Evidence of meeting #69 for Veterans Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was competition.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Renée Daoust  Founding Partner, Architect, Urbanist, Team Daoust
Luca Fortin  Artist and Architect, Team Daoust
Jean-Pierre Chupin  Full Professor, Université de Montréal, Canada Research Chair in Architecture, Competitions and Mediations of Excellence
Francyne Lord  Public Art Consultant, As an Individual
François Le Moine  Lawyer, As an Individual
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Alexandre (Sacha) Vassiliev
Nadine Huggins  Chief Human Resources Officer, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Jennifer Ebert  Assistant Commissioner, Commanding Officer, B Division, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Joanne Rigon  Executive Director, Executive Liaison Officer, National Compensation Services, Human Resources, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
DeAnna Hill  Assistant Commissioner, Commanding Officer, J Division, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

November 7th, 2023 / 4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 69 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

For the first hour, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Thursday, March 9, 2023, the committee is resuming its study of the national monument to Canada's mission in Afghanistan.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely by using the Zoom application.

Although the room is equipped with a sound system that performs well, it is possible that audio feedback will occur, which can be extremely harmful to the interpreters and cause serious hearing injuries. So I would ask all the witnesses and committee members to avoid putting their earpieces too close to the mike, which can cause interference, which in turn can hurt our interpreters. So you must pay close attention.

As a reminder, all comments should be addressed through the chair.

Lastly, pursuant to our routine motion, the connection tests were correctly done before the meeting.

I would like to extend a very warm welcome to our witnesses today.

Testifying as an individual, we have François Le Moine, lawyer, and Francyne Lord, public art consultant. By videoconference, we have, from the Canada Research Chair in Architecture, Competitions and Mediations of Excellence, Jean-Pierre Chupin, full professor from the Université de Montréal. From Team Daoust, we have Renée Daoust, founding partner, architect and urbanist, and Luca Fortin, artist and architect.

Allow me as well to welcome some new members who will be taking part in the meeting with us today. We have with us Mr. Boulerice, who is replacing Rachel Blaney, and Mr. Paul-Hus, who is replacing Fraser Tolmie.

I also have my cards so I can inform you when you have one minute left. When I raise the red card, it's like in soccer, you have to stop because you are time is up.

We also have opening statements, and I would like Team Daoust to speak first. Since there are two of you, you may share the first five minutes.

Ms. Daoust and Mr. Fortin, the floor is yours.

4:25 p.m.

Renée Daoust Founding Partner, Architect, Urbanist, Team Daoust

Thank you.

Good afternoon, everyone.

My name is Renée Daoust. I am an architect and urbanist and am responsible for Team Daoust, which consists of Daoust Lestage Lizotte Stecker, Luca Fortin and Louise Arbour. We are the winning team of the national monument to Canada's mission in Afghanistan competition, the team that was selected by the jury and the only one that should prevail here.

Thank you for this opportunity to finally make our voices heard and to condemn the egregious lack of ethics associated with the organization of this international-level Canadian competition. We have never witnessed a similar situation in our 35‑year career.

Today I would like to discuss an undemocratic and unfair process, one that was unjust for the veterans and civilians who took part in Canada's mission in Afghanistan. How ironic it is that the government has involved all those military members who were mobilized and sent to defend and establish democracy in Afghanistan in the worst undemocratic process in the history of competitions in Canada. Although the process was a disgrace for our Canadian veterans—whom you instrumentalized by linking them to a sham survey conducted under obscure rules—those veterans were motivated by four major military values, including integrity.

The process was also unfair for the jury. Remember that four of the seven jury members, the majority, were associated with the mission in Afghanistan and its history. The voice of the Afghanistan experts was heard. It was carried by a veteran, a National Memorial Cross Mother, a former ambassador and a historian. The jury performed meticulous work, consulted the technical reports and the results of the sham survey and confirmed that our team was the winner.

You failed to act on the jury's recommendation, thus causing a major breach of contract and waste of public funds. That situation has created a dangerous precedent in the development of public art and architecture in Canada and the management of requests for proposals in general.

We are particularly confused by the way this unfair process, which undermines our democratic traditions, has been endorsed by the Department of Canadian Heritage, the Department of Veterans Affairs and the National Capital Commission. Is this ethically tainted cultural legacy really what we want to promote nationally and internationally and for future generations?

Out of respect for the memory of our veterans, on November 11, the government should make amends, abide by its own ground rules and uphold the democratic process that is fundamental to the history of competitions in Canada.

Thank you.

4:25 p.m.

Luca Fortin Artist and Architect, Team Daoust

My name is Luca Fortin. I am here as a proud member of Team Daoust, and as the voice of future generations and of an entire community in the cultural and creative sectors concerned about the value that the government attaches to our work, which represents a heritage of the future.

Allow me to reestablish some important facts. The contract documents are clear about the role of the Department of Canadian Heritage. They state that the department is responsible for the design competition and for overall management of the monument project on behalf of Veterans Affairs Canada. The Department of Canadian Heritage cannot shirk its responsibility. The survey, which under the initial rules was to be accompanied by a public consultation, was supposed to provide food for thought for the jury. That's what it did, but it was not supposed to invalidate the jury's selection.

On June 19 last, we were met barely two hours before the official announcement of the selected concept and told that we had won the competition but that the contract would be awarded to another team. We immediately expressed in writing, and reiterated on three occasions, our fervent disagreement with that unfair and unreasonable decision.

We also sought meetings with the two ministers, but without success. On September 15, we sent a letter to the Prime Minister requesting that his government correct its error and act on the jury's decision. We received only an acknowledgement of receipt.

Given this state of affairs, and considering the importance of this matter, we mobilized the key players concerned by this dangerous precedent. We are not just the voice of a team; we also convey the indignation of more than 2,000 stakeholders associated to various degrees with the issue of public art, design and architecture competitions in Canada. Universities across the country have condemned your undemocratic process, artists have submitted a petition, and many letters have also been sent to the ministers concerned.

In closing, the Department of Canadian Heritage must accept its full responsibility in this matter, abide by its own rules and so honour the values that Canada holds dear: respect for democracy, respect for persons, integrity and excellence. While there is still time, the government must prevent the national monument to Canada's mission in Afghanistan from being forever tainted by one of the greatest, if not the greatest, controversies in the history of our country's competitions.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

Thanks to both representatives of Team Daoust.

I would now like to invite Jean-Pierre Chupin to take the floor for five minutes.

4:30 p.m.

Jean-Pierre Chupin Full Professor, Université de Montréal, Canada Research Chair in Architecture, Competitions and Mediations of Excellence

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My name is Jean-Pierre Chupin. I am a university architect and holder of the Canada Research Chair in Architecture, Competitions and Mediations of Excellence at the Université de Montréal. I would like to point out that I am speaking as an individual based on my expertise in competition jury practices in built environment fields.

I have been documenting competitions in Canada for more than 20 years. I established the Canadian Competitions Catalogue, an online resource documenting nearly 500 competitions and more than 6,000 architectural, landscape and urban design competitions organized since Confederation. This bilingual library, which is consulted by more than 3,000 users from around the world every month, is supported by the Canada Foundation for Innovation and the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council of Canada.

I have helped establish an international research network on competitions and have published reference works in the field. I have also sat on the advisory committees for museums and governments. As an adviser to Public Services and Procurement Canada and the Parliamentary Precinct, in Ottawa, I would like to remind you today that many civic and government buildings have been subject to major competitions, starting with the Canadian Parliament in 1858. In addition to that were competitions for the legislative buildings in Ontario in 1880, British Columbia in 1892, Saskatchewan in 1907 and Manitoba in 1913, not to mention the competition for the Canadian national Vimy memorial in 1921, which was one of the symbolically most important in the history of Canada.

The government sought my expertise in the international competition for the block 2 redevelopment of Parliament Hill, which was adjudicated in 2022. The building will house your offices for the next decade. That was the best organized competition I have ever observed, with outstanding representation of Canadians in a large composite jury.

As an academic who assists in training future generations of professionals, I am extremely concerned about breaches of democratic practices that characterized the way the judgment that was reached in the competition for the monument to Canada's mission in Afghanistan was invalidated. All the studies show that, in judging the complexity of highly symbolic and civically important projects, such as public buildings and monuments, a popular vote will never be as reliable, fair or transparent a procedure as a well-organized competition procedure. A competition jury is analogous to a court jury. It represents the diverse range of public interests and works in a rigorous manner.

The jury in the national monument competition was property constituted with representative members of all interests and informed of the many issues at stake. It debated all the proposals at length and reached a consensual judgment on behalf of the collective interest. I did not observe the jury, and, in fact, very few people, not to say no one, had access to the jury's report, which moreover is highly problematical. However, the fact that the government announced to the top team that they had in fact won the competition means that the jury functioned properly.

Now if it became a normative public procurement practice to invalidate competitions or requests for qualitative proposals and to replace them with online voting, no professional would agree to allow his or her proposals to be subjected to anonymous clicks made based on a few images published on a website. You can actually draw an analogy here. What would you say if a criminal court judgment were replaced by an online vote to determine the guilty party? You'd say that was tantamount to a revolting public lynching and the denial of democratic institutions and mechanisms.

I believe I can attest to the concerns of the public procurement representatives with whom I regularly work and who are awaiting your decision to know whether design jury practices will be permanently compromised in future federal and provincial public contracts. The government has a duty to conduct itself in an exemplary manner in all its proceedings and to honour its commitments.

I also believe I can testify on behalf of future professionals and students to whom my colleagues and I speak every day and who constitute a generation of young Canadians who are highly sensitive to ethical and social justice issues. How will we explain to them that, to ensure fairness, a government can establish judging procedures that are representative of all interests and then decide to flout those rules?

In conclusion, in the situation before us, we have reached a turning point in the history of competitions in Canada. Please allow me to appeal to your judgment as parliamentarians: it is important that the jury report be distributed as widely as possible and absolutely essential that the result of this competition be determined in the name of democracy and ethics.

Thank you,

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

Thank you for your remarks, professor.

For the third and final intervention, I invite Francyne Lord and François Le Moine to take the floor. You will be able to share the next five minutes.

The floor is yours.

4:35 p.m.

Francyne Lord Public Art Consultant, As an Individual

My name is Francyne Lord, and I am an art expert. I managed the Bureau d'art public of the City of Montréal for 26 years. I am the secretary of the Commission permanente de l'art public of Culture Montréal and a member of the Comité consultatif en reconnaissance de Montréal, which is responsible for providing opinions on material commemoration projects.

I am testifying before you as an individual with the conviction that my experience can shed some light on the process under way. I have conducted more than 75 public art competitions, many of which were commemorative in nature.

Out of a concern for fairness and to prevent arbitrary choices, the City of Montreal brought in outside experts with recognized experience to select artworks. In all the years I worked there, no jury decision in any City of Montreal competition was ever, at any time, questioned by authorities, who were aware that the process and rules were founded on best practices.

Unlike an artwork destined for a museum collection, public artworks raise other issues. What added value does public art provide for an urban landscape? How does it attest to current creative work and help build a future artistic heritage.

The evaluation of a memorial project such as this one is more complex than any other public art project. Many factors are taken into consideration by the jury, which will pay particular attention, for example, to the way the artist treats the weight of memory and remains sensitive to the pain of the community concerned. In its work, however, the jury also takes into account the moment when the work enters history, since a monument always conveys the values of its time.

Does a citizen responding to a survey judge all that based on 10 lines of text and a few images. Can that citizen analyze all the considerations that have guided the jury's choice?

In conclusion, I want to draw your attention to the consequences of the decision made by the Department of Veterans Affairs to disregard the jury's recommendation. Such a decision undermines the government's credibility with regard to public art. It also leaves traces. It undermines trust in the governance of the highest institution in the country, from which we should expect exemplary practices.

Thank you.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

Thank you.

4:40 p.m.

François Le Moine Lawyer, As an Individual

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, thank you for this invitation to appear before you.

My name is François Le Moine, and I am a lawyer specializing in art law and president of the Association littéraire et artistique internationale for Canada; I teach art and cultural heritage law at the Université de Montréal, and I am co‑chair of Montreal's Commission permanente de l'art public de Culture.

I am appearing as an individual with no partisan agenda. I simply want to state, together with Jean-Pierre Chupin and Francyne Lord, first, the fact that the jury competition system is the best guarantee of high-quality public art for future generations, and, second, the reasons why the government was in fact bound by the rules that it itself had established.

I have submitted a document entitled, “Design Competition—Request for Proposals, Submission Requirements”. The competition rules state on page 10 that it is up to the jury to select the winning design, based on the combined scores of the jury and the assessments of the technical committee. It also states on page 2 of that document that the contract will be awarded to the winning team.

Under the rules of this competition, the government simply did not have the necessary leeway to award the contract to a team that had not been selected. It is the jury that makes the decision, not a minister.

If the withdrawal from Afghanistan altered the situation to the point where the competition was no longer suitable for the purpose of honouring our veterans, the only solution available to the government was to cancel the competition and organize another.

The composition of the jury has already been discussed. That composition shows that all the necessary competencies were at the table for the jury to make an informed decision. The jury also took into consideration the consultation conducted of the Department of Veterans Affairs, which had a legitimate place within the process. That is doubtless the reason why no scientific survey was organized, because that inquiry was done for advisory, not decision-making reasons.

In addition to being the party that was supposed to make the decision based on established practices and competition rules, the jury was representative of the mission and had the time to assess all the relevant factors.

Its decision was disregarded.

Thank you.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

Thank you very much, Ms. Lord and Mr. Le Moine.

We will now go to the first round of questions. Each member will have six minutes of speaking time.

I invite Pierre Paul-Hus to take the floor for the first six minutes.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, everyone.

In the national monument to Canada's mission in Afghanistan project, the selection of a team other than the winning team constitutes a dangerous precedent for major federal government procurement contracts. We're used to seeing this kind of thing, but this contract is different because it concerns the arts. Certain individuals may feel less concerned as a result of that. People often go through their daily lives without feeling that concerned about artistic design projects. Getting back to the process, however, this is becoming a major issue for the parliamentarians around this table.

My first question is for Ms. Daoust or Mr. Fortin.

I'd like to know how you felt on June 19 when you were informed that you had been selected by the jury but that the contract would unfortunately be going to another team.

4:40 p.m.

Founding Partner, Architect, Urbanist, Team Daoust

Renée Daoust

I must say I was completely surprised.

As I mentioned, in my 35‑year career, we have been involved in federal government competitions but have never seen this. We obviously felt we had been wronged. I would say we were disappointed and felt betrayed. After the fact, we really felt outraged—

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

I apologize for interrupting.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

That's the bell ringing.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

Yes, that's what I thought.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Bryan May Liberal Cambridge, ON

Excuse me, Mr. Chair. I believe the bells are ringing.

I do apologize for cutting off the witness. I just wanted to bring that to the attention of the chair.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

Just a moment. I will stop the clock.

It's true that I saw the lights flashing in the room.

I believe we are being summoned to vote in the House.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bryan May Liberal Cambridge, ON

I believe it's....

I'm sorry. I'm just getting a note here.

I believe it's a quorum call, so we might be in the clear here.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

Excuse me?

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bryan May Liberal Cambridge, ON

I believe it's a quorum call, so we might be okay.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

Okay, so now it's over.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bryan May Liberal Cambridge, ON

It looks like it has stopped.

I'm sorry. I offer my apologies.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

No, no, that's okay. We have to follow the rules in the House of Commons.

Go ahead, Ms. Daoust. I stopped the clock, and you may now continue.

4:45 p.m.

Founding Partner, Architect, Urbanist, Team Daoust

Renée Daoust

We felt disappointed, hurt and outraged that the highest authority in Canada had acted that way.

We thought it was a total injustice. We're very concerned about the federal government's willingness to discredit a democratic process. The fact remains that these are important competitions.

Mr. Paul-Hus, you said it was about public art. That's true. However, it isn't just about that. It's about public part, architecture, the awarding of mandates and the awarding of contracts. It goes further than just the framework for public art and architecture.

At the very least, we're dismayed to see the government legitimize an undemocratic process, which, in a way, constitutes deceit. We really consider that appalling.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Thank you, Ms. Daoust.

I will continue in the same vein and put my question to Mr. Chupin.

You mentioned in your statement that you had a working relationship with Public Services and Procurement Canada. Ms. Daoust just mentioned that the process involves deceit.

I'd like to hear your opinion as an expert on the process. I know you clearly explained it, but, in a nutshell, what impact does this decision have on the procurement system in Canada?