Debates of Jan. 25th, 1994

Foreign Affairs

[Len Taylor, NDP, The Battlefords—Meadow Lake, SK]

I will make the comment and as I indicated I am very happy to be able to do so while the minister is present.

Essentially the issue of peacekeeping is one that is important to all members of the House as we recognized in the debate today so far. I have heard in the debate a desire of members of this House to support the peacekeeping troops and the peacekeeping efforts for the most part, but mostly there is support for the young men and women who are skilled, talented, courageous and sometimes confused in their efforts. They are often asked to do jobs that are difficult and dangerous and we have seen that on television and we have heard about it in the debate today.

As you know, Mr. Speaker, and for the benefit of the minister they are often called upon to react to situations they have never before encountered. They are often asked to react very quickly. The defence department, this government and members of this Parliament recognize that we have to stand behind these troops in the circumstances in which they find themselves.

Today a young man lies confused, frustrated and angry in an Ottawa hospital. His parents, residents of the Flying Dust Band in my constituency in northwest Saskatchewan wonder what has happened to their son. He is a very decent young man and eager to serve his people. He is a role model for the youth in his community. Master Corporal Clayton Matchee went to Somalia with Canadians forces to serve a peacekeeping role. His physical and mental injuries are not the result of a military engagement, but rather the result of a hanging in a Canadian compound. Military officials say he hung himself in an effort to take his own life.

Despite inconsistencies in the evidence, despite expressed concern with his commanding officer, despite his inability to speak on his own behalf, Master Corporal Clayton Matchee is facing charges of second degree murder and torture in the death of a Somali man.

Canada's peacekeepers are asked to do many jobs on a daily basis and some of their work is simply expected to be done. When we as parliamentarians talk about our role in peacekeeping we have to realize that we ourselves are not out there on the front line. We can think we know what it is like out there but we really do not know. We have to, like a good hockey coach, encourage our team to go out there and do the best that they can.

Therefore, in the course of the debate today I want to call on the Minister of National Defence to drop the charges against Master Corporal Clayton Matchee. The circumstances surrounding his case are confusing. It will take more than a military court to determine the events which led to the deaths in Somalia, the actions of some members of the Canadian airborne, the hanging of Master Corporal Matchee, the subsequent charges and the charges brought against his commanding officer.

In conclusion let me say that the circumstances need to be examined and I have no doubt that eventually the truth will come out, but I would very much like the minister to take steps to drop those charges in the interests of the family of Master Corporal Matchee and in the interests of all peacekeepers. This will show that we will support our troops regardless of the circumstances into which they are put.

[The Deputy Speaker]

It seems to me that those comments are not addressed to the member for Bourassa, but if he wishes to respond-

[Osvaldo Nunez, Bloc, Bourassa, QC]

I would like to join the hon. member in thanking and congratulating Canadian soldiers, most of whom come from Quebec, who are serving their country in Bosnia and the other parts of the former Yugoslavia.

[Louis Plamondon, Bloc, Richelieu, QC]

I have been listening to the debate since this morning and I want to congratulate my learned colleague for bringing up a different aspect of this issue. My colleague talked about humanitarian aid. He pointed out the

relationship that exists between Canada's role as a peacekeeper throughout the world and the need to provide humanitarian support to certain areas. He also talked about participating in the organization or the supervision of elections throughout the world.

I think he was the first one in the House today to underline the importance of these two aspects.

I would like to ask my colleague to elaborate further since it is an issue of great concern to most Quebecers and Canadians.

[Osvaldo Nunez, Bloc, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Speaker, briefly, I think Canada's role at the international level is also to promote democracy and the democratic process all over the world. Recently, I was a member of Canada's official delegation that was sent to Russia to supervise the December 12 elections. Our role in these elections, which also included a referendum, was greatly appreciated by the people. I think we should accentuate Canada's role not only in the promotion of peace in the world, but also in the development of democracy.

[Bill Rompkey, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Mr. Speaker, may I first of all congratulate you on your appointment to the Chair and the Speaker on his election. Indeed, I congratulate all those who occupy the Chair.

May I say at the beginning something about this particular debate. I have been here for 21 years and I believe that the debate today is the best debate I have heard in the Chamber. It is frank, well informed, useful, constructive and in advance of a decision. I congratulate the government for bringing forward the debate and I congratulate all members for the way they have participated in the debate.

I would like to make the following points on this issue. First, it seems to me that peacekeeping is one of the primary matters that has defined us as Canadians. We look for definitions of ourselves and it seems to me that peacekeeping is one of those things that has defined us. It has told the world the kind of people we are, the kind of things we believe in and the kind of role we want to play as citizens in the world.

I do not want to go over again the ground that has already been covered very adequately about Canada's role in peacekeeping over the years. We have acquitted ourselves well and suffice to say we do now have a reputation in the world, a reputation that is honourable, that is justified, that is very real and that I believe should be maintained.

We now have peacekeeping operations all over the world. It is something that Canada has done well, continues to do and something I believe Canada should commit itself to in the future as one of the priorities of defence policy. There are many aims and objectives of defence policy but among those out of country objectives I believe that peacekeeping should be at the top of the list.

However, we need to understand we can only do so much. Our resources are limited and we will have to justify according to set criteria our involvement in peacekeeping operations in the future. I believe it is understood that we are already stretched to the limit and that we cannot take up any more.

The other point I want to make about peacekeeping is that it provides an opportunity for the Canadian forces. It may be one of those few out of country opportunities provided for the Canadian forces at the present time. It gives our soldiers, airmen and naval personnel an opportunity to practise the kind of training that they have had and the kind of professionalism that they exemplify so well.

These peacekeeping opportunities provide us with an opportunity to show what we are trained for and to show leadership. We now have about 2,000 of our personnel in the former Yugoslavia. Our mission in Bosnia is not traditional peacekeeping. We are there not only to keep warring factions apart but to deliver humanitarian aid.

Many people have been upset by the situations that Canadians have found themselves in recently, particularly where they have been harassed and even abused in the course of their duties. I was privileged to spend several days at Valcartier last spring with the Vandoos before they went to the former Yugoslavia. I can tell the House that our troops receive up to date, thorough and excellent training before they go abroad. They are very well equipped to make decisions. They found themselves in some very difficult situations and they have handled themselves with honour and distinction.

We are doing an important job in Bosnia. It is true there is still a great deal of horror being experienced in that country but people are alive now because we are there. People are fed because we are in Bosnia. There is no holocaust, there is no genocide because we are in Bosnia. The point I am making is that things would be a great deal worse if we were not there.

My position is that we should stay in Bosnia as long as we are providing a useful role. I believe we are at the present time. I would counsel against unilateral withdrawal. We are there as members of the United Nations. We must not forget we are there as members of NATO. NATO has a role in Bosnia. In addition to our role in UN peacekeeping operations over the years we have been a valued and esteemed member of NATO. It is important to

send the right signals about the strength of the trans-Atlantic alliance as this stage of the game.

There were arguments made this morning that perhaps a threat of withdrawal would be useful. It could also be argued that it would be counterproductive because it would send a signal to those factions in Bosnia that they did not have to negotiate, that they did not have to be serious at the negotiating table and that they could carry on as they have been doing. It seems to me that the threat of withdrawal sends the wrong signal.

I believe Canada should stay with the mission at the present time and that we should withdraw only in consultation with our colleagues, the other members of the UN. What must be rectified is the gap that exists between UN decision making and implementation of those decisions. That gap has been identified not only by our own personnel such as General MacKenzie, but most recently by the Belgian general as well.

We should put our efforts into rectifying the weaknesses that exist in UN decision-making and implementation. We have to strengthen the UN for Bosnia and all the other Bosnias that are going to happen. It is true-perhaps we have not made this point clearly enough today-that the cold war is over. However, many would argue there is not more but less stability as a result of that. There is still instability in the world. There is still a threat to world peace. As long as that exists the chances are that we are going to have to contribute more in time and effort to situations like Bosnia.

It is important we strengthen institutions such as the UN in its decision making and implementation process. We should also ensure that the burden is shared fairly. We have every right to expect that. Canada has given perhaps more than its share, certainly more than other countries. We should expect the burden to be shared fairly.

I would like to conclude by saying my last words to Canadian soldiers and to quote the Canadian soldier who appeared in one of the most recent television clips having come back after his convoy was harassed and shot at by those he was really put there to help. He said: "This is what I have been trained for. This is what I have been trained to do. It is an opportunity for me. This is the job we are here to do and it is the job we want to do". I think he speaks for Canadian personnel in their determination to do the best job they can. It is up to us as parliamentarians to give them the proper back-up to do the job.

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Peterborough, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I listened with great interest to what the hon. member had to say. I thought it was very well put. Today we are having this very special debate. It is focused on Bosnia and the problems associated with it.

I would like to make a comment and ask the hon. member a question. It seems to me this lends urgency to the matter of a defence review. I know this is to be a public review but would it not be much better to move toward an armed force which is much more citizen based and in which there are many more opportunities not only for full-time very professional service but also for a variety of part-time service commitments and the strengthening of the cadet corps? I think that would focus on the various types of peacekeeping and peacemaking we have at the present time much better.

I also hope that the public review recommends better use of our bases so they can be training bases for international missions and things of that type.

The other review which is in the offing, I think next year or the year after, is a full-scale formal review of the United Nations. We heard a good deal from the hon. member just now about the way the United Nations has been operating in Bosnia.

For myself, and I say this as a great supporter of the United Nations, it seems that in the area, for example, of science and education the United Nations has become unnecessarily cumbersome and fat. It is extremely important that Canada play a key role in the revitalization of the United Nations.

Would the hon. member care to comment on those two reviews, the defence review and the review of the United Nations.

[Bill Rompkey, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Mr. Speaker, I think I have already indicated my concurrence with the point he is putting forward about the UN. The problems we have in Bosnia are not with the troops or with the military personnel but are with the political will and the political structures that give form and structure to the way in which they are operating. That is where reform is needed. If we do not reform those institutions we are going to be worse off in future than we have been in the past.

The UN is really the only institution that can adequately deal with this situation. Perhaps CSCE or NATO as supplementary agencies can have a role but unless the UN is strong and has the political will and the structures, I do not think we will be able to deal with these things adequately in future.

On the reserves I support the total force concept. There are reserves overseas now in peacekeeping operations. We depend on them heavily. We will I believe and I hope depend on them even more heavily in future. It is clearly the way to go. I was in the forces myself in the reserves in an institution that no longer exists, the University Naval Training Division. It was an excellent way for young people to get a start in life, to earn some money, to get an education and for me to become a Canadian. It is something that we have to strengthen.

We have seen some creative thinking already on the future use of bases, for example, St. Margarets in New Brunswick where private enterprise has bought a whole base and is now using it as a housing unit. That is a very creative use of the former armed forces base. Also there are educational initiatives taking place particularly in the province of Nova Scotia which use existing facilities for the training of young people. There are creative ways that we can make use of armed forces bases as well. I totally support what he says.

[Svend Robinson, NDP, Burnaby—Kingsway, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the hon. member for his intervention and for his support for a continuing role for Canadian forces in the former Yugoslavia.

I want to ask the member a specific question with respect to some of the concerns that have been raised about the nature of the mandate and the rules of engagement. The member is well aware as an experienced member in this area of the concerns raised by General Briquemont, General Cot, and others in this regard.

Does the hon. member support a strengthening of the mandate to ensure that when we talk about safe havens and in particular the six safe havens that were identified by the United Nations in resolution 836 in June last year which are clearly not safe when innocent children are slaughtered in cold blood in the snow as they play on their sleds. Does the hon. member agree with the need for a strengthening of the ability of the forces on the ground to respond to that kind of very serious attack?

[Bill Rompkey, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Mr. Speaker, I would absolutely agree with that. That is part of the point I have been trying to make. The weakness is not on the ground but with the structures under which that personnel operates. We have to strengthen the mandate there. We also have to provide adequate personnel to carry out the mandate.

At the present time it seems to me that we do not have enough resources in the former Yugoslavia to do the job. In addition to what is there now perhaps we need more forces to carry out the mandate, but obviously the mandate has to be strengthened.

[Len Hopkins, Liberal, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I compliment those who have stood in their places today to express their views on this very important topic.

Someone asked how we gained a reputation as peacekeepers. I would suggest it did not just start in recent times. I would go back to World War I where 66,000 young Canadians lost their lives. I would go back to the League of Nations where the first big challenge came to the league 12 years after it was founded in about 1931 when Japan entered Manchuria. There was no muscle in the league. No one wanted to take a stand. They had problems back home that were more pressing and Asia was too far away. The league failed in that one.

In 1935 the league failed again when the Italians took over Abyssinia. There were too many problems. France did not want to disrupt its relationships with Germany. What happened was that we simply drifted into two world wars because there was no one who was ready to take a firm stand united together. If there is anything the United Nations stands for today it is the element of unity, of bringing countries of the world together to take an international stand against aggressors.

My feeling is that in no way can we allow an aggressor to get away with anything. The War Crimes Commission is on the ground in Yugoslavia now. That should be followed up with charges against those who commit war crimes, those who have committed war crimes against children, women and the elderly, those who have destroyed property and everything under the sun in the horrible situation in the former Yugoslavia. The court system is not good enough for them. They must be brought to justice. If that is not done it is a weakness within the UN itself, but I would suggest the world community would demand that it be done.

The Right Hon. Lester B. Pearson is another reason why Canada has peacekeeping in operation today in a very successful way. He started that in 1956 in Egypt and the Middle East. Canadians really made their mark there. We were active in many peacekeeping operations. Of course the first big test for the United Nations was the Korean war itself. Over 1,500 young Canadians gave up their lives on that occasion.

The question today in my mind is not whether we can afford peacekeeping. The question is whether we can afford to be without it. My answer is no. We cannot afford to be without it. We cannot afford to sit back or to have other countries sit back. Other countries have a firm responsibility in this regard along with us. They must play a role. They must pull their weight.

If we do not take a stand against all these little aggressors around the world then we are going to have a major conflict. We are going to have other young people from this nation, the cream of the crop, in another world war. Heaven knows what that will be like. We cannot have this situation coming about. We must handle bonfires wherever they occur in the world.

I would like to say a word about what happens at home. Military people are looked upon as soldiers. What about their spouses back home? What about their families back home when the other spouse is sent off to peacekeeping duties for six months at a time as they are today? What help do they have? What about the mother with three or four small children? What help does she receive?

There is help in the community. There is an organization called the rear party. It maintains communications with the families. There is always someone there to help them. They give them information about what is going on in the United Nations

site where their spouses are, where their fathers or mothers are or whatever the case may be. Spousal groups are included in the rear party organization back home on the base. Spouses meet with the rear party. Spouses write messages and news items. They send tapes to their loved ones. No one is left alone.

A resource centre was set up in Petawawa. I live three miles from the base gate at Petawawa, Ontario. I used to teach school there. I was there for five and one-half years before going into politics. I have learned the operations of the military community, how it operates first hand. I have the greatest admiration for those people.

The family resource centre provides advice and assistance to the rear party group. They work with agencies in the community. I must say of my own area in Renfrew County, in the Petawawa area, we have three Petawawas: the village, the township and the base. Then Pembroke is 10 or 12 miles away. Deep River and Chalk River are to the north. There are other communities around Renfrew County. They too support the base in spirit on Remembrance Day and in many ways as family units. They mix together and the rapport is tremendous.

Social workers are on the base to help these families when the soldiers are away on duty. There is a senior officer in each group who will have information on the families before they leave. They know the soldiers' spouses. They know about the soldiers' families. They mail videotapes back and forth. There are padres and doctors in the field and at home as well.

There is an overall unity plan working in a major role for military families. A well organized system is in place. We ask what about the expenses? These expenses are paid for. I want the taxpayers of Canada to know they are paid for by non-public funds. They are paid for by raffles. They are paid for by profits from messes, canteens and so on. This says a lot for the dedication and the care of the Canadian soldier community.

The work with agencies in the community is very important. At Christmastime they send letters back and forth. Before they leave they even make sure that their wills are intact so that if any accident does happen their families do not have to go through the whole legal rigmarole of putting things in place; they are already there.

The dedication and the ability to cope on the part of our Canadian forces are real examples of citizenship. Canadian soldiers will do the job they are called upon to do, as the hon. parliamentary secretary said this afternoon. Soldiers are prepared to do the job. We have some soldiers in the House today who are members of Parliament. I am glad they are here to give their first-hand experiences.

The mandate in the United Nations must be clear. There must be an element of co-operation among all parties. If not, our troops are indeed in danger. There must be a responsibility in the parties to respect international decisions. Should we arm the troops? People say: "Why not give them arms so they can go in and fight?" If we do that we are taking sides in the conflict and destroying the very basis of the UN in the first place.

I received a telephone call from one of my constituents today who wanted to see our soldiers armed. That is something which will have to be debated in the House and something the UN will have to take a closer look at in terms of how well they are armed to protect themselves. All parties must agree with the mandate and live up to it.

I am glad the War Crimes Commission is on the scene in Yugoslavia today to pin down people who are disobeying international law, those people who are committing war crimes. After this is over they should be brought to the International Court, formally charged, tried, and sentenced accordingly. We cannot allow this to go on.

Canadian soldiers, as I said, will do their job. Should they be in Yugoslavia? If we as one of the United Nations do not supply soldiers to look after the humanitarian side of operations in Yugoslavia to try to bring parties together and save the peace, we are not really living up to the international spirit that is the very basis of the United Nations itself.

Again I ask the question: can we afford to be there? In today's world, with trouble spots all over the world, I do not think we as Canadians can back away from it. We were one of the founders of the United Nations, one of the key players at its founding. Yes, the United Nations needs upgrading. It needs improvement to meet the situations and the challenges of the future. They are going to be many.

In order to do so we must work together with the international community. The UN must be strengthened and improved to enable it to meet those very situations. We cannot allow young children and women to suffer. If the United Nations were to pull out of Yugoslavia today there would be more rapes, more child abuse and more killings of children, women and elderly people. There would be no law at all.

We as human beings living on the face of this earth together today could not allow that to go on. We would have it on our consciences. Just remember, it was a small skirmish in Europe that set off the trigger for World War I. It was the depression years of the thirties that continued to set the stage for World War II. Again nobody stood up. Nobody wanted to be counted. They had too many problems at home.

Today we have a lot of problems at home. We have to look after them, try to solve them as well. We must also realize that the world today is like a little pea in a pod. It is small. Everything that happens around this world affects every other nation in the world. We cannot allow these bonfires to burn

without putting water on them, without cooling them and keeping peace in various parts of the world. We can bet it will be an ongoing battle. We have trouble spots today all over the world. The United Nations will have to face up to that or we will face a worse war in the future that maybe mankind itself will never survive.

Can we afford to be in the United Nations as peacekeepers? I do not think any sane nation on the face of the earth today has any other answer but yes, we have to be there. It is not a dollar value. It is a human value and it is the future of the world.

[Ron MacDonald, Liberal, Dartmouth, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I listened with a great deal of interest as I have for many years to my colleague from Renfrew. He has been an ardent and very convincing supporter of giving the Canadian military establishment the tools to do the job we have asked of it over the years. I cannot think of a more articulate proponent for the men and women who have chosen to serve our country through the Canadian Armed Forces than the member who just spoke.

I want to ask him a very specific set of questions. Even after one term, compared to my hon. colleague I am still a rookie when it comes to matters such as this one. One thing that deeply concerns me with the situation in Bosnia is the impotence or the seeming impotence of the United Nations in using its collective voice to try to force the aggressors in Bosnia to stop, cease and desist and to find some diplomatic, non-military, non-aggressive means to try to bring the situation to a head, to find a resolution.

It has been going on for far too long. We have had far too many children killed. We have had far too many people dislocated. We have heard of far too many rapes and acts of brutality, the likes of which we had not heard since the second world war. Time and time again the United Nations, that great and venerable institution, has passed resolutions but it seems to have forgotten to put some teeth into the resolutions. It seems not to have found the ways to enforce the resolutions so that the atrocities we have heard all too much about would have ceased. Indeed I want to quote what the outgoing UNPROFOR commander, Belgian Lieutenant General Francis Briquemont, said. This was in the Globe and Mail of January 24: ``There is a fantastic crisis now because the politicians are writing and voting I do not know how many resolutions, but we have no means to execute them''.

The question I ask of my colleague is: what is it that he believes Canada can do? What leading role can we take to ensure when the United Nations chooses to pass resolutions and actions in cases like this that in actual fact they are adhered to and there are teeth behind the resolutions? What role can Canada play to strengthen those resolutions?

[Len Hopkins, Liberal, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Mr. Speaker, first, Canada is loved and respected around the world. There is a great difference between being loved and being respected. We happen to have both those good qualities in the eyes of other countries.

The best work Canada can do today is to bring nations together in a diplomatic manner and have them sit down to decide on these measures, just as the Prime Minister did when he attended the NATO conference in Brussels recently.

We have to protect our own soldiers. We are not going to have them in situations where they are fired upon or bombed. They must be looked after. We cannot have the people over there using them as targets either.

Another thing I want to say to the hon. member, and I thank him for his kind comments at the beginning, is that it is very important that the United Nations itself be strengthened. If anything is going to come out of the situation in the former Yugoslavia it is going to be that the United Nations itself must be strengthened. It must be updated and brought into the 21st century. As I said in my speech, there will be many issues to face throughout the 21st century and we cannot do it with a century-old logic.

[Philippe Paré, Bloc, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, since I share the views expressed by the hon. member for Renfrew-Nipissing-Pembroke, I will not ask a question but I would like to make a comment. As I try to figure out why the people of Canada and Quebec have such mixed feelings about peacekeeping missions, I can see two ways to explain this. First, it seems to me that we still have a hard time seeing ourselves as citizens of the world. I think that when a larger and larger number of Canadians and Quebecers start to see themselves as such, they will see more clearly the need for our involvement.

The second point is that, as I see it, the peace missions in which Canada has taken part may have been too heavily focused on peacekeeping or pacification, giving a somewhat lower profile to the humanitarian aspect. The hon. member for Renfrew-Nipissing-Pembroke mentioned it but I would like to emphasize this point by pointing out that there are over 250 non-governmental organizations in Canada looking to provide humanitarian assistance around the world. I think that, when peacekeepers are sent on a mission, it is to keep the peace of course but also and perhaps more importantly to allow these organizations through which hundreds of Canadians want to provide humanitarian relief to reach the people who need it.

[Peter Milliken, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Government House Leader]

Mr. Speaker, I congratulate you on your appointment.

There have been discussions among the parties and I think you will find unanimous consent for the following motion:

That on Tuesday, January 25 and Wednesday, January 26 the ordinary hour of daily adjournment be deferred until 10 p.m. and that during the time of such extended sitting, no dilatory motion or quorum call shall be accepted by the Chair.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Is there unanimous consent?

[François Langlois, Bloc, Bellechasse, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the motion put forward by the hon. member for Kingston and the Islands reflects accurately what has been agreed upon and it is with pleasure that the Official Opposition gives consent.

[Svend Robinson, NDP, Burnaby—Kingsway, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I simply want to verify something. Considering what the Prime Minister said, I presume that if there are still members willing to participate in the debate at 10 p.m., we will be able to continue the debate. On that basis I will support the proposal.

[The Deputy Speaker]

I ask myself the same question. Could the parliamentary secretary clarify the issue?

[Peter Milliken, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Mr. Speaker, we can certainly have discussions around 10 p.m. to continue the debate if this is necessary. But it is the intention of all the House leaders to end the debate at 10 p.m. if that is possible. The House leaders hope that with two very long sittings today and tomorrow, and maybe next week, the debates should end at a reasonable time for all members, and this is what we are trying to do this afternoon.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Resuming debate. I believe the hon. member for Saanich-Gulf Islands wants to take the floor. I think the leader of the Reform Party has a point of order.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to begin by congratulating you on your attainment of your office. In the past you have had struggles with party discipline and it must give you some satisfaction to-

[The Deputy Speaker]

Excuse me, I have been reminded that I forgot to ask if there was unanimous consent to the motion that was put by the parliamentary secretary. I take it that that is not a problem and nobody is going to object. Then there is unanimous consent and everybody is happy.

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to.)

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I did just want to congratulate you on your attainment of your position. As I said, you have had your own struggles with party discipline in the past and it must give you satisfaction to preside over not just a Parliament but a session where party discipline is more relaxed.

I would also like to congratulate other members who have spoken today for the scope of their presentations and for the sincerity of their presentations. I personally found it both helpful and impressive.

That said, like all other members I have a deep interest in this issue from the standpoint of international security as well as from a humanitarian standpoint.

Members of Parliament from Calgary have a special interest in this issue because up to 1,600 personnel from the Currie base in Calgary are scheduled to go to Croatia and Bosnia in the next couple of months. I do think it is important that we are able to communicate to them and their families the reasons they are going, the job they are expected to do and the resources that will be made available to them.

Reform members have not approached this debate with any preconceived notions or positions. We hope to make a contribution however by identifying key questions to be resolved, commenting on those questions from a variety of perspectives and then trying to synthesize the responses of various members to those questions into guidelines which may be useful to the government.

What then are the main questions to which the government requires answers? We think there are three of them. The first is a broad question of foreign policy: Should Canada as a country continue to play a major role in international peacekeeping and enforcement? The second is a broad question of defence policy: What should be the role of Canada's armed forces as we approach the 21st century and how does that relate to international peacekeeping and enforcement? The third is a more particular question forced upon us by the urgency and the tragedy of events in the former Yugoslavia: Should Canada continue to play a role in the current United Nations peacekeeping operations in that part of the world? Obviously the third question would be easier to answer if there were clear answers to the first two.

Should Canada as a country continue to play a major role in international peacekeeping and enforcement? There are strong arguments in favour. Number one, we live in an unsafe world and there is an obvious need for international peacekeeping and humanitarian intervention. Number two, Canada has internationally recognized experience and expertise in this field of endeavour. The member for Red Deer has proposed that Canada should specialize in providing training in peacekeeping and

perhaps even export that to the world. Number three, Canada enjoys a greater degree of acceptance as a peacekeeper than many other nations, including the United States.

Those are all strong arguments but there are cautionary notes to be sounded as well. Number one, not every conflict situation is amenable to resolution by international peacekeeping forces. We will need to learn to distinguish between those that are and those that are not. Number two, Canada has limited resources and we cannot take on any and every request for peacekeeping activity that comes along. Number three, we need to give more attention as a number of members have said to the adequacy of the organizational structure under which peacekeeping operations are undertaken.

Obviously, the United Nations is needed to provide the legal and political framework for peacekeeping activities. But is the United Nations capable of providing the field command and logistic support required, or should that come from somewhere else, from a revamped NATO perhaps, or directly from a consortium of those countries that actually supply troops to these operations?

So let us look at the question: Should Canada as a country continue to play a major role in international peacekeeping and enforcement? The answer I hear suggested by the comments that have been made thus far today is, yes, but a qualified yes with much more attention being given in advance to how the peacekeeping effort is to be organized, its potential costs and the prospects of making a meaningful contribution.

Let me turn to the second question: What should be the role of Canada's armed forces as we approach the 21st century and how does that relate to international peacekeeping and enforcement? While this is not the subject of this debate as we were reminded by the minister of defence, it is the question which must be answered by the government's review of defence policy as promised in the speech from the throne.

At present the Canadian military is being told in a very loose and undefined way that it has at least four tasks to perform with $12 billion. It is to protect Canadian sovereignty, including our long sea coast in the context of continental defence. It is to participate in European security through the NATO arrangements. It is to provide support to the civil authorities at home in special cases such as Oka and it is to participate in multiple international peacekeeping and humanitarian operations under the auspices of the United Nations.

It is clear that this Parliament and this government must give the Canadian military a clearer statement of its mission for the 1990s and the 21st century than it has had heretofore. These four functions in our judgment need to be ranked in some order of priority with resources to match the priority assigned. If that were done, as the hon. member for Charlesbourg said earlier today, we would then have a clearer idea of what kind of commitment Canada could then make at any given time to an international peacekeeping possibility in different situations.

The third question I have posed is: Should Canada continue to play a role in the current United Nations peacekeeping operations in the former Yugoslavia? This has probably been the focus of almost 50 to 60 per cent of what has been said here today.

Those who advocate withdrawal seem to do so for several reasons. They argue that the political situation in the Balkans is insoluble other than by massive military intervention or dictatorial means which Canada cannot support. Others argue that the cumulative costs which have never been fully presented to the Canadian people are too high. They argue that if the Canadian people themselves were to be fully consulted on the question of making a commitment to stay versus preparing to withdraw, then a majority of their constituents might say prepare to withdraw.

Those who advocate a continuing role do so on the following grounds.

First, the conflict in the Balkans has erupted into broader international conflicts in the past and could do so again if not contained.

Second, any weakening of Canada's resolve in Croatia or Bosnia will weaken the resolve of other peacekeeping partners and further encourage the belligerents. I think this was the argument made by the member for Labrador.

Third, I think this is the most powerful argument that has been made for a continuing role. Humanitarian concern for the suffering of hundreds of thousands of people, many of them women and children, demands an international response and a Canadian response no matter how effective or ineffective that response may appear to be. This position was eloquently argued at the very beginning of this debate by the leader of the opposition.

As I sat here listening to these various arguments I have tried to put ourselves a little bit in the government's shoes and tried to ascertain whether there is any reasonable middle ground between a commitment to stay and preparing to withdraw. If there is it would appear to me to be this.

First, Canada should insist on a better command and support structure for the peacekeeping initiative in the former Yugoslavia as a condition for remaining. This is something to be negotiated with the United Nations and not with the belligerents.

Second, Canada should define, perhaps at the conference that several members have mentioned, certain modest expectations for its continued participation in the former Yugoslavia such as

the securing of some sort of enforceable agreement in Bosnia however frail by the end of the year.

Third, Canada should consider withdrawal only as a measure of last resort if these first objectives could not be obtained. It is my hope that these modest observations may be of some help to the government in framing a general policy on Canada's future peacekeeping role and in arriving at a particular policy with respect to our continued involvement in the former Yugoslavia.