Veterans Affairs Committee on March 4th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Mr. Thorne.

Thank you for your address and your comments.

As you know, we have interpretation services.

I would now like to move on to the round of questions. I'd like to remind members that for this meeting, we will have two rounds of questions, one of six minutes per member and the other for two and a half and five minutes respectively.

So without further ado, I'd like to ask the first vice-chair, Mr. Frank Caputo, to ask his questions for six minutes. I would ask him to say whether the question is for Mr. Ross or Mr. Thornton.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Ross, we have not had the pleasure of meeting in person. I do hope we can meet face to face in the future because what you described in your opening statement really needs to be shared and I'd like to hear it in person. I think it goes without saying, but thank you for your service and for all you have done.

Mr. Thorne, it's wonderful to see you again. I recall that you're not a veteran, but you are doing wonderful work. Thank you for that.

Mr. Ross, I'm wondering if you could please tell the committee how the experience of 2SLGBTQ+ clients perhaps changes during and after service?

[Todd Ross]

I'm sorry. To clarify, do you mean how their experience changes with VAC before and after service?

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Sorry, I didn't word that question well. What sort of barriers might a person experience during service and then what sort of barriers might a person experience after service?

[Todd Ross]

Absolutely. I'll remind you that I was discharged in 1990, so it's been a little while since I've been in military service.

Challenges still exist within the Canadian Armed Forces for 2SLGBQ+ people. For example, we have been looking at the chaplain service where we know homophobia still exists. It is problematic, particularly when a person may be coming out as a serving member and they go to their chaplain and are told that they should deny who they are. I had a chance to speak to the chaplain general about this. They are looking to change and they've directed the chaplains that homophobia is not acceptable. However, it still exists within some of those organizations.

Speaking specifically from the naval tradition, the experience on ships now can be very welcoming. I know serving members who are open and proud and are having great experiences. I don't know throughout. I know anecdotally that there are still challenges within the armed forces where individuals are experiencing homophobia and transphobia.

Once released, historically the challenge has been what we refer to it as two closets. When you're serving, you would be in the closet and not open about being gay. Once you were released and in the gay community, you would not be open about having been in the military because in many areas within the gay community, it's frowned upon to have served in the military or any police service.

There are challenges when we're in uniform. There are challenges when we get out of uniform.

Once we're out, there have not been very many welcoming spaces for veterans. I'm still reluctant to go into a Legion today because I don't know if that's a safe space. I don't know how I'm going to be reacted to by Legion members. This is an experience we have seen working with various Legions across the country. Some are very good, but isolated Legions still have issues with membership being homophobic or transphobic. It retraumatizes the LGBT veterans when they're working with these Legions.

I don't know if I've completely answered your question. There are challenges both within and without. As LGBT people, we just kind of have to work our way through and hope that we're able to minimize the challenges for future generations.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you.

I can say I'd be very proud to accompany you to anywhere, including a Legion. Thank you for all that you've said and that you do.

Given your direct contact with 2SLGBQ+ veterans, are you able to comment about what they generally tell you about service delivery from Veterans Affairs Canada?

[Todd Ross]

Recently, the experience has been very good.

We have had challenges with some individuals, such as the individual I mentioned who's dealing with case managers. We've had challenges with others who are 65 plus, who have been denied services. With some, we've been able to address that. Periodically we run into challenges with individual veterans.

Overall, we're seeing much better service than we were four years ago. There has been a much more improved response from Veterans Affairs, but we're still dealing with issues.

We have volunteers who go out and help these veterans to interact directly with Veterans Affairs to try to sort through the challenges. We elevate it to leadership at Veterans Affairs when we need to.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

If I'm understanding you correctly, the issue with the case manager is generally one of rapport, and that rapport is really destroyed when there's a turnover, because you have to just start over again. Is that correct?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Mr. Caputo, I'm sorry. The time is over. I have to go to the next MP.

I invite MP Darrell Samson for six minutes, please.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you both very much for your presentations.

Mr. Ross, I'll start off, of course, by saying thank you for your service.

I, too, was in the House of Commons—I don't know if you were at that time—for the apology. Just seeing the people there made me proud to be a Canadian. It was very touching. When you mentioned it, it touched me closely again because it was a very important turning point and something that had to be done. I was so proud that our government and all parliamentarians were able to support that. I was very happy.

I'm also thinking about you being indigenous and LGBTQ. It's almost like a double-barrelled challenge for a marginalized individual. That too makes it even more complicated, so I thank you for sharing some of the feedback that you were able to share.

I have a couple of quick questions for you.

You made reference to some veterans over age 65 not qualifying for benefits. Can you expand on that quickly?

[Todd Ross]

Yes, of course. Thank you.

I was in the House that day. It was a very emotional day, and still is.

My understanding is that VAC ages out veterans at 65. Once you're 65, the policy is that you can receive benefits through other government services, so VAC services are no longer required. There have been exceptions made.

That deals with rehabilitation and with income support. For example, for most people who were purge survivors, when evaluated, we look at getting mental health supports through VAC. As well, there is an additional income top-up once you've qualified through purge survivors. My understanding is that if you're 65 and over, the income support is not considered essential, because you have income support from the government.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Thorne, I have just a very quick question.

You made reference to injury in service versus injury caused by service. Would you like to expand on that, please?

[Oliver Thorne]

Yes, absolutely.

This was actually a concept that was discussed at one of the centres of excellence role groups. I'd love to take credit for it, but it's not my term or phrase; another colleague came up with it.

There is a difference with an injury caused by the institution. For example, we can look at military sexual trauma, which, in our women's programs, is typically the central topic discussed when people are talking about their barrier to transition and their traumatic injuries. Often, those injuries, those traumas, have been caused and perpetrated by individuals who are within the organization and are in a position of higher rank or oversight.

The way that this traumatic injury manifests results in different effects for the individual. Again, I'm talking very much from the perspective of mental health injuries, trauma, and difficulties to transition—that's our focus.

The injury that that causes can truly fracture somebody's sense of trust and ability to trust in institutions like the Canadian forces and the government. That then directly results in how a traumatic injury manifests itself, the types of symptoms they display and also how we might help somebody through that. Also, as I mentioned, it's about how they seek help.

Mr. Ross talked about this earlier, where individuals might be very leery or reticent about reaching out to an organization like Veterans Affairs or reaching out to the government to their chain of command, to DND, to ask for assistance, because that is the institution that caused their injury.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

That's good. Thank you. I don't want to take too much time.

They came back to me quickly, so I'll give up the rest of my time so we have more time for others.

Thank you.

[Oliver Thorne]

No problem.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much, Mr. Samson.

We'll now go to Mr. Luc Desilets for six minutes, please.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

When the Ombudsman published "Meeting Expectations: Timely and Transparent Decisions for Canada’s Ill and Injured Veterans", a report that I would call incendiary, the gap between the number of francophones and anglophones became clear in the recruitment problems. However, the gap between men and women was less obvious, and is even less so now.

Nevertheless, I found your testimony very moving and distressing. In the report, there were no references to the LGBTQ2+ community or to First Nations, which rather puts the whole effort in a negative light.

My question may be somewhat odd, but do you not have the impression that Veterans Affairs Canada caused more harm to the LGBTQ2+ community than to women veterans?

[Todd Ross]

Sorry, is that for me?

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Yes. Sorry. I forgot to mention that my question was for you.

[Todd Ross]

Thank you.

I don't know the experience of women in the armed forces. I don't think that I can say whether or not one has been more or less harmed.

I do know that a high number of LGBT purge survivors went through the class action lawsuit, and a very high number were women. That points to a couple of things. One is that the women's experience has been more recent. Early on in the LGBT purge it was men who were targeted. As women came into the forces, from what I see, women were probably targeted more than men through the LGBT purge.

Beyond that, I know that challenges exist within the forces for LGBT people, for women, and for first nation, Inuit and Métis people.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Mr. Ross, would it be correct to say that it would be impossible to quantify all of that?

[Todd Ross]

No, sir.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Okay.

The purge of LGBTQ personnel by National Defence over a 40-year period is a rather bleak part of this country's history. Nevertheless, there was a class action suit that led to $145 million being awarded to compensate victims.

Are you satisfied with this settlement? Was this amount sufficient? Was it a good settlement?

[Todd Ross]

Again, it's difficult to put a price amount on the harm that was done to individuals. I think that the amount ended up being some comfort to those who had their lives destroyed, but it certainly cannot erase the years of trauma and anguish that resulted from the LGBT purge. It also does not recognize those who have passed away.

We were able to create the LGBT purge fund with, I believe, $24 million—around there—going towards the memorialization and reconciliation efforts. I believe that it was a significant amount. I believe it was a somewhat respectable amount for people to receive but, again, people's lives were destroyed, and it's very difficult to put a price on that.

That said, we have been able to see some great work as a result of the $145 million that was awarded through the class action.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Mr. Ross, with the highly toxic male culture that is pervasive at National Defence, do you get the impression that there has been some progress, or that there is ongoing discrimination against LGBTQ2+ personnel?