Veterans Affairs Committee on Feb. 13th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 37 of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on Monday, October 3, 2022, the committee resumes its study on the national strategy for veterans employment after service.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the order of Thursday, June 23, 2022. We have members and witnesses attending in person and remotely using the Zoom application.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before you speak. I would remind you that all comments must go through the chair.

In accordance with our routine motion on sound tests, I wish to inform the committee that the witnesses completed the required sound tests prior to the meeting.

Now I would like to welcome our witnesses.

Today we are joined by retired Major André Thivierge, co‑founder and co‑chair of the City of Ottawa Veterans Task Force.

Thank you for joining us in person today. I know we ran into some technical difficulties last time.

From Veteran Staffing Canada we also have Jason Wahl, founder and director, by video conference.

From the Veterans Transition Network we also have Oliver Thorne, executive director, by video conference.

Let's begin with the witnesses' presentations.

Mr. Thivierge, as you know, I'm going to signal you when you have a minute left, and then again when your time is up. The floor is yours for the next five minutes.

[André Thivierge, Co-Founder and Co-Chair, Major (Retired), City of Ottawa Veterans Task Force]

Mr. Chair, honourable members of the committee, I have the pleasure of co‑chairing the City of Ottawa Veterans Task Force, which is tasked by city council with building bridges between the community and organizations in the national capital that provide services to our veterans.

When Canadian Forces members decide to transition to civilian life, they still have many more productive years to offer. Having a meaningful job has always been an important part of the transition. It's vital to understand that former military personnel have different motivations for seeking out a second career. What motivates veterans transitioning to civilian life isn't salary, rewards and benefits, but rather their desire to accomplish the mission and create a positive impact within their work environment. When a veteran becomes a member of a work team, the concept of serving remains a top priority.

Within the community of employers, there continue to be certain stigmas when it comes to seeing veterans as future employees, all of them related to the idea that veterans struggle with mental health problems. Some employers also seem to underestimate the importance of the skills acquired through military experience and training.

However, veterans also harbour certain perceptions and believe certain stigmas about employers. For example, a veteran may act with the belief that employers don't understand veterans, because they may believe that employers have a negative perception of military service and veterans as candidates for a job. These perceptions pose barriers to employment for the veteran and to recruitment for the employer.

One barrier that has contributed to fuelling stigma about veterans is the lack of dialogue between the ecosystem of support for veterans and employers, particularly those in the private sector. I believe that the next steps should involve bridging the gap between the veteran community and all industry sectors in order to address urban legends among both employers and transitioning veterans and gain a better understanding of their impact on the candidate-recruiter relationship. This type of dialogue would provide a foundation to help build productive long-term relationships between the military community and employers.

Within our task force, a number of initiatives have been developed to ensure that human resources departments apply recruitment strategies that recognize the needs and assets of veterans and are also involved in the process of preparing our veterans for the transition to a second career. These kinds of initiatives will inspire a change in culture, not only by preparing veterans for the transition by communicating information, but also by influencing recruitment strategies.

Watching the committee's meetings last week, I was very surprised to learn that relatively few veterans are employed in the federal public service. But what really shocked me was hearing that only 4% of the federal employees who provide services directly to the military community are veterans themselves. That tells me we have our work cut out for us.

In conclusion, the Canadian Armed Forces transition units have made tremendous progress over the past few years, because they've been able to professionalize their delivery of transition services. These services are now provided based on evidence, such as the domains of well-being.

In terms of all the aspects of the transition, particularly access to employment, we have proven that communities like the city of Ottawa can play a role in bringing people together and fostering partnerships based on productive ongoing dialogue. We will continue to build bridges between the employers operating in our community and the ecosystem of support for veterans.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Mr. Thivierge.

Now let's go to Jason Wahl.

You have up to five minutes for your opening statement. Please open your mike and go ahead.

[Jason Wahl, Founder and Director, Veteran Staffing Canada]

First of all, I'd like to thank the chair very much for inviting us here today.

I'll give you a quick rundown. Veteran Staffing was launched in 2016 as an arm of Athenian Group, a technical staffing firm that we founded here in Alberta. We have clients across Canada whom we support in their staffing needs.

Part of that means we have clients looking to us for support in hiring veterans and trying to find sources for that. At the time, we had a resource: the Canada Company's MET program, which was a predecessor to the current transition program and which we found very beneficial. It had resources, so we were able to connect with veterans directly. They had a website on which they posted resumes and profiles we could reach out to. When that program was cancelled and VAC transitioned to the new program, we lost the ability to connect with veterans directly. I think that was something of a misstep in the last term.

I've been recruiting across Canada and the U.S. since I retired from the forces many years ago. One thing I've found is a general lack of ability to source veterans, beyond finding folks on general websites, be it Indeed or Workopolis, where they identify themselves. Organizations, be they public or private, no longer have the ability to reach out to these individuals specifically. That's definitely a shortcoming, in our minds.

The current CTS program provides valued resources to veterans, such as resume writing and interview preparation guides, but it doesn't provide support to the employers for sourcing veterans. That's the area we need to focus on, if you're looking at a new transition program.

One of the other areas we were looking at was trying to find out how many veterans are presently leaving the Department of Defence. A while ago, CBC reported that in the 2021 census, approximately 461,000 veterans self-reported. Veterans Affairs Canada, using a mathematical equation, came up with 617,000 veterans. I think finding the actual number will greatly help us figure out how we can help transition these folks who are moving into the public sector.

Previously, we've had success supporting veterans moving into the public sector, but I think the biggest issue we have is finding the veterans themselves, when they're looking beyond the number of different non-profits that are supporting them.

We've come up with some suggestions and resources that we think would be beneficial.

One of these is a wage subsidy program similar to what's in place for students, newcomers to Canada or under-represented people in the workforce. That would give companies an incentive to go out and source these people.

Secondly, the biggest thing to take away would be a tool or website, run either by Veterans Affairs or externally, that organizations could access to source individuals directly. I think that's a tool we've been missing and desperately in need of since the program was cancelled a couple of years ago.

I look forward to any questions. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much, Mr. Wahl.

We will now go to Oliver Thorne, from the Veterans Transition Network.

Mr. Thorne, you have five minutes for your opening remarks.

[Oliver Thorne, Executive Director, Veterans Transition Network]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee, for the opportunity to be here today.

My name is Oliver Thorne. I'm the executive director of the Veterans Transition Network, which is a registered Canadian charity that provides counselling and transition programs for members and veterans of the Canadian Armed Forces. We deliver these programs across Canada for men and women, in English and French.

I just want to apologize to the francophone members of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs, because I'll be delivering my opening statement in English since my time is limited.

While employment is a common topic of discussion on our programs, the focus of the programs we deliver at VTN is on mental health, family relationships and the military-to-civilian transition. While I'm not by any means a subject matter expert in veteran employment, I can certainly provide the perspective of an organization that has provided transition services for veterans for over a decade.

With that in mind, I want to focus my testimony on two major topics today: access and cultural transition.

In the first place, in our experience delivering services to veterans across Canada for 10 years, a key issue they face in the success of any service they receive is the issue of access. A good employment program will not be effective if it is not accessible to veterans, and particularly if it's not accessible to veterans who struggle the most in transition.

We know from the research that there are a number of criteria associated with a greater difficulty in transition, including a longer service history, involuntary release, service in the junior ranks, service in the army and deployment. These are all associated with greater difficulty in transition after service.

My first recommendation is that if a veteran employment strategy is going to be effective, it must be built with the needs of these veterans in mind. To go even further, with these veterans specifically, for those who are struggling the most it is very likely that they will need other, more immediate transition and rehabilitation services before they are ready to receive employment services.

My second recommendation is that there should be a strong relationship between the veterans rehabilitation program and the services provided through the employment strategy, so they can refer back and forth and ensure that veterans don't slip through the cracks.

The second issue is cultural transition. For veterans, their employment transition occurs at the same time as a significant and major cultural and lifestyle transition. A good employment strategy has to acknowledge this fact and provide the appropriate supports to help veterans navigate that cultural transition so they can be successful in their civilian education and employment after service.

In our experience as a service provider, we see veterans reporting two major gaps. The first is a skills gap in certain skills that are required in a civilian environment versus those in the military. We see this particularly in professional communication style, and in financial literacy as well. These are pieces that both the private sector and the education sector do a very good job of preparing people for when they go out into the working world after post-secondary education, but the requirements in these areas in the military and civilian context are quite different.

Once again, for an employment strategy to be successful, it must consider that and it must provide practical training to help bridge that skills gap.

The second gap that we see reported is around social support. Particularly for veterans moving from a service environment to post-secondary education, we see that very often their experience—where they are in terms of their personal transition and lifestyle—is quite different from the environment of other people around them in that context. Providing the appropriate supports so that their needs can be met and they have a place where they can interact with peers and receive social support is going to be critical to the success of those education and employment programs.

With that, thank you again for the opportunity to present. I welcome your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Thorne, and thank you to all of you. Also, thank you for the work you are doing for veterans.

On behalf of the committee, I'd like to say thank you for your service, Mr. Wahl and Mr. Thivierge.

Now we're going to start the round of questions of six minutes.

I'm pleased to start with Mrs. Cathay Wagantall, for six minutes, please.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you, Chair, and I thank you for your service, Mr. Wahl and Mr. Thivierge.

I'll start with you, if that's fine.

I am curious about your program. I see that you are partnered with Veterans Affairs, Soldier On and the Multifaith Housing Initiative here in Ottawa, which I think is wonderful.

You mentioned the problem with the public service and how there's a limited scope, it seems, of employed veterans within VAC itself. Recently the Public Service Commission—which is responsible for administering the hiring priorities within the public service—indicated that only 330 appointments out of 64,796 hires in 2021 and 2022 were veterans. That's less than half a percent.

You indicate that you're doing a lot of preparation; a lot of work has been done to build strong and enduring relationships, and a number of initiatives have been developed.

Are you indicating, then, that the City of Ottawa Veterans Task Force has articulated these initiatives and that you have them available in writing?

[André Thivierge]

Okay. We're a working group. Our second-career working group is initiating a relationship, particularly with the human resource departments. I think that's going to be a vast initiative, because our focus now is to get to the private enterprise, but the thing is the public sector.... We will get to the public sector, definitely—

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

That's what I wanted to hear. Thank you.

Then human resources within the public sector should also be able to take advantage of the things you are working on and learning here, and those will be transferred over to make sure those human resources departments have access to the same things that highlight the needs of veterans. Is that right?

[André Thivierge]

Yes. It is in our working plan to get to the public sector, but really, on the focus, rather than going to the CEOs of the companies, it's much more advantageous to go with the HR, because they are the ones who write the policy and who are in charge of recruitment, and this is really where we can influence.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

I'm really pleased to hear that.

As you're working, are there documents that will become available to indicate the successes you're having? I'm thinking of other communities as well that really need to incorporate this type of thing where they want to be an asset to veterans who are looking for employment.

[André Thivierge]

When we are more advanced in the process, there will eventually be documents. We are starting with notes from the meeting, from the round tables that we are doing. Eventually, that will translate into documents when we have sufficient material and tangible recommendations.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you very much.

I have one question for you, Mr. Thorne. You've indicated that although you received grants to enable the growth of the program, the Veterans Transition Network would remain an independent organization. Do you see that as a positive thing? Does that enable you to be more effective with the veterans you work with, and why so...?

[Oliver Thorne]

If I understand you correctly, you're referring specifically to the breakdown of funding between the government and private.... Is that correct?

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Yes.

[Oliver Thorne]

We are a registered service provider for Veterans Affairs Canada. We have been for almost a decade now.

What it means is that veterans with an eligible claim can attend our program and have those costs covered by Veterans Affairs. I would say that 30% to 50% of the veterans who access our program do not have a claim with Veterans Affairs, for whatever reason. Our organization is engaging with a segment of the veteran population that has been either unable or unwilling to access service from Veterans Affairs, so I would say it's partly a necessity.

It is partly by design that we seek charitable funding to support those veterans, because we never turn them away. They're always put through the program at no cost, but it's also a growing necessity because, although we're a registered service provider, we have seen the rate of approval for veterans who are eligible drop drastically, particularly over the past three years.

We see a number of veterans who are eligible to be funded by Veterans Affairs. They have the correct claim, but that paperwork is not being completed, and we are unfortunately not receiving those funds. As a matter of policy, we'll never turn them away, so we have to then lean on our charitable funding in order to ensure they get the program.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Okay. Thank you so much, and thank you for doing that.

I'd like to cede the last minute and a half or so to Terry.

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Thank you for being here today.

I have just one question. Really, the strategy for the veterans who struggle the most is a lot of the concern we hear. Probably the most shocking thing I've heard since I've been here is how many don't have homes, and you're not going to get a job if you don't have a place to live.

Has there ever been any thought from any organizations—the government seems to work in silos here—to work with employers to perhaps have some type of homes solution with some companies? In my riding, employers can't get employees, and they're doing that now for tourism, as an example, where they're going to build this. I would think that perhaps people who come out of the armed forces may be used to having people around, and it actually may work well. I just don't know if anyone has that as part of their strategy.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Who is your question for?

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

It's for any one of them.

Has there ever been any thought on that? You had a wage subsidy, as an example, for helping out. Do we have something that could tie into companies?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Answer in 20 seconds, please.

[Jason Wahl]

I'll give you a quick example that does take place out here in Alberta.

ATCO is an example. They set up the transition villages for veterans, which is an excellent program. The biggest issue that you run into with housing—and I know IVET has the same thing—is that a lot of veterans do not understand what they qualify for, because there are so many different understandings of what a veteran is.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Wahl.

Now let's go to Mrs. Rechie Valdez for six minutes or less.

Please go ahead.

[Rechie Valdez, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses, and a special thanks to those who have served our country.

Through you, Mr. Chair, my first question is for Mr. Thivierge.

In your opening, you mentioned how veterans have mental health challenges or different stigmas. Can you offer a recommendation for the employment strategy so that this can be addressed?