Veterans Affairs Committee on June 1st, 2023

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Blake Richards]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 54 of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

We are continuing our study on the experience of women veterans, and we have three witnesses with us today from the Department of National Defence.

We have with us Major-General Marc Bilodeau, surgeon general, Canadian Armed Forces; Commodore Daniel Bouchard, commander of the Canadian Armed Forces transition group; Lieutenant-General Lise Bourgon, acting chief of military personnel; and Lieutenant-Colonel Andrea Tuka, national practice leader, psychiatry, who is with us by video conference.

We will have opening remarks.

Lieutenant-General Bourgon, I think you're giving the opening remarks on behalf of the group this evening, so we'll give you roughly five minutes for opening remarks.

If you want to turn on your microphone, you can give those remarks now, and then we'll go into questioning from the members.

[Lieutenant-General Lise Bourgon, Acting Chief of Military Personnel, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National Defence]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good evening.

First I would like to acknowledge that we are gathered here on the traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe nation, and I would like to take this opportunity to recognize our commitment to meaningful reconciliation with indigenous leaders and peoples across the land.

I am joined today by Major-General Marc Bilodeau, surgeon general.

Major-General Bilodeau is the functional authority when it comes to the professional and technical aspects of medical and dental care for our members.

With us virtually is Lieutenant-Colonel Andrea Tuka, one of our mental health professionals.

I am also joined by Commodore Daniel Bouchard, commander of the Canadian Armed Forces Transition Group.

Within DND and the CAF, I am responsible for recruitment, training, retention, education, career management, policy, pay and benefits, health services, military career transition, morale and welfare programs, and a host of other support services.

My day job is quite busy, as you've just heard.

I am also the defence champion for women.

Equity, inclusion and women's health are issues we take very, very seriously, and we are pleased to be here to talk tonight about the health and wellness of women veterans.

I would like to thank the committee for this important study.

I want to start by highlighting the work we have done so far to improve the health and well-being of women in the military, and to talk about the issues we're still tackling.

With the expertise of my team, I have the privilege of leading an important initiative to improve health care for women in the military by identifying barriers within our current service delivery models and tackling those issues head-on.

Currently, we are focused on four main lines of effort.

The first is injury and illness prevention.

The second focus is about providing evidence- and needs-based care.

The third is quality and performance assessment within our health care clinics and our programs.

Our fourth main line of effort is research and engagement, which is the foundation of the three others.

Within the forces, we know that illness and injury prevention and access to timely health care are linked to long-term physical and psychological well-being. For women in uniform, prevention begins with relevant, targeted and evidence-based initiatives, such as our physical fitness requirements for women and our many mental health supports.

Prevention also includes standardized screening processes for serious illness, such as early cancer detection.

When it comes to caring for our members, the CAF continues to maintain a world-class evidence-based medical system. We do this by adopting best practices for clinical care and integrating policies and programs that are specific and tailored to women in military settings, such as by adding clinical staff to our care delivery units within our own health clinics.

Through our performance assessments, we regularly examine how well our clinical services are meeting the spectrum of women's health care needs.

And it's through research and engagement that we continue to seek a better understanding of health and mental health risk factors, and how these are influenced by occupational demands.

On the subject of occupational demands, it is important we talk about military families as a whole. I often say that we recruit members but we retain families. The demands we place on families are significant, so we continue to work on solutions to reduce the impact of military service on our families.

Currently we are rethinking how and why we move and sometimes separate families due to military service. Through “Seamless Canada”, a federal-provincial-territorial initiative that looks to address the impact that moving within Canada has on our military families, we are improving access to health care and child care services for our members and their families when they move to a different province or territory. We are also examining prenatal and postnatal support and occupational assessments associated with fertility and reproduction.

However, as we continue to care for the complex health care needs of women and families through our many initiatives, it remains clear that a comprehensive approach is what is required. Women and gender-diverse personnel deserve to have their health and wellness made a national priority from the time they put on the uniform through to transition and retirement.

Veterans have given their best to Canada.

Therefore, the health of women veterans requires and deserves a special focus of the kind that my team and I have initiated. To be frank, women have not always received the special attention they deserve. As women, our needs are different from men's—not better, not worse, simply different. Let's recognize these differences as a strength.

Indeed, the CAF is changing for the better. If we have healthier serving women, we will have healthier veterans. After all, we are all part of the military family.

We look forward to your questions.

Thank you very much. Merci. Meegwetch.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Blake Richards]

Thank you for that.

For the first round of questions, we have four interventions, one for each party, in the following order: the Conservative Party, the Liberal Party, the Bloc Québécois and the NDP.

From the Conservative Party, Mr. Tolmie, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to our guests for your interventions and for joining us tonight.

As we said in the short preamble to this meeting, we're here to find facts and get some information. I do have a list of questions, but one has recently popped into my mind, so I'd like to start off with a question for Lieutenant-General Lise Bourgon.

I was recently given some information that we have some pilots who used to be wing standard in the military, and they would like to re-enrol. They're not being able to re-enrol right now.

The CDS used to be able to waive the fact that they didn't have a university degree. The CDS used to be able to waive that. Now it's the ministry of national defence. That's taking four to six months, so we have a backlog of pilots needing to be trained.

Have you heard of that? If so, why is it taking four to six months? Why has the ministry of national defence stepped in when it's a requirement that it should be the CDS?

[LGen Lise Bourgon]

The requirements for officers to have an officer corps degree comes from the Somalia inquiry and the recommendations made to ensure we had a better professionalized military officer corps. That came after the Somalia inquiry, and it is a ministerial authority to grant waivers for that.

We clearly understand that with reconstitution, in the space where we are right now, we are working to facilitate this. Hopefully, there will be a solution forthcoming. We're tracking this issue and we're working hard on finding a solution.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you for clarifying that and for validating that question.

As you know, the DND and Veterans Affairs have different standards when assessing injuries and disabilities and determining whether or not they are service related.

This can lead to situations of veterans being medically released from the CAF, yet when they go to VAC for help, they're told their injury is not, in fact, service-related. This creates a huge gap, and many veterans end up falling though the cracks, as we've learned through numerous meetings.

Why do DND and VAC have different injury assessment standards? What needs to be done in order to harmonize these injury assessment standards?

[LGen Lise Bourgon]

I'll give the floor to Major-General Bilodeau to comment on the differences between VAC and CAF.

The one thing we clearly need to understand is that some of our military members are being released medically for causes that are not linked to duty. If I develop diabetes today, I will be released medically in the future. It cannot be attributed to military duty, but it's still a reason to be released medically from the CAF. There are slight differences.

I'll give the floor to Major-General Bilodeau to talk about those differences.

[Major-General Marc Bilodeau, Surgeon General, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National Defence]

The process to adjudicate and the criteria used to adjudicate are different between the two departments because we have different mandates.

The Canadian Armed Forces mandate is to care for our members, and not so much to look at benefits but at the health care they need. The Veterans Affairs mandate is different; they have more of a pension benefit mandate. Our criteria are looked at through a different lens. Our lens is really related to the health care they need, while Veterans Affairs looks more at the law that drives benefits.

I do not have to make a determination on whether it's service-related because it doesn't matter for the care I provide them, with some exceptions for our reservists. Only our reservists require determination, and that determination is made to decide it they are eligible or not for the care.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

I'm going to merge a couple of points that were made in the first question with regard to previous service when you were talking about reservists.

Veterans automatically lose their security clearance on the day they are released from the CAF, unless they start a new job that requires it the very next day. Many veterans lose their security clearance upon being released. They then find civilian employment that requires security clearance shortly after their release. Unfortunately, this means they have to go through the whole process again to get their security clearance.

What would need to be done in order to speed up this process or to extend top secret security clearance for military personnel who already have it in order to keep it a bit longer, should they find employment? What would need to be done to speed up the process and reduce bureaucracy?

[LGen Lise Bourgon]

That is a very good question.

Sadly, this is not within the chief of military personnel's authority. This is more for the vice chief of the defence staff and our director of general security. We can't really answer this question.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Blake Richards]

You have about 10 seconds.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

I have about 10 seconds, so I'm going to say thank you very much for joining us. We do appreciate it. I'll leave some room for others to be able to ask some questions. I'm being kind tonight.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Blake Richards]

You took 14 seconds to say that. We'll subtract it from your next round.

For the next six minutes, we have Mr. Darrell Samson from the Liberal Party.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you very much.

Thank you all for being here today, and, of course, for your service.

We've had a number of meetings that were very much focused on veterans after they leave the military. The opportunity to speak with you today is that much more important because we can deal with the transition process that begins while the member is active.

Lieutenant-General Bourgon, you talked about the barriers women face during transition and some of the strategies your team is putting together. Can you expand on that, please?

[LGen Lise Bourgon]

Are you asking about the barriers during transition or the barriers to services?

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

You referred to barriers to services in your presentation. We can talk about transition afterwards.

[LGen Lise Bourgon]

This is super-interesting, because this is a question very close to my heart. In 36 years in the military as a maritime helicopter pilot, I always felt like a square peg that had to fit into a round hole. I never felt like the rest.

I spent a lot of time on a fellowship looking at inclusion and diversity in the CAF. I wish there was one answer, one thing that we could identify as what is required, but it's across the spectrum. Inclusion is across the spectrum. When we look at our human resources policy, when we look at our health services, when we look at our equipment, when we look at our succession planning, when we look at our careers and family services, we see that the Canadian Armed Forces were designed by men for men. It's a reality to which we have to adjust.

However, now we have to go back and look at everything we do—all our policies—and look at each and every one of them to make sure women and diverse people feel like they belong in the CAF. It's not only one piece; there are a gazillion—that's a mathematical term—pieces that need to be changed.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

So there are a number of differences to consider. What strategies have you put in place over the past two or three years to facilitate this transition or to deal with these challenges?

[LGen Lise Bourgon]

Thank you very much.

When I came into this role, as you heard, we took the time to look at the overall responsibilities of the chief of military personnel, and then to draw up an action plan for inclusion and diversity throughout my service.

What could we do better? For example, we launched the women's health care initiative. We're also looking at infrastructure and equipment. As part of the new contract with LogistiCore for new equipment, we are careful to provide better support to women, for example by offering them better boot sizes. Last year, we also launched a refund for waterproof underwear. It's the same thing for the bras: we need equipment that works for us.

The same is true for the transition to civilian life. How do we eliminate the bias in our system so that everyone has a chance to succeed? Now, at every transition meeting, there is a person in charge of diversity and inclusion who is there to promote that perspective, from civilian employees with the military. They listen to make sure that what we're saying makes sense.

Let's also not forget the feminization of ranks, breastfeeding policies and other measures. We've made a lot of changes in the past two years, but there's still a lot more to do. We're not done yet.

How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.

The elephant is big, but we'll get there.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

I still have two minutes.

You talked about moving. I've always found that very difficult to understand. As you know, in the past, members of the Canadian Armed Forces were mostly men; barely one-sixth were women. So it was often the woman who had to be transferred with her husband. If she was a teacher—I was in the teaching profession—she didn't have a position once she got to where the family had been transferred. These transfers therefore always raised the issue of the lack of employment and support for women.

You referred to that in your opening remarks. What can you tell us about that, in addition to the fact that we're trying to reduce the number of moves? We've just completed a study on the employment of veterans after their military service. Are you working on this issue and perhaps developing a strategy?

[LGen Lise Bourgon]

That's a great question. I will try to answer fairly quickly, because if you had two minutes, there is quite a bit less left.

We're doing this with the Seamless Canada initiative, and its steering committee is holding discussions with the provinces and territories on how to facilitate employment after a transfer. As you say, relocating spouses arrive in a new province and their professional qualifications must be recognized to facilitate their job search. Every time they move, they start all over again.

We are working very hard on this issue with the provinces and territories. We are making progress, slowly.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

So you are making efforts to have the provinces better recognize the professional qualifications of the people who accompany the military members, as they already do for immigration.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Blake Richards]

Excellent. You did much better than Mr. Tolmie. You were bang on.

You have 14 extra seconds next time. There you go.

Now, from the Bloc Québécois, we have Mr. Desilets for six minutes.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Good evening, colleagues.

Thank you to our guests.

Ms. Bourgon, you represent a wonderful balance between the extraordinary professional, the strong woman, the experienced woman and the good life, because when we talk to you, we see that you are a funny, down‑to‑earth woman, which I think adds to your credibility.

You made a video about your journey as a helicopter pilot, which is called Sea King, if I'm not mistaken. I watched it twice. I understood it the first time, but I wanted to watch it again to take it all in. I found it really fascinating. I invite everyone to watch it. It's really interesting, because you explain it all so simply.

After watching this video, are we to understand that we'll never again have to fight to have women's equipment adapted to their particular morphology?

[LGen Lise Bourgon]

We continue to fight every day. Every procurement program for new equipment requires a gender-based analysis, or GBA plus. We really have to look at our population. It continues.

For the past two years, we have had an anthropometric database. We really studied all the women in the Canadian Armed Forces, their height, their measurements and so on, so we have a better idea of what we need in terms of equipment. That's part of the challenge.

The second part of the challenge is to ensure that the industry is able to deliver what is requested. There are certain pieces of equipment that are difficult to obtain. When you look at the cockpit of an aircraft, in terms of the size, the length of arms required and so on, you can't tailor the dimensions to 100% of the Canadian population. Where do you put the box so that everything fits? It's a difficult choice.

There are also things like ballistic protection plates, where the technology isn't yet adapted to our needs because we represent only a small percentage of global purchases. That's also a challenge. We're aware of it, and we're working on it.