Veterans Affairs Committee on Dec. 7th, 2023

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Okay. Again, my next questions are for whoever would like to answer them.

First, are there enough organizations that you work with to help abused women?

Second, are you able to assess, in a somewhat scientific way, let's say, the work they're supposed to be doing and the work they're actually doing?

[Linda Rizzo Michelin]

Maybe I'll start and then turn it over to my colleagues at VAC as well.

In terms of the first part of your question, you asked about partners and organizations. We do work with quite a few across the country. It's part of the resources. Is it enough? I would always say that there are always opportunities to have more across the country to make sure that we're addressing this.

It's a societal issue as well in terms of sexual misconduct and just that understanding. Yes, it is definitely within DND-CAF, but to have local organizations that can also support and address some of this is really a key piece to ensure that individuals who are coming forward are getting that access to services wherever they are.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Desilets.

Before I go to Ms. Blaney, I have a quick question for Ms. Rizzo Michelin.

If you had access to the files of women veterans who consult you in cases of sexual misconduct, would that help you to support them?

[Linda Rizzo Michelin]

That's a good question.

For us, initially as individuals come forward, I think it really is building that trust between the individual and their practitioner. Whether we have a record or not, I think that's really important in terms of the building of that relationship, of that trust. From there, I think that develops into something where the needs of that individual can then be addressed, whether it's a choice to go to different care or services or to get other types of support within our own organization.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much.

Now, let's go to Ms. Blaney for two and a half minutes, please.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much, Chair.

This time I am going to come to Dr. Courchesne.

The last time you were here to visit our committee, I asked you a question about how VAC staff, case managers, adjudicators, health care providers and veteran communities could submit complaints about the dissemination of information through VAC.

Your answer was to call 1-800 and your name. That really wasn't what I was looking for.

I'm just wondering if you could take this opportunity to maybe explain how that process actually works, so that we can make sure it's on the record.

[Dr. Cyd Courchesne]

Thank you.

There are different channels. There isn't just one channel to bring issues to light with us. I mentioned my name because I was sincere in saying that people can communicate with me. Some people do communicate with me.

Of course, we have our national 1-800 line, where people can raise issues. Clients can raise issues with their case managers, veterans service agents or through area offices at any time. Whoever they interact with.... Some people write to individuals like you to bring issues to light, and then you would bring them to the department and we would address them.

There is not just one door to come to us because we take every opportunity to improve our processes, our services and the support that we give to veterans. That's the best answer—

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I think that's good. That's helpful. I just have a short time.

In the last meeting, you cited that the sexual misconduct support and resource centre is the lead for all matters of sexual trauma. You talked about VAC and Atlas working in collaboration with SMSRC.

Can you clarify VAC's relationship with Atlas? Are you the clinical medicine and GBA+ quality assurance for that group? For example, if Atlas was to create a training document for family doctors on MST, how would that be coordinated with you and SMSRC?

[Dr. Cyd Courchesne]

Thank you.

We don't do quality assurance for Atlas. Our relationship with Atlas is that they are funded by us through a contribution agreement. They are a not-for-profit, independent organization.

We do work very closely to let them know what our priorities are, what our areas are and what we're hearing. They are also very good at working with the veteran community. They have reference groups. They get the information directly from them.

We have frequent meetings to exchange. They let us know what products and services they're developing. If it pertains to SMSRC, then we'll share that information with them also. I'd say we're good at keeping the channels of communication open between all our organizations.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Ms. Blaney.

Now let's go to MP Fraser Tolmie for five minutes, please.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you, Chair. I'll direct my questions through you.

I want to thank the guests for being here, and thank some of them for returning.

I'm a little bit concerned, so I'd like to ask this question through the chair to Ms. Michelin.

I'm sure there may have been a misunderstanding in a previous question posed by my friend from the Bloc, Mr. Desilets, regarding keeping track of the number of sexual misconduct cases per year. It was also brought up by my colleague, Mr. Dowdall, in Tuesday's meeting.

Is it not concerning that you told this committee that it's outside of your scope to keep track of the number of cases per year, when the SMSRC reports annually on the case numbers?

On Tuesday night, while we were actually in this committee, the media reported on the spike in cases.

[Linda Rizzo Michelin]

Thank you for the question, and thank you for allowing me to clarify.

The number of sexual assault cases is tracked within the Department of National Defence through the chief professional conduct and culture team. It's not tracked within SMSRC, which is what I was referring to in that.

[Shoba Ranganathan]

May I clarify?

We keep track of the cases we see, the clients who come to us, which is not necessarily the number of sexual assault cases that exist. There is a bit of a differentiation between the two, if that makes sense.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Well, no, because this is a public committee, and I think people who may be watching this would probably want an explanation. Could you explain that?

[Shoba Ranganathan]

What we keep track of are the clients we see. We have over 1,400 clients or people who have come to us seeking support and resources.

We are not a reporting centre, so we do not receive reports of sexual assault. That is sent through the military police. They keep track of the number of cases that are reported.

We know that there is under-reporting of cases, so we may have people who are reaching out to us who have not officially reported a sexual assault case. We also may have people who are reaching out to us who have historical sexual assault cases from 20 or 30 years ago, who are now receiving support.

We're very much about the clients to whom we're providing service. We are interested in the numbers, of course, in terms of the number of cases that are occurring, and we are tracking the trends that are occurring, but we are not, ourselves, documenting the number of sexual assault cases that are reported.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Okay.

Are you saying to me that the numbers that have been quoted in the media are the ones that are from the military police and are actually being dealt with right now?

[Linda Rizzo Michelin]

If you're referring to the Statistics Canada survey in terms of the results, let's just back that up.

The Statistics Canada survey was conducted within the Canadian Armed Forces, so that was based on the respondents who would have completed the survey. That number is what is being put forward, based on the response rates of the Statistics Canada survey.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Okay.

Obviously, we're not happy to hear that the numbers are going up. It's very disappointing.

Colonel, I know that my colleague asked a question earlier about information with regard to equipment and the challenges, and I appreciated your honesty. It's like being back in the military, where you don't know something you don't know, and you've let people know that you don't know. It's not like that around here, let me tell you.

I asked this question to a former military doctor about dealing with clients. What has been the difference that you notice, maybe, that someone who has suffered from the same injury, a male and a female...? What have you noticed as the difference between the two, and what is the difference in medical prescriptions for the two?

That's not really clear, is it?

[Col Peter Rowe]

Thank you for the question. Yes, I understand the question. I am just trying to understand how it applies to my work.

I don't think it does. We're not involved in the treatment of clients. We support clients.

To answer your question on differences between men and women, I'm not sure if I am seeing that in the work we're doing.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

All right. You're kind of stumping me here because you're not really giving me a lot of information.

Chair, I think I'm going to either cede my time or....

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Tolmie.

Now, I invite MP Sean Casey, for five minutes, please.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to start with you, Colonel Rowe.

In your opening remarks, you referenced the operational stress injury support service. Is that service available to complainants or victims of military sexual trauma?

[Col Peter Rowe]

Thank you for the question.

I would say, yes, it is, in the sense that we're established to help clients who are suffering from operational stress injuries, and we see that a military sexual trauma can result in an OSI. In that sense we are willing to support clients who come to us looking for assistance with their OSIs.

If we know that it's related to sexual misconduct, we will also suggest that they may want to connect with the SMSRC, which we see as maybe more specialized in that area. Certainly, our peer supporters aren't necessarily trained in helping or assisting with sexual misconduct cases, so we want to make sure they are getting the help they need.

If we can help them with the more general impacts of OSIs on their lives and the social behaviours that result from OSIs, we are more than happy. In some cases, I believe clients can be seen in both programs.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Ms. Rizzo Michelin, you referenced an independent legal advice program. I googled it. I see that the program is available to support those who have a complaint against them and also to support complainants in military justice cases and criminal justice cases.

In essence, it's there to provide support for someone who, in those proceedings, will be a witness. It doesn't provide support to someone who is contemplating a civil action. Is that right?

[Linda Rizzo Michelin]

I will provide a bit of a clarity in terms of that.

The independent legal assistance program is for those who have been affected by sexual misconduct. They are a victim of sexual misconduct. They have sought support through legal services for legal information or legal advice. The funding for reimbursement would not support a civil suit. It really is for expenses incurred where they've sought advice from a lawyer in terms of their particular sexual misconduct case.