Veterans Affairs Committee on June 1st, 2023

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Basically, what are those seven areas? Can you name a few? Also, does a psychologist make the assessment?

[Cmdre Daniel Bouchard]

The assessment is done with the transition adviser. In terms of areas, it could be finances, home or future plans, for example. If the individual is in Ottawa but wants to retire in Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean, they will have to move. So we need to have a plan and find out what services can be offered there.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Perfect. Thank you very much.

Ms. Bourgon, do you have a message for women who are considering joining the Canadian Armed Forces? Recruitment has not lived up to expectations. I'd simply like to hear what you have to say about that. There are concerns about the harmful effects of the culture that still exists within the Canadian Armed Forces. Could that be a deterrent?

[LGen Lise Bourgon]

Thank you for your question.

I spend a lot of time trying to sell the Canadian Armed Forces as an employer of choice. There are incredible opportunities in the CAF. I had an absolutely incredible career. My daughter studies at the Royal Military College of Canada in Kingston and my son just graduated two weeks ago.

We have to stop looking back and focus on the future. As I said, the Canadian Armed Forces today are not what they were when I joined in 1987; there have been a lot of changes. So we really have to focus on opportunities and stop focusing on the negative, because that's not the current reality of the Canadian Armed Forces.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Blake Richards]

Thank you.

Now we'll go with two and a half minutes for Rachel Blaney from the NDP.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Lieutenant-General Bourgon, I want to come back to you.

Just to follow up on the question that I asked last time, is there a way that women veterans could offer feedback on their lessons learned to support quality assurance? I hear very clearly about the steering committee and that there's a lot of work happening. I appreciate that and will probably ask you a question about that in a moment.

What are the ways—or are there ways—that women veterans can actually give feedback to the CAF on what would have been helpful for them and made their journey a lot better? I think that is such an important essence, because they have lessons for us to learn from.

[LGen Lise Bourgon]

Thank you very much.

That's a very good point. We do stakeholder engagement, so maybe we have to be a little bit more diversified in that engagement and give voice to our women veterans to come back and say that this is their experience, so that we can listen to them and potentially share with them.

One thing we forget is that our veterans are our best recruiters, because women and visible minorities, especially, join the military based on advice from people they know. It's not like they need permission, but they like being told that they should apply to the CAF because they're going to have a great career. The more we can enable veterans to have that voice and really talk positively about their experience, the more we're going to recruit. That's important.

There's that exchange of lessons learned, and maybe we have to share also what has changed in the last five or 10 years so that they better understand and can maybe say, “Okay, I feel good, because you've changed what happened to me. Now I'm not invisible anymore.” Then they can be a positive voice.

I take that point and will try to get more stakeholders and veterans into our stakeholder engagement to get their feedback.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you.

I have 10 seconds left, so I won't have an opportunity...but I do think it is profoundly important. When you talked about that recruitment aspect, we know that it's getting harder and harder for the CAF to recruit. We need to heal some of those wounds so that we can see that opportunity.

I'm excited to see that happen.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Blake Richards]

Thank you.

We will now move to Terry Dowdall for five minutes.

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just want to say what an excellent job you're doing tonight.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Blake Richards]

That's not going to get you any extra time, but nice try.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

I'm hoping to get next week off.

First of all, I want to thank all of you for your service and for being here on such a hot night to talk to us and hopefully help with our study.

Before this committee, I was on national defence for quite some time. I'm going to follow up with Ms. Wagantall's comments about our study on sexual misconduct in the military. It was certainly a tough story for everyone to talk about and to go through.

I was looking at the numbers. I know you're saying that it's good and that there's more reporting than there was earlier, but I'm just curious as to how many.... You said also that justice is taking its toll. Out of those reports—a lot were reported—how many actually happened? Is there an increase in justifiable cases?

[LGen Lise Bourgon]

Again, this is not my field of expertise. I'm in military personnel command. Chief professional conduct and culture is more the agency that is tracking that, so I wouldn't be able to answer your question, sir.

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Okay, so a follow-up to that is that, if there are more being reported, we're having a problem with the offenders, not so much with the victims.

What is the CAF doing to get that message out to those who perhaps aren't taking it seriously enough, and what did we learn from that?

We studied this for quite some time. I don't know out of the study what's actually been implemented. I don't know if you could give me an idea of what new things have been implemented to change that so the offenders know exactly their role, their responsibility and what it means.

[LGen Lise Bourgon]

Thank you very much.

When we look at sexual misconduct, there are many causes, but again, it's looking at the environment, the training, the education and the support that we provide.

We've put into place a lot of initiatives, especially during training and education throughout our careers at specific points, on that culture evolution of what is and is not acceptable. We just released our new ethos, “The CAF Ethos: Trusted to Serve”, which clearly established what is acceptable and what is not acceptable, with inclusion as a characteristic. It's not one little answer, but it's across the spectrum of that culture evolution and that behaviour that it's not acceptable. I think we're seeing a difference on the ground, because people better understand what is acceptable and what is not acceptable.

The reporting piece, again for me.... I know that I don't want to see more, but I feel that, if people are more confident in coming forward, it's a good sign.

We will work on our numbers, and I think, as we look in the future, we will see those numbers decrease. Again, my expectation is that they will start to decrease because people understand. Clearly, we are dealing with every situation that is reported, so there are clear actions taken on cases. You can't get away with it anymore. That is absolutely unacceptable. That's a positive change.

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

I hope that's the case. I hope that we are getting better.

Certainly, I can tell you, as a father of two daughters, I think that is a big moment when we're trying to recruit more people. I think it's a real spot we have to work on, with the offenders almost as much as with the victims, to know how serious it is and what it means to their careers. I don't know if that's being reminded enough because certainly the numbers are going up. That would be my comment.

[LGen Lise Bourgon]

Yes, and as I said, my daughter joined the military. As a mother, if I had any doubt about her safety, I would not have encouraged her to join the military. I feel confident that we're making great progress.

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Do I have any time left?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Blake Richards]

You have about 15 seconds.

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

I'll cede it to my next round. Thank you.

Thank you very much.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Blake Richards]

Thank you, Mr. Dowdall.

We'll now turn to Rechie Valdez for five minutes of questioning.

[Rechie Valdez, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for joining. I do appreciate everything you've done for our country and all your sacrifices. I appreciate the perspective you brought, which is a very look-forward, very hopeful message. I really do appreciate it.

I'll start by directing my questions to you, Lieutenant-General Bourgon, and then feel free to redirect if needed.

I've been curious about, specifically, the adjustments we're making to uniforms or to equipment for women. I just want to have reassurances that, as we're making those adjustments, it not only will be less abrasive for their bodies but also will not compromise their safety. Can you touch on that?

[LGen Lise Bourgon]

Thank you very much.

That's absolutely vital. Women need to be able to do their jobs. They need to be safe while doing their jobs, to be protected and to be enabled to be all that they can be.

I always go back and say that we asked women to deploy in the field with boots that did not fit their feet and with rucksacks that were way too big. How can you be the best that you can be if the equipment is designed for a six-foot tall man?

It's hard enough.... We have to be honest. Physically, we are at a disadvantage against some men. If we're put at a disadvantage additionally because of the poor equipment we have, how can we be equal to or as good as, or even better than men? It's super important that we have the right equipment to protect our women.