Veterans Affairs Committee on March 4th, 2022

[Todd Ross]

Yes. I gave the example of the chaplains. There are people being released now who are experiencing post-traumatic stress because of dealing with chaplains within the military. That is an ongoing issue. There are other examples.

It is very difficult within the military environment to be an openly gay, lesbian, trans or bi person and to be accepted by everyone.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you so much for your testimony, Mr. Ross.

We are grateful to you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Desilets.

Right now, I would like to invite MP Rachel Blaney for six minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to thank both Mr. Ross and Mr. Thorne for their testimony.

Of course, thank you, Mr. Ross, for your service to our country. It is a deep sadness that we still struggle on this planet to look at basic human rights and live that way and really recognize human beings as human beings.

My first question is going to you, Mr. Ross. I found your four points very interesting. The first one I would like to touch on is the idea of ongoing training. Specifically, you talked about the purge and making that clear. I'm assuming that, as they're addressing those files, regardless of their role, people will be able to assess that more appropriately. I also imagine that it would be highly helpful for case managers and those working with the communities.

You said “ongoing”. Do you have a frame of reference in your mind for how frequently...? Would a part of that include the beginning training, when somebody is hired in these positions?

[Todd Ross]

Yes, we have been working with Veterans Affairs Canada to do some training. We did a virtual training exercise just recently—I believe it was earlier this year—with a few hundred staff from across the country. As people come on board to Veterans Affairs Canada, there should be minimum training. There should never be a case where a purge survivor goes to present, whether it be in a VAC office or to a case manager, and they have to explain to the case manager what the purge was.

There should be a basic level of understanding, particularly with all case managers, and anyone within the leadership authority within Veterans Affairs should have an understanding. There also should be an understanding of the issues that affect individuals who were part of the purge. That should be ongoing.

With the number of case managers we have seen with turnover, it has been difficult, which is why I made the other suggestion of having dedicated case managers who are subject matter experts work directly with LGBT veterans.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I really appreciate the idea of matching. I think that's really important. For all veterans, it is definitely a challenge when they're having to re-explain their trauma and the impact it has on them. To add this other level onto it is just unacceptable.

For my next question, you talked about creating safe spaces. You also talked about the website, I believe. I'm wondering if you have any recommendations for us on how to make a tool like the website be more safe for the community.

[Todd Ross]

Yes, absolutely. Thank you.

Very easily there could be an identifier on the website that says it is a safe space for 2SLGBQ+ veterans. It would be very easy to have a little button, but there also needs to be inclusion throughout the website. We've seen an increase on the VAC website. My profile is on there now. It needs to be normalized that it isn't for pride month that we're going to put up a profile.

Very easily, identify the website with a safe space sticker.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I appreciate that. It makes me think of a research project review that I went to that talked about how many people from the LGBTQ2+ community are going back in the closet as they age when they go into seniors facilities. I think that all of this contributes to broadening that dialogue and making sure that spaces are safer.

For the last question, I want to come to both of you on this one for your opinion and feedback.

I think this is really important. We heard about trauma and the difference between trauma from your service and trauma due to your service. I work with a lot of veterans who really struggle with accessing their My VAC Account. They struggle because they have challenges. They could have post traumatic stress disorder. They could be too much in disarray to even be able to sit down and do that work. We have huge challenges with them being able to have a caregiver or somebody who is their main person be able to access the information, put the information in and help get the services they need. I don't always know that people understand that if there's a high rate of trauma, bringing them to a place where they can actually even have a conversation can be a challenge.

I'm wondering if you can talk, from both of your perspectives, about how we can make services more accessible for people who desperately need it and the caregivers who love them.

[Oliver Thorne]

Absolutely. The million-dollar question is how we make these services more accessible.

In the first place, we should reduce in any way we can the paperwork barrier between an individual putting their hand up and then sitting down with a counsellor, for instance. Veterans Affairs has recently announced that they will automatically approve certain services at the time of application. From our perspective, that's a fantastic announcement and progress.

For individuals who have trouble processing their application against talking through their experience and getting that down on paper, we've often worked with the service officers with the Royal Canadian Legion so that somebody who has received VAC training is able to act on behalf of an individual who is applying to Veterans Affairs. Something like that is incredibly helpful, but again it depends on access and comfort with that organization, as Mr. Ross identified.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much, Mr. Thorne and Ms. Blaney.

Now let's start with the last round of questions. We have about four MPs who are going to intervene.

I take the opportunity to welcome MP Alex Ruff. I turn the floor to him for five minutes, please.

[Alex Ruff, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

Thanks, Chair. It's great to be back at Veterans Affairs. I started my political career here on this committee.

I know Mr. Ross may not be aware, but I have 25 years in uniform, so I am well versed.

I was going to ask you a direct question, Mr. Ross, but MP Blaney actually beat me to the punch. I just want to thank you for your advocacy for the 2SLGBTQ community and thank you for your service.

Things have got better, but as you say, it's not there yet. One of my best friends is still serving in the military as a senior officer who is openly gay, and one of my best soldiers I had in my battalion was not only indigenous but he was gay as well.

You're always welcome at the Tara Legion, Branch 383 in my home town of Tara. The Legion there will welcome anybody, whoever has served and anybody just in general.

Mr. Thorne, I just want to thank you again for your advocacy not only for veterans but also for everything you've been doing on the Afghan file as well. However, those four recommendations that you have provided here are vital. They're four of the best recommendations I've heard: cultural competence, the need for having veterans in VAC and understanding not only whether they're marginal communities but also just their situation itself; that split between injuries caused by CAF or caused by the institution; the need to have uniquely tailored service offerings.... But what my question wants to focus on, because this is what I'm still concerned about even with the testimony we just heard from the previous panel, is the importance of having quick access. Despite the improvements that are being made in VAC, I am still hearing veterans say it's taken 20 to 30 months to get resolution of their files.

Can you just expand on the importance and the trauma, especially for those dealing with PTSD and mental health challenges too, of veterans not getting the help they need quickly?

[Oliver Thorne]

Absolutely.

Anecdotally, I can say that we get a lot of our emails at 2 o'clock in the morning from people expressing their interest in the program. That is when individuals often reach out, and we've talked about military culture. We've talked about that element of hyper-masculinity. The military has a Darwinian nature. It has a culture that's built around strength and rooting out weakness, and that's understandable, given its aims, but the result then is a real resistance to help-seeking because of the fear of being perceived as weak.

The result is that individuals are often reaching out to services like ours to request help when they are very close or at a point of crisis. Those emails we get at 2 o'clock in the morning say, I've just lost my second job in six months, my wife is thinking about leaving me, and I'm thinking now I need to seek some help. That's the point at which they are asking, and so it is crucial that there be a minimum number of barriers between that email and somebody sitting down in some type of service just because they are already at that crisis point, and if instead of a message back that says, “Yes, let's talk, we can help you”, they get a stack of paperwork, they are going to disengage from that process of help-seeking. It is vitally important.

I understand that Veterans Affairs obviously has their processes they need to go through to process people to set up services. This is where I feel external service providers like ours, like Mr. Ross's, are able to help. Of the people who seek our services, 50% do not have a claim with Veterans Affairs at all. That means we are engaging with a segment of the veteran population that, for whatever reason, is resistant to engaging with Veterans Affairs. So that is the role we can play as external service providers, and in doing that, when we bring veterans into our program, which we try to make highly accessible and quickly available....

When they go through that process—and often working through our program is the first type of support they've ever received—and as we're working through some of those initial challenges, we're then encouraging them to seek other services, to seek out Veterans Affairs even though it may be an onerous process.

That's where I feel we can provide some assistance.

[Alex Ruff, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

Thanks so much for that, Mr. Thorne.

Mr. Ross, I have just a quick question. I'll give you a chance to further expand on the importance of having less turnover at VAC among the case managers and then having, as MP Blaney asked about, people who can actually identify with the veterans who are reaching out.

[Todd Ross]

Again, with the traumatic experience of LGBT purge survivors specifically and then going to VAC and having to go to get paperwork filled out, going through the process, often doing this alone can be very daunting and, as Oliver pointed out, people do just disengage. They walk away.

Having those people understand at the beginning and who able to work with you is very important.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Ross, and thank you, Mr. Ruff, for your intervention.

I invite Mr. Churence Rogers for five minutes.

I know you're going to split your time with MP Valdez. Please open your mike.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair; and indeed, I am sharing with Ms. Valdez.

I welcome our guest who has been with us today. I find the testimony and some of the examples you're providing fascinating.

Mr. Thorne, you mentioned geography, gender and language, differences in service delivery impacted by culture, institutional impacts, services tailored to individuals and professional services. These are some of the items and terms you referenced.

Can you tell us about the work of your organization, like the example you just gave, how you help veterans and, more importantly, the relationship you and your organization have with Veterans Affairs Canada?

Thank you.

[Oliver Thorne]

Absolutely.

For the past 20 year, up until the start of COVID, we delivered something called the veterans transition program. This is a 10-day group-based counselling program. It's delivered in a retreat format and it's built around the concept of soldiers helping soldiers.

Something that the founders of our program discovered very early on was that the needs and experiences of veterans and soldiers were often not well served by the existing psychological services that were out there in the community. They were largely undertaken and run by civilian counsellors, psychologists who did not have an understanding of military experience and military culture, so there was a disconnect between the client and the service provider.

Our approach is to bring veterans together who understand one another's experience and we have a curriculum that is guided by professional psychologists who've undergone special training with us to understand military experience and culture. However, the group that we're delivering to is also facilitated by two returning graduates, veterans who have been through the program and come back to facilitate as peer supporters. They act as the bridge between the psychologists, who are not always but usually civilians, and the military participants in the program. They help us build trust. They help us understand the culture, the language and the experience so that we can build cohesion in the group and start the work therapeutically and in terms of helping their transition.

That's the program we deliver. We have modified it due to COVID. Obviously, we've incorporated a single-phased delivery and we incorporate social distancing and PPE, but we have continued to deliver throughout COVID.

That's a rundown on our program.

I'm sorry. I know there was a second component to your question, but I've forgotten what that was.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

What kind of relationship do you and your organization have with Veterans Affairs Canada?

[Oliver Thorne]

We're a registered service provider. Essentially what that means is for clients who attend our program, who are clients of Veterans Affairs and who have a particular type of claim that is eligible to cover our program, Veterans Affairs pays for the cost of their attendance. They pay us on a per-client basis for eligible veterans who attend our program.

Again, that makes up about 15% of the veterans who attend our program. For the remaining 85%, at this moment we raise the funds as a charity to deliver the program to them at no cost. Any veteran who attends is always delivered the service entirely free of charge, but for those who are eligible, we receive a per-client payment from Veterans Affairs.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Thank you so much.

Ms. Valdez.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Ms. Valdez, you have almost one minute. Please go ahead.

[Rechie Valdez, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

I don't have much time. I really appreciate you both so much. I'm a survivor of trauma, so everything you're saying and sharing is very important.

Very quickly around your experience, Mr. Ross, you know the transition period for our veterans is so critical. What do you think is the key recommendation to really help our veterans during that transitional time?

[Todd Ross]

It needs to start before the veterans are leaving service. There needs to be a phase from serving into Veterans Affairs. There needs to be a bridge between the two that would be beneficial. Particularly if the veteran is leaving for a medical discharge of some sort, it's critical that they get into VAC as soon as possible and that it's as easy as possible for them to receive those services.

[Rechie Valdez, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you so much.

I guess I don't have much time left.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Yes, it's over. Thank you, MP Valdez.

Now we have two other interventions for two and a half minutes each. I invite Mr. Luc Desilets to start, please.