Evidence of meeting #45 for Veterans Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was training.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:10 p.m.
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
Thank you for that. I think that is a big gap.
Do you want to add something, Christine? Okay, I wanted to make sure.
One of the things we've noted very clearly is that the data collection by both the CAF and VAC is very poor. That lack of collecting data doesn't allow us to follow the paths of women through the system, so I'm wondering if you could speak to that. When I get more time, I'll come back to the rest of you on that question.
5:10 p.m.
Major (Retired), As an Individual
I know that in our training we use stats, and they're mostly American, because that's where we can pull them from. In the U.S., two out of every three survivors of MST will leave the military within a year if they're not given the right support. We can extrapolate that and say it's probably similar in Canada, because we're so closely linked, to which my response is always this: Knowing how starved our Canadian Armed Forces are for members, I don't think we can afford to lose two out of three of anybody, especially considering that supporting members when they come forward should be a no-brainer. That should be a really easy fix, but as I've said, there is still no mandatory training for that really important trauma first aid, that mental health first aid, when somebody comes forward.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Blake Richards
Thank you for that.
We'll move to the next five minutes, with Fraser Tolmie.
April 17th, 2023 / 5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Fraser Tolmie Conservative Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK
Thank you very much for joining us today.
You know we always say thank you for your service, and we do mean it.
Ms. Wood, you pointed out that after a horrendous experience, you ran away. We'll, you've run back, and you're here for a fight, so we appreciate that. We recognize your hearts and what you're here to do, to make a positive change. We live in a civilized society, but we don't always feel like we're civilized, so thank you for your time.
Major, I'd like to ask you a couple of questions. I will do my best to get through the list I have. Can you speak more to the training your group has done? What does the training look like? What are the results you're seeing that you can share with this group?
5:15 p.m.
Major (Retired), As an Individual
Sure.
The training we created is as a result of my taking training on my own with the Association of Alberta Sexual Assault Services. It's one of the only groups in Canada that offers first responder training which is just that—that support for first disclosure—as well as training through mentors and violence prevention strategies. That's Dr. Jackson Katz's group in the States on bystander engagement intervention.
I've taken the stuff that I've learned and implemented it into a military construct. We use our stories as a way to leverage that humanity, get in there and, again, shift somebody's moral compass to make them see us more as human beings and stop objectifying us.
The results that we've seen are nothing less than astounding. I've had 30 people in a room all at one point have that lightbulb moment. I try to bring other survivors with me as much as possible, so they can experience that same sort of feeling of incredible validation when all of a sudden we realize that people in the room get it. I get commanders reaching back to me afterwards, asking if it is okay if they reach out to a survivor they screwed up support for three years ago, and if that would make a difference in their healing now. In this case, I always say, absolutely, please do that now.
We get so much positive feedback. We do a pre- and post-course survey. Pre-survey, about 80% of people come into the training with other training. I want to be clear: They come in with the training that's been established by the CAF already, but they are not confident in how to support somebody. That shifts to over 90% afterwards. Now they know some things to say; more importantly they know what not to say. Now, when they're having those tough conversations, they feel confident that they're going to be able to help somebody and not hurt them.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Fraser Tolmie Conservative Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK
I see that you're bridging your past experience and creating something new, which is very entrepreneurial. That leads me to my next question.
How could Veterans Affairs Canada do a better job of supporting female entrepreneurs like you?
5:15 p.m.
Major (Retired), As an Individual
I think we need more programming, specifically for female entrepreneurs. I know we have the ability, for example, within our RFP process, to identify and say that we would like priority to be given to veteran-owned companies or female veteran-owned companies. I want to be clear, that doesn't mean I want anybody to be left out. All things being equal, maybe it might give you another point in the rubric when it's examined.
Right now, nothing like this exists. I'm competing toe to toe with large academic institutions with lots of experience and everything else. We're coming in saying that we have some subject matter expertise as well as the psychology. We're trying to fight that fight.
Yes, I think there could be programs created specifically for female veteran entrepreneurs, because this is a road that a lot of us would probably go down. We can't necessarily go back to the career that, again, we were abused and assaulted in. That's really traumatizing. It really harms us, but we might not have the confidence to step out and say, yes, we want to start something on our own.
I don't even want to overstate it and say a safety net, but if there was more support in that area, I think you would see a lot more going that way.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Fraser Tolmie Conservative Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK
Well, that's a great segue into my next question.
We've touched on this in previous meetings and a bit tonight. I understand that in the U.S. a certain percentage of government contracts must go to veteran-owned businesses.
What do you think of that policy they have?
5:15 p.m.
Major (Retired), As an Individual
I think that policy is excellent. We've actually recently just registered for business in the U.S. We've been invited to present at Fort Leavenworth in the fall. We're starting to bridge into the U.S.
I know we brought up earlier what other countries are doing. We're unique in the sense that we are staffed by veteran survivors who want to make a positive change. When we've presented in the U.S., which we've done now twice at conferences, it's been really eye-opening for lots of the other countries to see us. We have standing invitations to attend some of these now.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Blake Richards
You have about 10 seconds, so I think we'll stop you there.
We'll move now to the last questioner for the second round of questioning. That's Wilson Miao, for five minutes.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Wilson Miao Liberal Richmond Centre, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, all, for joining us today for this important study.
While I listened to your remarks, it really filled me with heartfelt sympathy, because I was raised by my mother. I love her so much. I can't imagine something like this happening. For all of you to be here today, sharing this is like stabbing your wound again. I don't know how many times you guys have shared this story with people in seeking help, but it's unacceptable.
At the same time, I understand. Donna, you mentioned right now that our military is always looking for new recruits, but hearing these stories sets them back, in a sense, to wonder why they would want to serve our country in that way.
I want to ask this of each of you. When you first started, what made you want to serve Canada? Were you expecting to experience such trauma?
Please go ahead.
5:20 p.m.
Veteran Advocate, As an Individual
When I joined, I wanted to keep girls and women safe. That was my idea. The Afghan war was still raging. I had seen videos of women in combat gear providing assistance to women and children, and that aligned with my beliefs and my desire.
I never expected to experience what I did, but I want to make sure that when I say “experience what I did”, it's not just military sexual trauma. There have been a lot of resources and attention focused on that specific issue, and I have spent years being part of that voice, but it is more than just military sexual trauma that's affecting women. Number one is the VAC table of disabilities.
If I may, Mr. Chair—I'm sorry, sir—just respond to something Mr. Desilets said earlier, which was that he felt shame as a man. Everyone has been asking where the oversight is and what's....
I have to say that I believe that you who are sitting on this committee are the oversight. We are here baring our souls. We are willing to do this because you are the ones with the power. It's not us. We can come and we can talk, but we can't change it. It is on our elected representatives.
I would hope that over the last two weeks, as you were all back at your constituencies, you took time to meet with women veterans to talk about their needs, if you're sitting on this committee. I would hope that all of you did that, because it is larger than just military sexual trauma.
I will stop there, because I know everybody wants to speak, but I needed to make that point.
5:20 p.m.
Executive Director, LGBT Purge Fund
It's a great question.
I joined the Canadian Armed Forces because I love Canada. I believe in the fundamental values of Canada and the proposition that we are a just society or always pursuing the idea of equality and justice. These were things that chimed for me.
I realize how much service is of value to me. Serving others was something that I was honoured and proud to do.
I did not expect the level of misogyny that I experienced in the Canadian Armed Forces. It was part and remains part of the culture of the military. This shocked me.
I also did not expect to be so marginalized among the marginalized. As a lesbian in the military, sometimes I still feel excluded from other equality-seeking organizations. We have to be much bigger in our consideration of how we're thinking about the intersectional aspects—racialized, indigenous, aging, trans and other veterans. We owe them respect and fundamental dignity.
That's also the driver of my work today. It's actually about service.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Blake Richards
We will stop there. We're over the time for this round.
This concludes the second round of questioning. We are coming near the end of our meeting, but because of the start time of our meeting we do have this room and the resources that go with it available to us until about 5:40.
If the witnesses are comfortable with it, I'm going to give us about another 10 minutes or so. I can give each party one more round of two and a half minutes.
If our witnesses are comfortable, that's what I will do. It looks like that's the case.
The first questioner in the third round will be Cathay Wagantall for two and a half minutes.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK
Thank you very much, Chair.
Again, thank you so much for being here. You are contributing to the potential for us to do a good job. Thank you.
I would like to bring up this note in the information you provided to us, Donna. It talks about—and you said—even the “small things like a benefit to join a facility that offers female-only areas”. This is something that our society and our cultures are losing and...don't understand how they are destroying our culture and potential.
Can you talk a bit more about that? You're talking about after service, right?
5:25 p.m.
Major (Retired), As an Individual
Yes.
For me, going to the gym is very triggering. I was sexually assaulted in a military gym in 2012. A lot of my assault and harassment was around physical fitness.
I'm not alone in that. A lot of survivors of sexual assault have a hard time pursuing fitness, for a number of reasons. One is that mentally we don't allow ourselves the gift of physical fitness, because making ourselves more attractive is potentially attracting that attention. It's wrong, but that's what we think.
Of course, we also understand the mental and physical benefits of physical fitness, but right now there is no funding available for women-only gyms.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK
If I can add to that, so much of what's happening at the veterans level is because of what happened while serving.
I had the opportunity to go on the HMCS Fredericton. It was a phenomenal experience, except there were many things I noticed that would make me very uncomfortable as a woman on that ship. I don't think there was a lot of thought given to that back in 1980-whatever.
What is this going to mean in terms of how we do things, or do we even want to go there?
5:25 p.m.
Major (Retired), As an Individual
Joining the CAF is learning that you are heavily recruited. We read all the headlines about how they want to reach 25%. However, you're joining an organization that's not built for you in any way, shape or form. The equipment is not built for you; the uniform is not built for you; you might not have a washroom in the building if it's a legacy—
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
5:25 p.m.
Major (Retired), As an Individual
Nothing. You're not allowed....
For me—and I've spoken to other women—serving my country meant learning that the leaders and peers I worked shoulder to shoulder with I had to trust with my life, but I couldn't trust them with my body.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Blake Richards
Thank you. That's all we have time for.
Ms. Wagantall, thank you for that.
We will move to Churence Rogers for two and a half minutes.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
Churence Rogers Liberal Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and welcome to our guests.
Unfortunately, we have very little time. I had a couple of questions, which I'll skip in the interests of getting in that two and a half minutes.
The main thing I want to know from all of you, and I'll give each of you an opportunity to comment, is that we're doing this study and at the end of the day we're going to be making recommendations. From your perspective, what do you prioritize as your number one or number two recommendation that you want us to include in this study?
Christine, can we start with you?