Veterans Affairs Committee on Dec. 12th, 2023

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Ms. Petitpas Taylor, I am sure you are going to change things. As an eternal optimist, I genuinely believe that. However, I wish you would have distanced yourself, even just a little, from this preposterous affair out of respect for veterans. It is tarnishing their image. You are tying them to this wonderful project, which is more than a project. We are talking about a monument that will be standing for the next century, and my fear is that it will be seen as a symbol of shame or division.

I will just wrap up with one small question. Do you have a way out of this crisis? Some members of your party are talking about two monuments.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Mr. Desilets, I would argue it's the exact opposite. The veterans I've met with right across the country have told me how eager they are to see the monument built and for it to be officially unveiled.

I want to make a quick comment. You cited the number Ms. Arbour mentioned, but it is important to keep in mind that 40,000 veterans contributed to Canada's mission in Afghanistan. We are talking about a specific percentage of the veteran population, so let's not compare apples and oranges.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Minister.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

With all due respect, we are talking about Justice Arbour, are we not?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Desilets.

The last speaker for this first round will be MP Rachel Blaney for six minutes.

Go ahead, please.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

Of course, thank you to the minister and her team who are here with us today.

Through the chair, I recently submitted an Order Paper question to Veterans Affairs asking about appointments that both the minister and the deputy minister have taken concerning specifically veterans who are women, indigenous and members of the 2SLGBTQ+ communities or persons living with disability.

Rather than getting an answer, I have received a response saying that it was simply too difficult to track. For the sake of transparency and to make sure that we're seeing the minister's leadership support marginalized veterans, could you table with this committee the list of appointments that you and your deputy minister have taken since you became minister?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

I would be happy to do that.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

The next question I have is on the recurring issue, which veterans have raised repeatedly, around the fact that so many of them are still struggling to find a permanent home or have serious housing insecurity. We've heard clearly as well, through the study on women veterans that we've been having lately, that women are really challenged to feel safe in some of their living spaces.

Is there any consideration at your level around having veterans housing that is for women only?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

As you're probably aware, we've made a recent funding announcement when it comes to veterans' homelessness. We've received a number of applications that are actually being assessed and evaluated right now with the department of infrastructure and also our department. Certainly, the issue of women's housing is an area that I think is a great priority. It's needed. Through the study that you've done over the past number of weeks, I certainly have recognized that the topic has come up as well.

I am certainly committed and looking into that. We recognize that $80 million for the funding, or almost that, is certainly not going to address the entire issue, but I think we can certainly make some progress in that area.

Also, there's making sure that.... When it comes to rent supps, sometimes it's making sure that women can choose where they want to live and that the subsidy will help them pay that rent. That will go a long way as well. Again, it's making sure that those wraparound services are appropriate and trauma-informed in some areas where they need to be. All of that will be taken into consideration, depending on the applications we've received as well.

Again, I want to share with the committee that the applications are closed and those applications are being evaluated right now. I'm hoping, in the very near future, that we'll be able to make some funding announcements regarding some projects.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you for that. I certainly hope to see some focus on women-only centres. We know and have heard repeatedly that this seems to be a significant gap in the services.

The other factor we've heard about repeatedly from women veterans is that they feel invisible, and it's particularly around health concerns not being properly recorded while they were serving in the CAF. Often, these women were silenced. They were bullied to not speak up. They were ignored. We've heard of women who were raped and there was no rape kit offered. Often, women were just standing the line because they fought so hard to get there that they didn't want to see their service diminished in that way.

I'm just wondering: How will the minister address this reality in terms of the work at VAC? Women often do not have the appropriate documentation to support the significant physical and mental health needs they have because of the lack of records from CAF. Is there any discussion happening at a ministerial level to, number one, start addressing this more and, number two, offer an official apology to the women who serve so that it can be recognized by the public of Canada?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Through the chair, it's an excellent question, Ms. Blaney.

Again, I have been following very closely the study you have done, because it's an area that's near and dear to my heart, having been a social worker prior to entering politics. The stories and the testimonies I heard at this committee are heart-wrenching. They were tough and they were hard to hear, but they needed to be heard and they need to be heard. If we want to do better, we have to know what's going on. We have to know on the ground what's going on in order to put better policies in place.

I've been a minister for the past four months now, and the file when it comes to women veterans is of great interest to me. All the files are of great interest, but I have a keen interest in this one. One of the first things I've done is to ask my staff.... This is probably not even public knowledge yet, but I am going to be putting in place a women's advisory ministerial committee to really look at women's issues. I think we recognize that women are 51% of the population, and I think getting their input with respect to what is needed will certainly better inform the decisions that I make as a minister. We are in the process right now of looking at the terms of reference, the mandate of this committee and the membership of this committee, but again, I'm looking forward to the very near future, in the new year. That is a concrete step that I'm taking and, again, we're wanting to hear from veterans themselves to see what is working and what is not.

The other thing that I really want to make sure of as well is that, when female veterans and all veterans are contacting Veterans Affairs, they are treated with empathy and with professionalism as well. Again, I know that we have heard some stories here at committee that were tough to hear. I certainly want to make sure that our veterans receive the best care and service possible. Looking at those types of policies and what can be done to ameliorate, to help, to better the situation is absolutely a priority of mine.

Finally, the last comment I'm going to make is with respect to GBA+. When we look at gender-based analysis, it's not just words and it's not just the ticking of a box. We really have to look at all of our policies that we put in place and do that analysis: How does this impact women? We all recognize that different policies can affect men, women or different genders differently, so we have to make sure that we take the appropriate time to put that lens on with respect to the policies. That includes physical injuries as well as mental health injuries. I think we have a lot of work that needs to be done in that area, and I am committed to doing that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much.

Now let's go to the second round of questions.

We have Mr. Blake Richards for five minutes, please.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Minister, do injured veterans who are seeking to appeal a disability benefit decision have a right to retain independent legal counsel or advice before Veterans Affairs or the Veterans Review and Appeal Board?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

If an individual goes before the VRAB and cannot afford a lawyer, they are able to have a lawyer that is paid for by the department. If they choose that they want to hire their own lawyer, they are able to do so.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Okay. If a veteran chooses to hire independent legal counsel, they have the right to do so is what you're telling us.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Absolutely.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Interestingly, there is a veteran who has filed in Federal Court because she believes she's been told that's not in fact the case. Perhaps that can be settled very quickly—I hope.

I think the very fact that veterans even feel the need to want to hire independent legal counsel to be able to navigate the complex and bureaucratic processes in VAC is more proof that your government is failing our veterans. These are people who have served this country, and they go to this department for help.

They're asking your government for help. They're finding that the process is so complicated, convoluted and lengthy that they don't even feel that they can navigate it by themselves. They feel they need to go and hire a lawyer to do it. Does that not tell you there's something wrong?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Mr. Richards, I think we can always do better when it comes to our services. That's why it is so important we do everything possible to make improvements.

That said, I can tell you that we have made historic investments. We want to keep supporting veterans. We can always provide better services, and that's exactly what we will keep doing.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Every time, whether it be you or your predecessor, it's always the same answer: We're trying to do better. We're not doing very well right now, but we're trying to do better. It happens every single time. At some point you have to be accountable and actually do better. I don't think you can measure it by.... You've talked about how many people you've hired. You've talked about all the announcements you've made and haven't delivered on. You've talked about how much money you've spent. Veterans want to see results. That's all they care about. All the rest of it doesn't matter. It's the results.

Frankly, every single day I hear from veterans who are finding it's not taking months. In many cases, it's measured in years the amount of time it takes to get any kind of a decision. They have to go all the way through a whole set of appeals processes. Many of them feel like giving up; it's just that complicated.

I really hope you're going to reflect so that maybe next time when you come back you can actually tell us about some results, rather than saying you'll try to do better next time. We need results. That's what veterans expect.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Mr. Chair, I certainly—

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Let's look at another of your departmental results indicators: “Veterans are able to adapt, manage, and cope within post-service life”. I hear from veterans like Wade Ritchie, petty officer, 2nd class, who happens to be a constituent of mine, who says that his transition to civilian life was held up and complicated. In fact, he was left to his own devices. He was having so much trouble navigating the bureaucratic maze that is both VAC and the PCVRS situation. His own case manager won't even get back to him to try to help him navigate that.

Doug Kromrey reached out on behalf of one of his former soldiers who was diagnosed with PTSD while he was in the military but who then had to fight to try to re-prove that condition to VAC when he left the military. He was then denied the support he needed. Even though while in the military he was diagnosed with it, VAC didn't recognize it. He couldn't seem to convince VAC that the condition the military told him he had existed.

Nicole Murillo is one of many veterans who can't find a family doctor. She therefore can't get prescriptions or the referrals she needs for the VAC programs.

I just can't stress enough that we hear from dozens of veterans every single week who have lost access to services they once had due to VAC's sloppy transition to this new service provider. How can our veterans thrive post-service when they suddenly lose their benefits and supports or when they can't even get them to begin with?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

As I said, we are constantly working to improve our programming. We are making investments, and we have hired additional staff to make sure that all applications are processed much more quickly.

I would ask you to consider why you didn't support the additional investments we wanted to secure for the Department of Veterans Affairs last week. That was truly shameful.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Minister, we just hear it time and time again from you and your predecessors: We're going to try to do better. When are you going to actually deliver results? It's time for some results. Veterans deserve better than what they're getting here.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Mr. Richards, with respect to doing better, I think we have to look at the facts. When it comes to Veterans Affairs Canada, we have seen a 61% increase in applications. Since 2015 we've invested more than $11 billion in additional support for veterans. We continue to make sure that more services are provided to them, and more applications are coming in. We are always going to be there to help support our veterans.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

It's time they started receiving better from you.