Veterans Affairs Committee on June 10th, 2026

[Toufic El-Daher]

I'm willing to take that risk. At the end of the day, it takes political courage. It takes courage to act so veterans are treated well. I'll say it again: Under this contract, veterans are not being fully taken care of. Leaving a veteran behind is a failure.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

Thank you.

Mr. Vila, Madam Gaudreau will address you in French.

Ms. Gaudreau, you may go ahead for six minutes.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. El‑Daher, why did the department decide to privatize the services? Did they give you any information or an explanation?

[Toufic El-Daher]

Unfortunately not.

The union found out from members and the news that the department was going to privatize physical and mental rehabilitation services. Vocational rehabilitation was already being provided externally, so that's fine, but we didn't know about the mental and psychological rehabilitation services.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

You were told that's how it would be from then on, full stop.

[Toufic El-Daher]

That's correct.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Let's go back in time for a moment.

For any project or contract, adjustments need to be made, even in-house. What adjustments should the department have made, instead of contracting out the services and escaping any responsibility if problems arose?

[Toufic El-Daher]

I think one of the major, long-standing problems we've had at Veterans Affairs Canada is the lack of resources.

Two former deputy ministers had promised us that case managers would have 25 cases. Unfortunately, we're nowhere near that. This past March 23, I heard the employer say that it was close to the target, but from what I'm hearing, caseloads are between 40 and 45 cases. That's a far cry from the target.

Veterans Affairs Canada needs more resources and new case managers. VAC's role and the outside company's role really need to be defined. Right now, three parties are involved, Blue Cross, Lifemark and Veterans Affairs Canada. If it's confusing for us, imagine what it's like for veterans.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

When it comes to service delivery, everyone has their strengths. It's clear this isn't the government's strong suit, regardless of the party in power. Here's what worries me: there is no regard for the person in all this. Is it all about administration and quotas?

Could you talk about the strain you're under?

[Toufic El-Daher]

There are still a lot of administrative requirements, unfortunately. I've been with Veterans Affairs Canada for 24 years, and it keeps saying it wants to streamline and eliminate red tape. Unfortunately, the reality is there's still a lot of red tape. It's not true that case managers no longer do administrative work, that all they do is case management. The fact is that's not true.

What's going to happen? We don't know. We're scared and we're anxious, because we need more resources. However, we are seeing the employer use PCVRS more and more, unfortunately, so that adds to the anxiety weighing on our members. Employees are wondering what will happen to them in the coming years, whether they'll still be there.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Were you told there would be an independent impartial review? My understanding is that the contract will be up for renewal soon, so I'm wondering whether anything is in motion. Is a report coming? When will the contract be renewed? Did they say anything to you?

[Toufic El-Daher]

We had an in-person national meeting with the employer's representatives on May 28, in Charlottetown, and they told us they would be looking for an independent reviewer in the coming weeks. The contract ends in December, at the end of the year, but we all know what's going to happen.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

What's going to happen?

[Toufic El-Daher]

I'm pretty sure the contract will be renewed, with or without the review. The department has put $570 million into the contract, with an option for an additional two years, if I recall correctly.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

When it comes to the administration of these services, we're being told not only that the service delivery expertise is not there, but also that decision-making is based on how much money has been put in, not on the quality of the service provided. That seems to be the case everywhere. My office is turning into a Service Canada and Canada Revenue Agency office. What's your view?

[Toufic El-Daher]

I agree. I'll repeat what I said earlier. The experts are at Veterans Affairs Canada. The rehabilitation service experts at PCVRS don't have the same education. They don't have the skills to treat veterans with trauma. In some cases, our case managers have to call the rehabilitation service experts to tell them how to talk to the veterans they're going to call. That's ridiculous.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

It's not consistent, then.

[Toufic El-Daher]

No, not at all. They don't have the same skills or education. What they really do is administration, but the government treats them like case managers. It's unbelievable.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I have just 20 seconds, so next time, I'd like to discuss the possibility of using existing resources to do a complete 180.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

Thank you, Ms. Gaudreau.

Now we'll start our second round.

For five minutes, we have Mrs. Wagantall.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you so much, Chair.

The PCVRS contract cost taxpayers over $600 million for five years. You could put through a lot of training for a number of new case managers with that kind of money, yet the Lifemark officials told this committee just a couple of months ago that the program was still in its infancy and that's why there were issues.

I don't know if you're aware that Lifemark is responsible for determining and signing up providers through PCVRS. Loblaw and Mr. Galen Weston purchased Lifemark for $845 million and are now a major footprint in this business of physiotherapy and rehabilitation.

I have just learned that there are two kinds of providers: affiliates and out-of-network providers. I had some providers in my office a while back who were part of a big clinic, and I said, “Okay, so you're all set up there. Are you part of PCVRS?” They said no. I asked why. They said there were two reasons. They said, “We have so many veterans and responders that come to us and we have people that we take care of.”

The second reason was the contract. The contract required them to sign a right of first refusal to Lifemark, so that if they did want to sell their business, they had to notify Lifemark, put it in writing and propose. Then Lifemark would have 30 days to respond. It's right in the contract, which I have. During that time, they try to come to an agreement. If no agreement is signed within 30 days, the affiliate is free to look for other buyers. For 180 days, the affiliate can market and sell the business to a third party, but only on terms that are the same as those offered to Lifemark. The third party buyer cannot get a better deal than Lifemark.

I don't see a service here that is set up with veterans as the priority.

It's the same thing with the Veterans Transition Network. They signed up as an out-of-network provider. They got a call finally, two years later, saying that because they were out-of-network, they couldn't be given any clients.

As case managers, is this what you hear from veterans? What's your perspective on that?

[Martha Josephian, Case Manager and Alternate Vice President, Union of Veterans' Affairs Employees]

As a case manager in London, Ontario, my colleagues and I regularly see the impact of veterans not being able to select their provider of choice. They may be working with a clinic or a specific individual, a physiotherapist, and they are not able to continue working with that individual once they're on the rehab program with PCVRS. There's a lack of choice there, and it really impacts their recovery and their wellness. I consistently hear that concern from clients and that it is an ongoing issue.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

We had a stakeholder testify yesterday who is part of Lifemark, and they indicated that they can use their previous provider in a parallel way. Can you explain that to me? How do you pay two different providers to meet your need and you supposedly say, “This is what I need”?

[Martha Josephian]

This speaks to the confusion that veterans experience. They can access services through PCVRS for their eligible health conditions, the health conditions they are on the rehabilitation program for. Other health issues they would, as you say, in parallel seek assistance and treatment through their A-line benefits and also possibly through the public service health care plan. It becomes very fragmented, and it's very confusing for clients.