Veterans Affairs Committee on March 4th, 2022

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, I'd like to begin by thanking and congratulating the Department of Veterans Affairs for responding to my request of February 1 last by providing the figures we've unfortunately been requesting for a long time. We could come back to that later.

We have the figures in hand. A few years ago, the department didn't have enough bilingual adjudicators, and they couldn't decide cases in French. It took more than 16 weeks, and we hear several weeks more. Francophone veterans had very long waits, really long waits. As a result of the lack of bilingual staff, in 2018, francophones had to wait an average of 33 weeks more than anglophone veterans for decisions to be made in their cases.

I understood the situation pretty quickly. Since I was sitting as a member of the committee and, obviously, as our veterans affairs critic, you could say that wasn't too hard to grasp from the very first months.

Nearly all the Quebec veterans I spoke to had waited two years for a decision on their disability benefit applications. That was obviously unacceptable and unfair. I constantly hammered away at the department and at you too, Mr. Harris. You must have found me irritating and annoying, but that's life, and it's my job.

Now I am pleased to see the actual result. It puts me in a good mood, despite this minor cold. I'm optimistic for the future, but I'm obviously concerned when I see the fluctuations that have occurred in processing the backlog over the past 50 years or so.

There was a 33‑week discrepancy in 2018 and a 16‑week difference in 2019. The gap fell to 8 weeks in 2021, and, in January and February 2022, the difference was 0.6 week. So hats off mainly to the francophone team from Montreal and to your 7 bilingual teams across Quebec and Canada. They've done a good job, and I congratulate them on it. My key question is this: how will you maintain that standard over time?

That question's for either Ms. Meunier or Mr. Harris.

How do you intend to maintain the virtually equal processing times for applications from anglophones and francophones for the rest of this year and next year?

[Steven Harris, Assistant Deputy Minister, Service Delivery Branch, Department of Veterans Affairs]

Thank you very much for your question, Mr. Desilets.

I can assure the committee that I have never found Mr. Desilets' constant demands regarding delays in the processing of French-language applications annoying.

As he noted, it's true the situation was absolutely unacceptable. I can tell you that the resources we've just received as a result of extended employee assignments will help us ensure that the difference between processing times for English and French applications is truly eliminated.

Ms. Meunier discussed that a little earlier; we're in the process of making other improvements to the process and other things. I believe the team we have in place will help.

In addition, in response to the question a committee member asked earlier, we definitely need to hire francophone staff, not just bilingual staff, given how complicated it is to interpret French files, particularly the medical terms, for example.

We've definitely acknowledged that we can't rely solely on bilingual people. We need nurses and other people who make the decisions and are truly proficient in French and comfortable with the medical terms.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Harris.

I don't know whether you wish to add anything, Ms. Meunier.

[Amy Meunier]

In addition to what my colleague mentioned, what we're doing over the next short while is ensuring that we are accurately tracking the requirements for French staff members. For example, the number of applications that come in from francophones is one number, but we also have a significant number of applications from anglophones. Depending on where they served over their military careers, half of their service health records could comport French language material.

We were not capturing the workload required or the workload associated with that. We are now going to start tracking that. That will better position us to ensure we are always ahead and beyond the French needs, so that we are always stronger than what is coming in the door.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

That's good, thank you.

Ms. Meunier, you mentioned the nearly $140 million investment. However, we're talking about temporary jobs. That troubles me personally because the problem could reoccur.

Why temporary jobs? If the people work 50% of the time, why not cut the number of employees in half and hire them on a full-time basis. It strikes me that would be more efficient.

That's the first part of my question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Pardon me, Mr. Desilets, but your speaking time is up.

You will have a chance to ask your question in the second round.

I'd like to invite MP Rachel Blaney to ask questions for six minutes, please.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, I always appreciate your leadership and your signs keeping us on track. I just want to commend you for that again.

I want to thank the witnesses for being here.

I'm going to start first with a statement, and then I'll move on to a question.

I just want to say, when we're talking about backlogs, I am still very concerned. I don't think these are being addressed the way they should be. I think the fact that these are still temporary workers and not permanent workers should be concerning to all of us.

Just recently I was cc'd in an email to the minister discussing a veteran who heard from VAC that his file had not even been given to an adjudicator after 32 weeks of waiting. He was still in the queue. He was told that he could wait up to another 18 months to even have it adjudicated, and that if he was dying it could be sped up. I want to put that on the record, because I don't believe that veterans are being treated fairly. I don't trust the numbers you're giving me. I'm just telling you this straight up, because I'm hearing too many of these kinds of stories.

My first question is about the consultation process with veterans through Let's Talk Veterans. I'm just wondering if we could hear a little bit about the specific changes that were referred to and if we could have an example of what those changes are.

[Amy Meunier]

As I mentioned, there were about 853 participants in that survey, and we realized a few things through that. A lot of the questions were predominantly related to what their experience was on their end and where the biggest obstacles and challenges were.

What was a surprise to us is that not as many veterans as we thought were aware of My VAC Account, which is a faster way to apply for disability benefits. We are now going to really ramp up our information and communication related to applying for that account.

As I'm sure you've heard in your business, medical questionnaires and working with health professionals who are treating can be a bit of a challenge. We use the term “diagnosis” regularly, but that actually means a confirmed diagnosis from a medical professional, and while that may seem clear, we now know that's not crystal clear.

Some of the changes we'll be making are to use more plain language, user-friendly material upfront, working more closely with our intake staff where veterans can have a dialogue to make sure they better understand what's required.

More importantly, veterans were loud and clear: They want to know when their application is complete. They gave us some examples of time frames they thought would be acceptable to advise them if their application was complete. We're working with My VAC Account partners within Veterans Affairs Canada to improve what a veteran would see in their application by having more granularity about the stage and what's happening with their application at that point in time.

Those would be a few examples that I would offer.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

When you said that about 1,000 veterans participated in the consultations, I was wondering if we could get something to the committee that addresses the demographic breakdown of the participants, for example, how many men, how many women, their geographical location and age. Of course, we're also talking here specifically today about French-speaking veterans and the services they receive, and also the LGBT2Q+ community. If that could be included in it as well, that would be helpful.

I guess the other part of my question is whether, based on this information, there were any specific changes to better serve the LGBTQ community or the French community of veterans who are receiving services. If it didn't come through this, what is the process of making sure that services are more friendly and consistent for those particular stakeholder groups?

[Amy Meunier]

Thank you.

I have some demographics here, but as part of the formal process of Let's Talk Veterans, we will be publishing the fulsome report with all of those demographics. Just quickly, I would highlight 76% were males, 21% were females, 84% were English and 16% were French. That's fairly representative of the applications we do see.

As for how we better provide support and work better with different cohorts or segments of our veteran population, it's through a variety of ways: through surveys and consultations, like we just did, and direct feedback from veterans. But one example I would offer is that we don't actually ask you on the application form what your sexual orientation or preferences are. But through our experience with the Purge class action, we worked very closely with many survivors of that, and through that process we gleaned quite a bit about what we could change to be a much more effective trauma-informed organization. We have already implemented trauma-informed training for all of our decision-makers and frontline staff, and that will continue.

That would be a good example of some of the things we are already doing, following feedback from our veterans directly.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I would just close by saying that one of the challenges we've heard from numerous veterans is that the My VAC Account can only be accessed by themselves and they cannot assign ability to do that to a caregiver to help them access it, which can result a huge challenge for them. Maybe I'll come back to this in my next round, but how can we make that more accessible, because that is closing doors?

Thank you so much, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much, Ms. Blaney.

Thank you for your compliments. I'm very pleased to hear them.

Thanks to you as well, Ms. Meunier.

Let's continue. We're going to go to questions for five minutes.

I'd like to invite the honourable MP, Anna Roberts, for five minutes, please.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, I want to thank you for your service. It is very commendable.

Here's my question—and being a newbie I might be out of line, but I want to ask something. You said that you've been there for two years, and the work sounds amazing, but what experiences have you drawn to ensure that moving forward we don't incur the backlog that we have had in the past?

[Amy Meunier]

That's a great question.

It would be being able to better anticipate the types of applications that are coming forward, and the volume of applications, understanding the cause and effect of new programs coming into place, and the communication around that, and to be better prepared for that because when there is an increase or some strong publicity about new programs, we do see a surge. That would be one takeaway—that we anticipate that a little more effectively.

I've also realized over the last two years that on the surface it may appear that two claims look exactly the same, but the reality is that individuals' situations, circumstances and health parameters and criteria are very different when you dig into a file and you get into it. Also, it would be about ensuring we have access to up-to-date medical information and modern tools to make it easier for our decision-makers to connect injuries to services more consistently.

Those would be two things I would say that would position us very well going forward. That's what we're doing today, and that's why I feel that way, because it's working now. I would hope to continue to build.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

You mentioned the medical records. Is there not a database where they could be accessed immediately, or is there a time lapse? I don't understand your point about the medical records. Maybe you could explain that to me.

[Amy Meunier]

Sure.

When someone serves in the Canadian Armed Forces or the RCMP, throughout their career there are service records related to where they served—overseas or across Canada—as well as all of the health information associated with their time. It is held by the Canadian Armed Forces, but after a certain period of time, I think it's two years, it's moved over to Library and Archives Canada. When someone applies to Veterans Affairs Canada, we go to either of those organizations or the RCMP to receive a copy of that information to assist us in making the decision. We have formal processes with those organizations. Recently, we are working with the Canadian Armed Forces. We have 50 decision-makers who have direct access to the Canadian Forces health information system.

That direct access is just getting going. We're working through the kinks, trial and error. But that would be much faster and over time it will become a much more effective way for us to go in and target the information that we're looking for in real time.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

I want to ask as well if this pandemic has created issues with the backlog. If so, what plans are in place?

I know I've heard about the mental health issue from some of my constituents who are veterans. How can we get back to prepandemic levels and ensure that this doesn't happen again?

[Amy Meunier]

The pandemic has offered some opportunities and some challenges. The challenges would, I think, be fairly evident. Most of us have experienced them. How do you get people working remotely? How do you hire 350 people when they cannot come into an office? How do you train 350 people? We got past that, and they are working much more effectively now.

The opportunities are that our population and the groups from where we can hire have expanded, particularly if we're looking at the francophone population. Because we were no longer stuck with bricks and mortar, our ability to hire in more remote regions has become an opportunity for us. I would say that the pandemic has offered some challenges that we were able to overcome and some opportunities that we will carry forward with us into the future. We have much more effective training that can be delivered virtually at a self-paced....

I think my time is running out. I would close by saying that I think it's been more of an opportunity, and we're really starting to see the effects of that now.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Thank you. So—

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Excuse me, Ms. Roberts. I'm sorry but you're time is over.

Now I invite the honourable MP Sean Casey for five minutes, please.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Roberts was asking such excellent questions and you were giving such a thorough answer that I'm going to get you to continue in that vein.

I, too, am quite interested in the impact of COVID-19 on your efforts within Veterans Affairs Canada.

Mr. Harris and Ms. Meunier, it's good to see you both again. It's been a long time since I've seen you, Ms. Meunier. I see Mr. Harris a little more frequently. Welcome to the committee. It's really a pleasure and an honour for me to be able to interact with you in this way from my basement a few blocks away from where you are.

With COVID-19, I can just imagine the difficulty of hiring, onboarding and making productive a new employee, who is faced with a mountain of paper, either real or electronic, and a major challenge. I know you touched upon it, but please take a minute to elaborate a little more. Then I have a couple of other areas I want to talk to you about.

[Amy Meunier]

Traditionally, when hiring new employees, the onboarding or training was face to face, elbow to elbow. When the pandemic occurred, of course that was not possible. Within a very short period of time, we partnered with a local college to help us develop virtual modules intended for adult learning. We were able to produce 80 learning modules that allowed us to onboard those teams and get them training faster than we ever had before. There were some kinks, of course, and we've learned through that process and adjusted and developed from that point forward.

At the beginning we noticed some difficulty, in that when you are training new folks and doing quality assurance, you are pulling from your experienced decision-makers to help, or sort of buddy up, with a new a person. Through that, again, the way we work and our training continue to evolve. In the end, we've built a very solid model where staff can feel comfortable in a virtual environment reaching out to solicit advice and support.

We're quite proud of what we've been able to do. We are much more disciplined and much more consistent in our work. Those are two things that absolutely have to stay in order to see consistency in our service standard going forward.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you.

I was first named to this committee after the 2011 election. You will undoubtedly recall that in the years 2011 to 2015, there were pretty deep cuts to the civil service generally and to Veterans Affairs Canada particularly, including the closing of district offices. What impact did that have?

Let me just go one step further. Now I hear you talking about the complexities involved in cases. Back then, the argument was that veterans were dying off and that there were no longer traditional veterans; therefore, there was less need for such manpower within Veterans Affairs.

I hear you telling a vastly different story today. I'd be interested in your comments on the impact of those cuts, what was required to rebuild and, more specifically, the district offices.

[Steven Harris]

Maybe I can offer Amy a break and answer that on her behalf.

There were certainly some changes with respect to the HR complement at Veterans Affairs over that period. As you noted, there was an expectation that we would have a reduction in clients as we were moving forward. As Amy noted a little earlier in the message here, we've seen a significant increase in the number of people coming forward. That's by virtue of additional new programs, a broader suite of programs that are available, and there are still challenges, but they help people transition more successfully. We've been able to reopen offices and make sure that there are offices in local communities, to be able to help veterans in their communities by making sure that those offices are open and staffed appropriately.

The staff that we have now, who have been added over the course of the last little while, have helped us significantly. Amy spoke about the challenge of hiring in the pandemic. Part of the optimism we have here in responding to some of the questions from earlier is that we actually have all these people onboard and trained. We needed to recruit them first, at the outset two years ago, and then train them during the pandemic. Now we have them onboard, trained and ready to go. They're already at the starting line of the additional two years that have been provided here, and are running. That gives a lot of optimism for the team and for our ability to continue to bring down the numbers in backlog situations.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

That's great stuff. Thanks to you both.