Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 30th, 2023

[Vivienne Stewart]

Thank you for the question.

I think what our council has been considering and what we've discussed is to basically put the onus on the RCMP here. As I understand it, the RCMP contracts out the administration of these kinds of services to VAC, and VAC bills the RCMP for that administration of services annually.

It seems to me that this may be one of the things that have been kind of falling between those two entities, with the first thinking the other one will handle this because it's their members and the second thinking the former will handle it because it's their programs and services.

What we would like to see and would like to recommend is that the RCMP institute a program of educating members and informing them right from day one. At Depot in Regina, you take courses on all kinds of things, and there are information sessions on all kinds of things. This is the kind of thing that could start on day one and then be repeated at different stages of a member's career. Certainly there must be something at the end so that the transition can be an informed transition out into civilian life, and if there are benefits and programs and services available, you know what they are without having to wait 20 or 25 years to find out.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

I know you indicated that you're not a VAC client, but I expect that through your work with the women's council, you've heard lots about it. Do you have any advice for Veterans Affairs with respect to the training or experience of case managers who deal with RCMP vets?

[Vivienne Stewart]

The biggest thing I've heard is to have better awareness of trauma, of PTSD. That probably requires, as I said earlier, trauma training. I gather there are services out there that provide that, but certainly having that kind of education and training for those workers is important.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much.

This is the last round of questions, and I will invite—she's on the web—Mrs. Cathay Wagantall for five minutes, please.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you so much, Chair. I hope that I can be heard.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

You're good.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you both so much for coming and for our being able to have a significant amount of time with you today.

I want to bring up the awareness. I did miss the first part of the meeting, so if I'm repeating something, just let me know.

The RCMP chose not to move over to the new veterans charter, so you are part of the old Pension Act. I know that there are some differences in services because of that.

I know that through the Merlo report, the RCMP indicated that they were responding to the four specific areas already, and that they were a priority: harassment prevention and resolution, addressing systemic barriers, recruitment, and onboarding. I've heard a bit from you today specifically about concerns. I'm curious as well about cadet training and leadership development.

So much of what we're dealing with here is due to poor behaviours, quite honestly, within the time that you were serving, which VAC now has a responsibility to deal with. I would like to hear your perspectives, maybe first of all from the CAF perspective, of how important you think it is that if we're going to bring about a true culture change, it has to start with the youngest generation and a very intentional effort to instill those values in the treatment of one another. Could you provide a comment or two in that regard?

[Sgt Nina Charlene Usherwood]

I think that's aimed at me.

Part of the problem, to be honest, is Canadian society itself. That's where recruits are drawn from, so part of it is that we need a change in Canadian society.

There is intention, but again, part of the problem that I see in my career is that even when there's intention, there isn't time and energy put to the intention of changing the culture. That is my first thought.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Can I ask you, then, as a follow-up—

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Excuse me, Mrs. Wagantall, but the interpreters have a problem with the sound because there was no sound check when you came.

Could you raise the microphone a bit and say a few words?

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Is this better if I raise it a bit?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Yes, it's very good. Please go ahead.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you so much. Now I have to remember my train of thought.

In discussing that change needs to take place across society, in a lot of what I'm hearing today you're referring to things that have been discussed over and over again, even just in the eight years that I've been part of this committee. We do the really important report and the recommendations are created. They go to the government and they give a response, but from the committee perspective, there has never been follow-up on where we are at as CAF or as the RCMP with those recommendations.

Do you think that's something that is missing in this whole process? Do you feel like you've been here before as a witness and feel sometimes that you're on a wheel going around and around?

[Sgt Nina Charlene Usherwood]

The short answer is yes. CAF hasn't even acted on all of Madame Deschamps' recommendations, never mind what the committee does.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

It would be good for our committee to take some responsibility for that. In the meeting yesterday with Ms. Hall, it was mentioned that we have a duty as a committee to make sure these things are followed through on. That's pretty tough for a committee to do when we're dealing with a government that is responsible for those recommendations.

Would you find it helpful to mention a few recommendations that you feel have not been followed through on, and that you would encourage this committee to possibly follow up on by getting feedback or seeing where things are at, and whether we can make a difference in encouraging next steps?

[Sgt Nina Charlene Usherwood]

The more voices pointing out the fact that the government isn't doing what it's been recommended to do, the better. It helps, but we can look at a lot of reports. Frankly, a lot of the recommendations don't happen.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Yes, I hear you. That, unfortunately, is what our role is: attempting to put more light on those circumstances.

I'm sorry. I'm drawing a blank. This is to the other witness.

Do you have anything you'd like to add to my question?

[Vivienne Stewart]

Thank you for the question.

Yes, I do, quickly.

In the RCMP, there has been a culture change that they are attempting to implement now. Since 2007, we've had seven or eight reports and studies done. There have been over 100 recommendations made, but very few of them were followed up on.

I can see culture change being encouraged at the lower levels, among the people coming in, but it's up to the leadership to make that happen. Certainly in the RCMP, sometimes it's a top-down thing that forces stuff to change and actually happen.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you. I appreciate that, because that is what we have heard overall as well. A lot of the issues are at the top level, and at the same time, if you want to see that change take place, the upper level is where it needs to be enacted.

Do you have any recommendations on how we could go about seeing those changes take place in CAF and the RCMP? There is a lot of crossover.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Go quickly, please. You have a few seconds.

[Vivienne Stewart]

Thank you for the question.

That's probably something we can include in a supplementary brief to the committee. I think it's probably going to take a bit longer than the chair is willing to give me.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Ms. Stewart.

I'm juggling time, you see.

I thank you for sending any additional information to the clerk.

That said, we're not done yet.

MP Bryan May, go ahead for five minutes, please.

[Bryan May, Liberal, Cambridge, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

First and foremost, thank you both for your service, and not just while you were with the RCMP and the Canadian Armed Forces; thanks also for your continued service up to and including today, and for helping us with this study.

I have questions for both of you, but I'll start with Sergeant Usherwood.

My first thought is this: During my time on the defence file, I had the privilege of visiting a number of our bases. I got to meet with very dedicated people within the diversity advisory groups.

Were those institutions available to you when you were serving?

[Sgt Nina Charlene Usherwood]

I believe the first DAG was formed about 20 years after I joined the forces, as a result of the Employment Equity Act in 1995. I don't know when they were actually started in the forces, but I believe the Defence Aboriginal Advisory Group is probably now 22 or 23 years old.