Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 28th, 2023

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Would you say, based on your experience in the RCMP, that its culture has changed?

[Jane Hall]

It has changed. It has improved, but the culture broke. I recorded it in the last chapter of my book. It's been identified as a broken culture right now, which it is, and that's for members—male and female.

It's a leadership deficit. They need an approach where there's accountability. There's been report after report from non-partisans under Conservatives and Liberals—“A Matter of Trust”, “Rebuilding the Trust”, “Conduct Becoming”, “Shattered Dreams”. It's very well known that there's a problem in the culture.

The answer is leadership and accountability. It's a matter of having a disciplined system. Work with the promotion system. Work with the education system for leadership. I can't think of the last time somebody got demoted or fired. We used to do that a long time ago. Nobody is forced to take a promotion and nobody is forced to be in a leadership position, so you have to be accountable when you're there. It's up to you.

There has to be some sort of organizational recognition that if this is happening, it's on the organization to protect the workers within that environment. They have to have some outside mechanisms. That's why our council has asked for an outside governance body. It's to make sure members have a place to go when they don't trust their own mechanisms within the force.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I have another question…

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I'm sorry Mr. Desilets, but I've stopped the clock.

I'd like to give the clerk time to show Ms. Hall how the interpretation works.

I see that it's been resolved.

Mr. Desilets, you can continue. You have a minute left.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

When your book was published, how was it received by veterans in the RCMP and the armed forces, and by their senior officers? What kinds of comments did you receive?

[Jane Hall]

That's an excellent question.

I'm sorry. It's so faint, and I have two hearing aids. One of my VAC things is a hearing injury that happened at the depot.

When it was released, Commissioner Zaccardelli resigned. Here was an unknown female—I was a corporal when I left—writing a book that's questioning whether there are some issues in an organization that is the Canadian identity. I didn't know whether somebody was going to knock on the door with a subpoena or the RCMP was going to come.

I was embraced. People were asking what the problem was, because there obviously was a problem. We were lucky enough that Commissioner Busson stepped into the breach for six months. She's a friend of mine. It was really nice to see that, and it was really wonderful to see that the rank and file of the RCMP totally supported Commissioner Busson. There had been progress. It was wonderful.

RCMP Commissioner Paulson liked my book. I saw him in a magazine and he was holding my book up, so he found some interest in it.

It's interesting that my book is used in a leadership program in Texas, but it's not used up here. An expert is somebody from out of town. I don't know.

I have not had any push-back from the RCMP.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Ms. Hall.

For the the last round of six-minute questions, I'll invite Ms. Blaney to please go ahead.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much, Chair.

I want to thank all the witnesses who served for their tremendous service.

My first questions will be for Ms. Hall.

I first of all want to say thank you so much for coming today. I really appreciate all that you've added to the discussion.

You talked earlier in your testimony about how many reports have come out telling us again and again about significant challenges. I think it was called the RCMP's “horribly broken” culture at one point. From what you've said and what we've heard, it sounds like not much has changed, unfortunately.

One thing that is very clear is we cannot expect healthy women veterans to emerge from RCMP culture when it is still so toxic and there are still big issues. The report said, “the RCMP is toxic and tolerates misogynistic and homophobic attitudes amongst its leaders and members.” We've seen so many failed attempts, and we know that this needs to change.

You've talked a bit about your recommendations. I think they're really important recommendations, but could you talk about what needs to happen immediately to make these changes happen? I know there has been some change, but what do you think is most important to make women feel more seen and to connect them? You talked about connecting them, and I've heard this from women veterans of the RCMP who had no idea they could get a hold of VAC. They had no idea that was even part of the process.

I'm also wondering, in the big complex question I just asked, whether you have any understanding, even from your time, of what the transition out is like. We know that when people transition out of the military, there are definite issues and there is a process, but I don't know that there's the same process for the RCMP.

[Jane Hall]

Thank you very much, MP Blaney, for your support on the Merlo Davidson report in question period. I really appreciate that.

I think transition is key. I think what this committee is looking at are veterans in particular. We need some sort of information at transition, but we need to start it at depot to make people aware that there is VAC.

You heard Commissioner Busson when she testified say that she didn't even know about it. She was in for 35 years and retired after 2000, so it needs to be front and centre right at the beginning. I'm told by my colleague that in the civil service they're given the transition information five years into their service and five years before they retire. It has to be reinforced all the way through.

Right now, the RCMP should start a depot. They're going to have to do all their in-service training for a period of time until that cohort from depot goes all the way through so they know what VAC is and they know how they can apply.

More importantly, we need to have some resource so they know how to fill out the form. We don't seem to have that. Part of police culture is that we don't admit when we're hurt—we're the tough ones—and that is exactly the wrong mindset to have when filling out the form. We need to have that, so proactive outreach to women who have already left is really key.

For serving members and the ones coming in, start at depot. For the ones already in, we definitely need that information given out to them in all their service training.

I do think it's a leadership issue. I don't want to leave the impression that all male Mounties are like this. I married one of those guys and we've been married for 42 years. Most members, male and female, are excellent leaders. It's just that every now and then there's one who's not, and when the organization finds it easier to bury or think they're burying that person than to identify them, that's a problem. It's not like this is a huge problem with all members in the RCMP. It's a small group, but that small group has festered and caused a problem nationally.

From my work internationally, I know it's in every police force, but that's not your responsibility because it's the Government of Canada that directed the RCMP. Because the RCMP is federal, if we can fix it, we can be world leaders on this issue. That's what my group with 22 people from around the world.... They all have the problem but don't have the answers. If we start working on the answers, we can have a made-in-Canada solution here. We can fix this in the RCMP. We can be the world leaders we were back in 1974 when we started with female Mounties.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much for that.

Recently, we heard from the RCMP's chief human resources officer, Nadine Huggins, who appeared before the committee. When I asked her about support from external sources—which for both the military and RCMP is something we really want to see—she talked about the RCMP management board.

Could you tell us a bit about the RCMP management board since its inception in 2019? Do you think it's effective and is bringing forward important things in its mandate about meaningful change for the RCMP?

[Jane Hall]

It took us several years—and we're investigators—to try to find out who was on the board and what they were doing, and to try to do outreach. We got one call last year—Ron Lewis and I—from the coordinator chair. She's a lovely woman. She advised us that they're in transition and to stay tuned.

However, as far as I can see, the problem, in our opinion, is the structure. An advisory board is not what you need. You need a governance board. You need something that will to report to Parliament and is not going to be giving advice to the RCMP.

If it could fix itself.... Sheila Fraser doesn't believe that. Linda Duxbury doesn't believe that. Mr. Brown doesn't believe that. We had our best shot after the Brown report. I watched the culture, defeated.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

That was in 2007.

[Jane Hall]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Ms. Hall, Ms. Miller and Madame Turmine.

We're going to take a five-minute break. We'll start right after that.

I will suspend the meeting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

We're reconvening the meeting now.

We are now going to begin the second round of questions.

I'd like to invite Mr. Fraser Tolmie to go ahead for five minutes, please.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for their testimonies and their service.

I'd like to start off with you, Ms. Miller. First of all, thank you for what you have shared with us. You said something that piqued my curiosity. You said you really enjoyed the tour with the navy compared to the army. Could you explain that? Could you unpack that for me? Was that because of the culture, or was it because you were able to see a bit of the world?

[Jessica Miller]

I would say it was because I was in a warm, dry space and had meals cooked for me as opposed to being in the ground, dirty, and being rained on. It's not for the culture in the navy, that's for sure, because it is a systemic problem throughout the navy. However, I found joy in what I did as a medic on board.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you for that clarification.

I'm very impressed with your compassion and willingness to serve after having been in the military, and with what you're doing with your not-for-profit organization about feeding vets.

Could you share a bit more with regard to that? Why did you start doing it? When did that really start happening, and have you seen an increase in the need for vets to supplement their income, their food baskets?

[Jessica Miller]

That has a multi-layered answer. To start, when I was retiring, I wasn't ready to retire. I did not want to be out of the forces, but I was being released. I didn't have a choice.

In 2018, my spouse and I purchased a farm in a little hamlet in Nova Scotia called Sweets Corner. I don't know why we purchased it, but we did, and I knew it needed to be a space for healing. You can't describe the feeling of connecting with nature and the healing properties of feeling the earth.

I may not be an officer at the highest ranks, nor have I served in the RCMP, but I work day in and day out with women who have been traumatized and with families facing crises who are one problem away from becoming homeless or going hungry.

The Veteran Farm Project has been incredibly successful. We have managed to find a missing part in our community of Nova Scotia, and we feel we are filling that now. This program has been going on for seven years, and we don't see ourselves stopping anytime soon.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you.

I want you to know something, as a vet and an officer. You always rely on your sergeants. I understand that's what your rank was. I notice that you have a few medals.

Ms. Hall, I notice you have a pin on your turtleneck. Could you please explain that to me?

[Jane Hall]

Yes. I'm pretty proud of that pin. It's a generational pin. My daughter is a much better Mountie than I ever thought of being, and I hope she inherits a force much better than I had.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

My understanding is that not only you've served but your husband served. Is that correct?

[Jane Hall]

That's correct. He retired as the operations officer of the advanced training academy in Chilliwack.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

I won't pry too far into your relationship, but my understanding is that you probably met while you were working together.

[Jane Hall]

We did. I was senior to him, and I outranked him as long as I was in the force. He took it well, so that shows you a lot of the men were okay with women being there.