue with that community will help to better understand how those skills are transferable.

The other way around is to have the member who is initiating a transition being able to translate the skills in a language that can be understood by the employer community.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

One of the things you mentioned—through the chair, of course—in your testimony is the fact that there's a stigma about veterans. Often, overcoming that can be a challenge. You talked about working with the private sector to help them understand the realities of the huge asset that it actually is to hire a veteran. I'm just wondering, when we look at this study, whether you think it would be appropriate for VAC to take a more active role in educating employers on the assets that veterans bring.

[André Thivierge]

Certainly. VAC, in fact, would have an advantage in being able to work with the Canadian Armed Forces transition units. We call them the CAF TUs in our jargon. The CAF TUs play a very important role in preparing transitioning members for a second career. In fact, they are the service providers. They are the experts.

The thing is that one of the challenges is to get to the community in order to dispel the myths. My working group on the second career is beginning to do that work. In fact, it wants to understand where those stigmas are coming from and how it can demystify those stigmas. Also, it would be done, as well, with the transitioning members, who have their own stigmas about the employers. I think that understanding where they are coming from will be very helpful in preparing military members for second careers, and also in enabling employers to better understand. Sometimes—what we would like if we were in a perfect world—they will harmonize their recruiting policies with what the veterans can offer.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

When I hear you speak of that, it seems to me that instead of having a broad approach for the whole country, it might make sense to have a more regional and personalized approach across Canada.

Do you have any thoughts on that?