Debates of Jan. 27th, 1994

Business Of The House

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, as provided for in the Standing Orders, I would ask the Leader of the Government in the House to tell us what the business of the House will be for the rest of the week and next week.

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, today we will continue with debate on the Address in Reply to the Speech from the Throne. As we know the House will sit until ten o'clock this evening. There will also be a continuation of the throne speech debate tomorrow.

If there is to be a vote on the motion, the vote will take place if necessary at 6 p.m. this coming Tuesday. On Monday the House will be asked to consider the motion of the Minister of Human Resources Development to establish the timeframe for a study by a committee of social programs. This motion and the text of it will be on the Notice Paper this evening. On Tuesday we will have a special pre-budget debate to enable members to state their views on what should be in the forthcoming budget.

On Wednesday, depending on the extent of our consultations with other parties on this matter, we could debate a motion on parliamentary reform.

The House resumed consideration of the motion for an address to His Excellency the Governor General in reply to his Speech at the opening of the session.

Speech From The Throne

[Derek Wells, Liberal, South Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I congratulate you on your election to the chair. I noted in your opening remarks that you quoted Disraeli. I know your comments reflect the feeling of many new members present in the House.

I know we all have the best of intentions and I hope that together with your guidance, Mr. Speaker, we will be successful in restoring dignity and respect to both politics and politicians. I am also mindful of your advice that we must remember we are not here because of personal merit, although that surely is a factor, but because free men and women have faith in us and in the principles we put forward during the election campaign. I appreciate those comments.

[The Speaker]

Order. Would hon. members please take their discussions behind the curtains.

Is this the hon. member's maiden speech?

[Derek Wells, Liberal, South Shore, NS]

Yes.

[The Speaker]

I wish you well in it.

[Derek Wells, Liberal, South Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I hope all members will remember your comments. The reality is that we must all perform to the best of our ability and work toward restoring respect and dignity or, come next election, there will be another record number of new members sitting in this Chamber.

I congratulate all members on their election to the House. I am sure it is for them, as it is for me, an honour and a privilege to represent their constituents and bring their concerns forward to this assembly. I look forward to working closely and co-operatively with all members, regardless of party affiliation, during the next four years.

I thank the people of South Shore, Nova Scotia, for putting their trust and faith in me on October 25. My riding, as were many others across Canada, was represented by another party for many years prior to the past election. In fact the last Liberal to represent the South Shore in Parliament was the late Robert Winters. He last served South Shore in 1957.

I do not purport to be another Robert Winters, but I can promise the people of the South Shore that I will represent each and every one of them to the best of my ability. I will fulfil my commitments to them as they were stated over the long and very arduous nomination process and election campaign.

The riding of South Shore is one of the great coastal ridings of Canada. It is presently the home of the largest fishing constituency in all of Canada. In 1992 there were approximately 5,000 active fishermen and 126 licensed processing plants in my riding alone. The value of the annual catch is close to $200 million per year, for a market value of approximately $375 million.

In my constituency there are three counties, all of which have resource based economies. Shelburne County is the fishing capital of Canada. Queens County is known as the forestry capital of Canada, and Lunenburg County is known as the Christmas tree capital of Canada. One could say that the South Shore is the capital capital of Canada with all those capitals.

My riding extends from the community of Hubbards in the east to Charlesville 150 miles to the west. It extends 50 miles inland from the Atlantic Ocean to the communities of New Ross and New Germany in Lunenburg County, Caledonia and Greenfield in Queens County, and to Upper Ohio in Shelburne County. Its bays contain thousands of islands from East Ironbound and Tancook in the east to Seal Island and Cape Sable Island in the west.

The historic towns of Lunenburg, Mahone Bay, Bridgewater, Liverpool, Shelburne, Lockeport and Clark's Harbour are all located on the South Shore, as are many quaint and beautiful villages such as my home of Chester and other communities such as Blandford, New Ross, Riverport, Port Mouton, East Green Harbour and Barrington Passage. I could go on and on. I would like to name them all but I understand I am limited in time.

I still remember the Friday morning 10 days before the past election when the Prime Minister visited historic Lunenburg, home of the Bluenose, the Bounty and the Fisheries Museum of the Atlantic. This was a proud occasion for the people of the South Shore, one which I am sure left many people touched by his honesty and humanity.

It goes without saying, as we hear the names of these historic towns and villages, that tourism plays a major part in the lives of my constituents. We must continue to promote tourism as it is serving to revitalize communities devastated by the downturn in the fishery. It generates more than $100 million annually and provides employment for thousands of people on the South Shore. It is an industry that can and will play a leading role in the economic recovery we are all anticipating.

As I said earlier, the economy of my riding is primarily resource based. My constituents are affected by and concerned with the downturn in the fishery, the challenges in the forestry sector, particularly those of the pulp and paper industry, and the difficulties and uncertainty being experienced in the agricultural sector.

I for one believe the fishery can be prosperous once again if we properly manage the change. I have faith, and I know that faith is not misplaced, in the present minister of fisheries. I applaud his willingness to listen and his courage to act. Once we set aside special interests in favour of community interests practical solutions will be found.

One of the first steps we must take is to curtail foreign overfishing on the nose and tail of the Grand Banks. I must say I was encouraged by the comments of Reformers earlier today when they said that they would be supporting the Liberal Party on that initiative.

With regard to the forestry sector I have every faith in the Minister of Natural Resources with whom I, along with my constituent, Mr. Rick Lord, president of the Canadian Christmas Tree Growers' Association, and the Prime Minister, presented a Christmas tree to the Children's Hospital of Eastern Ontario.

The minister is aware of the size and scope of forestry in my riding. There are 270 established companies within our forestry sector which employ directly or indirectly upwards of 5,000 people. The annual value of all forest exports from my riding alone is in excess of $150 million. The minister is no doubt aware of how important the extension of the federal-provincial forestry agreements are to the future viability and management of this resource.

Not everybody in the riding has resource based employment. There are many who are looking forward to the benefits that can be realized from the Canada infrastructure works program implemented recently by the Minister responsible for Infrastructure. The introduction of this program was well accepted by all 12 municipal units in my riding. Not only is this initiative necessary but its premise that all levels of government in Canada can work together toward a common and beneficial end is sound. I sincerely hope that this is a positive indication of things to come.

There are many issues and concerns to be discussed. Thankfully we have four years in which to deal with them. However there is one further concern I would like to bring forward. It is one that I addressed continually throughout my nomination and election campaign. My concern is for the future of the youth in this country.

In addition to my responsibilities to my family and my business, over the years I have focused some of my energies on the young people in the communities of the South Shore. I have enjoyed working with young people and I have been repaid many times over through my experiences with them.

It saddens me to see so many worried and troubled young men and women in our society today. They have become alienated as their concerns were overshadowed by those of our generation. Their lives are difficult, their futures insecure. We should all be aware of the fact that the changing times, the state of the economy and the seemingly bleak prospects for their future are taking their toll.

Their hours are not always easy to fill. There are few of the simplistic pastimes that most of us remember from our youth. I know I never had to compete with the televised or computer generated games that assail the youth of today. None of my distractions came from drugs, alcohol or idleness.

Today the need for continued education is greater than in the past. Jobs are fewer and costs are higher. It is not easy for them even to begin to compete in the global marketplace.

Where do they find hope? They find hope in our faith in them. The Liberal Party demonstrated its belief in the young people of Canada during the election campaign by introducing the concept of the Canadian youth corps and the Canadian apprenticeship program. I was pleased to hear a reconfirmation of that former initiative in the speech from the throne.

The youth corps program will afford our youth the opportunity to make a positive contribution to the country while building self- esteem, developing skills and gaining experience. The apprenticeship program will give young people the skills needed to succeed in growing economic sectors, will forge strong schools to work linkages and will result in making apprenticeship a valid career option.

In closing, I would like to note that I am fully committed to the program outlined in "Creating Opportunities". The government of which I am proud to be a part was elected to implement this program and the speech from the throne reflects its intention to do so.

[Jim Silye, Reform, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the member for South Shore. First of all I congratulate him on his maiden speech.

With respect to the resource industry of which the hon. member said his riding has a cross-section, specifically in forestry, he said there were over 270 companies employing 5,000 people. When these companies strip the trees, are they forced to replace them at intermittent stages during their contract? Or, is it like some other companies in Canada that are allowed to wait until the last days of their contract and walk away from that commitment?

[Derek Wells, Liberal, South Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, a lot of reforestation is taking place in my province and in my riding. As we discuss this matter with different people in the forest industry there is a difference of opinion sometimes as to whether or not we should let natural forces come into play. If the cutting is done properly and we leave enough, nature will run its course and natural regeneration will occur.

The supply of wood and wood fibre is sufficient. It is perhaps sufficient for another major industry. Certainly at this point in time our forests are relatively well managed. There is no major concern with wood supply or wood fibre at this time.

[Ron MacDonald, Liberal, Dartmouth, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I congratulate the member for South Shore. Indeed it is a pleasure to have him as a colleague from Nova Scotia in the House of Commons. I have known the member for many years. The area has made a very wise choice in sending him here to be its representative in the House of Commons. On a personal note, I am very pleased

that a friend of mine has pursued this noble occupation of being a member of Parliament from South Shore.

The member comes from one of the most beautiful parts of Canada. Perhaps he can let people who are watching this debate and people who are in the House know about some of the beautiful spots and tourism events in his riding. Tourism is a major industry in the riding of South Shore. Perhaps he could elucidate for us some events that take place there so that some of the people in the House and the people watching can take him up on an offer and maybe we will see them there in the summer.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

I do not doubt that the member's riding is as described by the hon. member for Dartmouth. I would be very surprised if the member for South Shore, in the short time left of approximately one minute, could do justice to the beauty of his riding, as any other member would find almost impossible to do. I am sure we will get a valiant effort from the member for South Shore in the little time he has left.

[Derek Wells, Liberal, South Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I guess the greatest risk when we try to do answer a question in one minute is to be concerned about what we might leave out.

When we run summer election campaigns we learn that in my riding which is 150 miles long and 50 miles wide there are many exhibitions from the big exhibition in Bridgewater, to the fisheries exhibition in Lunenburg, to the exhibitions in Barrington and Shelburne, to the folk festival in Lunenburg, to Chester Race Week. Again, with the limited time, I have left many out.

During the summer I will not say South Shore is the tourism capital of Nova Scotia because I notice other members here who may take objection to that. Certainly tourism and all the events that take place are big draws and more and more are being developed all the time.

I thank the member for the question. I hope over time I can expand more fully on some of the major events that place in my riding.

[Roseanne Skoke, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Mr. Speaker, the people of Central Nova have authorized me to represent their many diverse and urgent interests in the House of Commons; to speak on their behalf with courage, determination and integrity; to ensure that their families are protected and safeguarded; to ensure that their right to work with pride and dignity is restored; and to ensure that our country remains united, independent and free.

My people in Central Nova, by electing me as their member of Parliament, have bestowed the highest honour upon me and have placed me in a position of trust. I pray that God will grant me the wisdom, knowledge and understanding to fulfil my duties in this office with justice, integrity and equity.

The people of Central Nova must not be underestimated. They know the issues. They see the problems. They feel the heartache, pain and anxiety. They have experienced firsthand the devastating social and economic effects of government policies and decisions. Many are unemployed. Others are what I refer to as the working poor.

The speech from the throne and the initiatives and programs outlined therein offers hope to the people of Central Nova. Already initiatives are being implemented in my riding, such as the municipal infrastructure program. Hope has been offered for employment and hope for new opportunity. This is as a result of the speech from the throne and the initiatives set out in the red book, Creating Opportunity.

Let us look at the unemployment situation. Every day jobs are lost or being threatened. Unemployment, job security and job creation must be and will be the priority issues for this government. Unemployment is the scourge of mankind. It robs the person of his or her dignity. It has a crippling effect on the entire community and our nation as a whole.

The causal effects of unemployment can lead to the breakdown of the family unit, leads to family violence, suicide, alcohol and drug dependency, increased crime, theft, insurmountable financial and emotional problems, and dependency on social assistance. The effects are unlimited. The price society and the taxpayer pays in the cost of support services for family breakdown is also immeasurable. The price the family pays is immeasurable.

I am proud to represent Central Nova. Central Nova is known as the industrial heartland of Nova Scotia and rightly so because the industrial revolution in Canada began in my home town of Stellarton. It came about with the advent of steam power and the usage of the 40-foot thick Foord seam of coal in Stellarton. The steam power was applied to industry in Central Nova including shipbuilding, steel making, sawmills and railroads.

The first steel railroad ever built in Canada was built in Stellarton and is still in existence today.

New Glasgow, a town in Central Nova, built the first iron sailing ship ever made in Canada.

The development of the Pictou coal deposit created an industrial complex in the town of New Glasgow which in 1883 broadened into the opening of the first steel making plant in Canada. Today we have Maritime Steel and our New Glasgow foundry.

The first steel ever successfully made in Canada was produced in the town of Trenton. Since then, the town of Trenton in Central Nova has been referred to as the birthplace of steel in Canada. It was known as Trenton Works at one time and manufactured railway rolling stock. The plant is still in existence today but it is known as Lavalin.

Westville, a coal mining town, was incorporated September 1884 and became known as the friendly town. Coal mining began in 1865. As the town of Westville celebrates its centennial of incorporation this very year, once again it will look to its coal mines for another resource; that of geothermal energy extracted from the warm waters of flooded, abandoned mine workings.

The town of Pictou is an historic town in Central Nova that overlooks the best harbour in northern Nova Scotia. The Scottish immigration to Pictou began in July 1773 and the early economic base centred around the sea. Shipbuilding was and still is a very prominent part of Pictou's economy with our Pictou Industries.

The municipality of Pictou consists of geographically Pictou east and Pictou west. Located therein is the north shore which has a multi-purpose fishing industry and agriculture.

We have the eastern shore fishing industry in the county of Halifax. The eastern shore is an unscathed environment with a beautiful coastline and the most wonderful people you would ever want to meet.

Central Nova is now facing a fishing industry crisis that has devastating effects on our people and their livelihood both on the north shore and eastern shore of Central Nova.

We have the First Nation Micmac community of Pictou Landing with a population of approximately 420 band members living on about 250 acres of land. Although the area around Pictou has been settled by the Micmac for thousands of years, official status of reserve land has only been granted for a little more than 100 years. Education and high unemployment are issues of concern and our Micmac nation is open to the concept of self-government.

It is interesting to note that Central Nova, the birthplace of the industrial revolution of Nova Scotia, must now prepare for the technical revolution. It is imperative that we be strong in science and technology. To survive this technological revolution our people must be educated, for part of the oppression of our people lies in the failure to provide quality education and literacy skills for our youth and labour force.

Although education is a matter of provincial jurisdiction, I wish to remind the federal government that I feel that it has a major role to play in initiating the necessary changes to provide quality education for the common good of our country.

Our youth are without jobs. Our youth are without hope. The youth apprenticeship training program and youth services corps are two government programs that will provide hope.

In my 17 years of practice as a litigation lawyer, I have experienced first-hand the oppression, manipulation and abuse of many people arising from the abuse of power, abuse of authority and abuse of the process within the systems of government.

The system of government is not working as it should. The three branches of government, namely the legislative, the executive and the judicial, require reform to ensure justice and equity to all Canadians.

With respect to the legislative branch of government, it is time that we as legislators put responsibility and morality back into the law. Justice, law and morality go hand in hand. They are inseparable.

With respect to the executive branch of government that administers the law, it is time to diminish the authority, power and discretion of the bureaucracy and make it more accountable for its decisions and attitudes that affect our individual Canadians.

With respect to the judicial branch of government that interprets and enforces the law, it is time that perhaps consideration be given to electing our judiciary. The people must live with the decisions of the courts and therefore it is time that the people elect the decision makers.

In conclusion, the greatest investment we can make as a nation is in our own people. Our people are the human resource required to make it all work. The family unit is the basic institution of life and the solid foundation upon which our forefathers built this great nation. The protection of families, family life and family values must be a priority with this government. The family is where life begins. Life begins from the moment of conception and continues until natural death. The family is where our purpose to live, to work and to prosper is nurtured.

The conventional terms of debate in matters of political, economic and legal issues tend to focus on individual rights and the state, not the family. This is unfortunate and must change, for the family is the most important reality in our lives.

Remember, Canada was made for families. Families were not made for Canada. When families prosper so too will Canada prosper. When families are strong so too will our country Canada be strong.

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I wish to congratulate the hon. member from Central Nova for her excellent speech which I found particularly touching and

humane. It is not often that we see in this House such a humane approach. But I would like to ask the hon. member a question since she is from a resource based area, the riding of Central Nova. Given the way she talked about her riding, it seems that its economic activity is mainly dominated by fisheries and agriculture.

I would like the hon. member to explain how she can feel comfortable in a party like the Liberal Party of Canada, a party that during the GATT multilateral negotiations abandoned one of the pillars of Canadian agriculture, especially the dairy sector so important in the riding of Central Nova. How can she feel comfortable in a party that has sacrificed a good part of the safety net, at least for the Canadian dairy industry, and which is also known for its negligence and its inability to deal with Atlantic fisheries?

[Roseanne Skoke, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to assure the hon. member that I feel very at ease and very much at home with the Liberal Party. I think the principles and the philosophy of the Liberal Party certainly augurs very well with respect to our principles of justice, fairness and equity for all Canadians. I chose the Liberal Party for those reasons.

With respect to the issues of agriculture and fisheries, I am very confident that our party will do what is best, within its powers and within the limits it has available, to ensure that the dairy farmers, and particularly our fisheries, will be taken care of.

I am also pleased to have the opportunity to work with the hon. ministers in ensuring that my constituents, with respect to those issues, will be taken care of.

[Randy White, Reform, Fraser Valley West, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I too would like to congratulate the hon. member for Central Nova. Having been raised in Nova Scotia myself, I have travelled the areas that she was elected in many, many times. It is indeed beautiful.

The member has spoken very earnestly and sincerely about unemployment in her area, but unemployment has been a problem in the maritimes and in her area for decades. I believe that the infrastructure program is once again more taxes-federally, provincially and municipally-on the constituents in that area. The infrastructure alone will not cure the problem of unemployment in that area and training in itself will not help the situation either, or at least will not cure it.

I am wondering if the member would perhaps suggest a new industry that could perhaps turn the tide in that area. Other than infrastructure and training, what new changes would help the people in Central Nova?

[Roseanne Skoke, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question.

Throughout my speech I talked about the oppression of our people. It is correct for the member to say that the people in the maritimes and the Atlantic provinces have been unemployed more so than in other parts of the country. In my opinion there has been a form of oppression.

I think the answer to unemployment is quality education. Although I know education is a matter of provincial jurisdiction, I feel that the federal government has a responsibility under industry, science, technology and trade, and certainly for the common good of all Canadians, to intervene with respect to the issue of education.

Perhaps our youth and those people in the labour force, be it the fishery or whatever, who may have to look for new employment, are not properly educated in the basics of reading, writing and literacy skills.

One way to oppress people is to ensure that they cannot read or write. Then they cannot understand what is going on or that they are going to continue being manipulated and deceived by hidden agendas.

I feel that the answer and what this government should be looking at is education. It does not cost extra money to educate your people. What it takes is ingenuity and the basics. I think it is time we go back to the basics in our education system.

[Jim Abbott, Reform, Kootenay East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am proud today to stand as the member for Kootenay East constituency.

In the October 25 election the constituents expressed their confidence in the agenda that I and the Reform Party were to bring to the Parliament of Canada. The topic of my speech today is really directed to my constituents. My topic would be entitled demand less.

It is critical in my constituency, indeed in Canada, that citizens give clear direction to their politicians at all levels of government.

Political decisions are not made in a vacuum. Decisions to spend money and deliver services and social entitlements to citizens are made as ordinary citizens make their demands known to the politicians. Any politician who wants to get elected or re-elected must respond to those demands and so I say to my constituents we must demand less.

Following my election I made two immediate activities my priority. One was to open lines of communication and accessibility to my constituents. The second was to grapple with the issues surrounding mining-especially coal mining-and how it relates to my constituents in the Elk Valley.

The Elk Valley which is east of Cranbrook is a magnificent area of my constituency with beautiful mountains, the Snow Valley ski area in Fernie and the districts of Sparwood and Elkford. There is no area in Canada which has been more

adversely affected by ill advised taxation, blatant tax revenue grabs and overregulation than the Elk Valley.

The area suffers with a 30 per cent unemployment rate. In the last couple of years there have been significant mine failures with as a many as 2,000 people out of work severely depressing the commercial community.

It was interesting that in a recent news article in the Kimberley Bulletin a headline read: Cominco irked at city tax rate''. The complaint of the mining company was that the major industrial tax rate in Kimberley is 69 per cent higher than the tax rate in Cranbrook. In justifying the position of the city, the mayor of Kimberley agreed that Cominco taxes are high but said the tax rate is justified. He said the mining company has had it easy on taxes because it did not start paying taxes until 1968 when Cominco was incorporated into the city limits. The mayor said:That is when Cominco started shutting down plants and laying off people''.

I am not criticizing the mayor of Kimberley for his comments. I simply cite that quotation as an accurate representation of what happens when an industry is taxed. The fact is that when taxes go up then jobs and an industry decrease.

Capital for mining is fleeing Canada. The country of Chile is one of the greatest beneficiaries of this flight. It has an effective tax rate of 15 per cent. The countries of Mexico and Papua New Guinea have a mining tax rate of 35 per cent. The Philippines and even the United States has a tax rate on mining companies of 38 per cent whereas the mining companies in the province of British Columbia suffer under a mining income tax rate of 50 per cent. That is hard rock mining.

In coal mining, although it is hard to believe, in four years between 1987 and 1991 the B.C. coal industry paid $454 million dollars, almost half a billion dollars, in direct taxes while net returns to the industry believe it or not were only $8 million.

Citizens must demand less from the federal government, provincial government, regional district, cities, towns and even the school boards because I say that taxes kill jobs.

For example property tax rates charged on coal mines are three times higher than residential rates. These taxes pay for municipal services. The ministry of environment of the province of B.C. has made a decision to require the East Kootenay region to implement a solid waste disposal program. To put solid waste disposal into normal terms, it is simply people's garbage.

The annual cost of this program is $3.2 million. The share of the costs of Sparwood and Elkford combined would be about $940,000 annually. The coal mines in these municipalities would pay $717,000 of that $900,000.

Yesterday Fording Coal announced that following a 4 per cent decrease in the selling price of their top grade of coal in Japan in 1993, they are suffering a further 8 per cent decrease in their selling price in 1994. This solid waste management program as desirable as it may be will remove an additional $700,000 from coal producers' cash flow while prices in the world market are dropping.

Citizens must demand less or we will continue to see bankruptcies, job losses and potentially the total disintegration of B.C.'s export coal industry.

The problem is not confined to the East Kootenay area. The coal must move from the mines in my constituency to port.

We have a world class facility with our transportation services to the coast. The coal car repair shop in Golden is state of the art. The railway company and its workers just as with the workers in the coal mining producing plants are going flat out to be efficient. However, we are going to tax them out of existence at every level of taxation.

In 1981 the selling price of coal was around $67 a tonne. In 1991 it had dropped to $60 a tonne. However, in real dollars, that is converting 1981 dollars into 1991 dollars, the $67 a tonne revenue in 1981 became $35 a tonne revenue in 1991.

The companies responded and the workers and the companies have driven their operating expense from $41 a tonne to $22 a tonne or, again in real costs, to $13 a tonne.

In other words operating costs have been reduced through diligence and hard work and significant capital investment driven down by 70 per cent since 1981. The workers in the coal industry and transportation have shown extreme dedication in this quest to reduce costs while at the same time demands for additional services and social entitlements by Canadians has pushed politicians to increase taxes and outright revenue grabs at an alarming rate.

As weird as it may seem some of the bridges on the rail line over the canyons and through the mountains between the Elk Valley and Roberts Bank attract tax levels of tens of thousands of dollars each. One bridge classified as an improvement costs the railway over $100,000 annually in taxes simply because the canyon exists and we want to get the coal over the canyon.

At the federal level fuel taxes on diesel use by the railway stand in the way of our coal producers in British Columbia being able to ship clean burning coal from B.C. to Ontario. The fuel taxes on the diesel used by the railway locomotives are for the purpose of building highways. This is totally unrealistic and unfair in the application of taxes. It is taxing one method of transportation to subsidize another.

On the coast at the Roberts Bank terminal, charges to put coal into the ships for export have tripled over the last ten years and the Vancouver port authority, a part of the federal government, has direct responsibility for the fees which are continuing to rise at a rate of 10 per cent a year. This is at a time when coal prices are crashing.

Yet I read in the newspaper yesterday a headline which said: "Our finance minister says Canada can stand more tax". Canada cannot stand more tax. Taxes kill jobs.

If the Liberals wonder why western Canadians are uptight about the potential imposition of a carbon tax they need only look at the results of the national energy plan which was only a thinly disguised revenue grab from western Canada to central Canada. We still suffer from the residue.

Coal mines are subject to higher mineral taxes than hard rock mines in British Columbia. It is unclear but it appears as though this is simply a leftover from the bad old days of the era of the national energy plan that was imposed by the former Liberal government.

The fact is that our coal mines supply world markets and the Japanese steel industry will lose $3 billion U.S. in the current fiscal year. There is a continued oversupply of coking coal in the world market. That is world reality. We Canadians have to face reality and so again I say to my constituents that we Canadians must demand less service and entitlements from our politicians or we will tax our jobs out of existence.

I say to the trustees of the schools boards, the mayors and councillors of our towns and cities, the regional district directors, the MLAs Corky Evans and Jim Doyle and the hon. minister of mines Ann Edwards that we must be prepared to lead cutting government costs so that we will not tax our jobs out of existence.

I challenge members of the House of Commons to follow the example shown by the Reform Party members and take a 10 per cent cut in their pay not because they are not earning it but clearly to show leadership by example. It is only by demanding less that we will have more jobs, more security and more future for ourselves and for our children.

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague from the Reform Party for his excellent speech, which contained views on taxation that I do not share but respect nonetheless. In fact, I would have a comment to make about the tax system and I would also like to ask a question.

From the moment the election campaign began and from the moment this House resumed sitting, I have been hearing members of the Reform Party refer to uniform cuts of 10, 12 or 15 per cent depending on the speaker, because it would seem to me that there is no party line where this matter is concerned. I wonder what the rationale is for requesting such drastic cuts across the board. I would like to know if the Reform Party could not suggest some other alternative like broadening the tax base to make the Canadian tax system fair again.

Let me explain. In 1991, the very rich, some of whom probably live in my hon. colleague's riding, were said to have paid tax at an actual rate of about 18 per cent, while the basic tax rate was 29 per cent. Other statistics show a flight of capital from very large Canadian corporations, which means that Canadian businesses-very large businesses, not the small and medium-sized or the very small ones, but the very large ones that turn a profit year in year out-are transferring their profits to some tax haven without paying a nickel in taxes in Canada. Yet, the same businesses transfer to Canada the losses they post abroad because they can get a tax deduction for those. I wonder if we could not recover billions in lost tax simply by broadening the tax base. I think that we are starting to get a clearer picture of where we are going in terms of the budget. There might be a way to get these businesses and these very rich taxpayers to pay their fair share, thus achieving the very objectives you have been talking about since this House resumed its business.

Clearly, Mr. Speaker, and I will end my comment on that, there is a need for effective spending control. The Auditor General of Canada did mention a certain laxness about the budget when he tabled his last report. But to suggest such drastic cuts, across the board, do you not think that this could affect the poorer taxpayers or the middle-income earners who are already overburdened by a tax system that has become unbearable, especially since 1984? I put the question to the hon. member.

[Jim Abbott, Reform, Kootenay East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the question because it gives me an opportunity to speak to some of the confusion that the member refers to.

There seems to be a lack of ability of being able to get hold of our documents from the election campaign. I would be very happy to provide them to any member in the House. We are not talking about uniform cuts of 10, 12 or 15 per cent. We are not talking about lateral cuts.

We are talking about selectively making sure that we have the ability to be able to fund exactly the people at the end of the member's question to which he was referring. They are the most disadvantaged within our society.

If we do not have the resources or the funds, truly it will be those who cannot take care of themselves who will be disadvantaged. Therefore we have a very specific program that I would be very happy to share.

Let us take a look at the overall principle that has been very clearly put out by other members of the Reform Party in this debate. It is that 25 cents out of every dollar put out by the government goes out as an interest payment for overspending we have already done. That money is gone. There is no way of recovering that money.

Even if we were to take all of the cost of running the government, fire every member of Parliament, let every civil servant go and shut down the entire government we would still not be able to balance the overspending by the government.

With respect to the members of the BQ, when the party is talking about protecting social programs, I suggest that they also give consideration to how they are going to protect the social programs unless they are going to be prepared to selectively make sure that people who have the most needs are protected.

[Lee Morrison, Reform, Swift Current—Maple Creek—Assiniboia, SK]

Mr. Speaker, a former member once told me that I would probably be making my maiden speech to an almost empty House. I did not believe him. This must be what it feels like to address an NDP election rally.

Mr. Speaker, I wish to begin by congratulating you on your appointment. I would also like to congratulate all hon. members for their election to this House. It is my earnest hope that in spite of the philosophical gulf that separates some of us that we will be able to sit down and reason together to address the problems, the almost overwhelming problems, that are facing us.

I want to sincerely thank the people who sent me here, the electors of Swift Current-Maple Creek-Assiniboia. I made only two election promises to them: to faithfully represent them and their views in this place; and to work with every means at my disposal toward the restoration of fiscal sanity in this country.

Swift Current-Maple Creek-Assiniboia is a western rural constituency. The majority of my constituents are people who take their living from the land: farmers, ranchers, coal miners and people who work in the oil patch, the sort of people who political, cultural and media elitists sometimes dismiss as rednecks. I have been called a redneck myself and it is a label I wear with considerable pride.

What is a redneck? A redneck is someone who does not belong to all the right clubs and who does not subscribe to trendy social and political doctrines. We rednecks strongly believe in the concept of public service, that governments, civil servants, politicians and political parties exist to serve the people and not the other way around. We believe that individual rights are sacred, that they supersede group rights, and moreover that you cannot protect and enhance the rights of some groups at the expense of other groups. Rights are indivisible.

We believe in the virtues of hard work and personal enterprise. We strongly believe that the producers of real wealth are entitled to keep a reasonable share of the fruits of their labours, that their standard of living should not be lower than that enjoyed by the multitudes of non-producers who the taxman requires them to carry on their backs.

Taxation in this country is so high that working people are beginning to have difficulty differentiating between taxmen and highwaymen.

We believe in the spirit of community service. It made our communities liveable long before the tentacles of central government began to strangle us a couple of generations ago. Neighbours helping neighbours.

We tend to speak the Queen's English without embellishment. Among my friends and neighbours even in this day and age it is not at all uncommon to hear such phrases as: "It's a deal," or: "That is none of your business".

I have staked out my philosophical position. I believe that it fairly represents the views of the people who sent me here. However, there are a few people, a very few, in Swift Current-Maple Creek-Assiniboia who are as politically correct as any hon. member might wish and I shall never forget that it is my duty to represent them, too.

The future of our country appears more bleak now than at any time since the second world war. The former government has left us a legacy of debt, deficit and national disunity for which the Progressive Conservative Party has been consigned to well-deserved oblivion. However, we must never forget nor allow the government to forget that seeds of these problems were sown by Liberal governments in the 1970s. The PCs watered and fertilized these weeds but they did not plant them.

Therefore when I realized that we face 177 Liberal members my heart sunk a little but then I remembered that more than half of them are like me. They are new to this place and they bear no responsibility for the disastrous Trudeau years. I optimistically hope and expect that many of them will have fresh new ideas. They did not write the speech from the throne which is remarkably short on new ideas and contains no serious initiatives to control the deficit. Perhaps that shortcoming will be rectified when the government presents its first budget.

If the government does make a serious effort to kill the deficit monster, I pray that the weapon of choice will be a knife to cut costs and not a gun to extract more taxes from the people.

In Swift Current-Maple Creek-Assiniboia with our farm economy flat on its back we are very dependent on fuel production for our economic survival. We have several small oil fields, some natural gas and one of the biggest coal mines in the country.

For more than three years federal politicians, including some members of the present government, have been musing about the imposition of a carbon tax, a tax on fossil fuels which would be cleverly disguised as an environmental levy.

An independent study commissioned by the government last year indicated that a carbon tax high enough to effectively inhibit the use of fossil fuels would adversely affect almost every measure of economic activity, including the gross domestic product, the level of industrial investment, consumer price index and the unemployment rate.

All we need in Saskatchewan is another fuel tax for our hard-pressed farmers. Thanks to taxes, including a 12 cent per litre federal tax, fuel produced and refined in Regina can already be purchased in Montana 50 miles from my home for two-thirds of what I pay.

I mentioned our coal mine. Its entire annual output of 3.6 million tonnes is sold to one customer, the Poplar River Power Station at Coronach. A tax on that coal would increase the consumer cost of electricity not only in Swift Current-Maple Creek-Assiniboia but throughout Saskatchewan.

Meanwhile electricity costs in Quebec with mostly hydroelectric generation and in Ontario with its massive nuclear stations would be scarcely affected. It is the national energy policy all over again but wrapped in the fuzzy green blanket of environmentalism.

I am not day-dreaming. I may be having a nightmare, but I am not day-dreaming. The rumours of an impending carbon tax are persistent and they are consistent with statements made by the hon. Minister of Finance when he sat on this side of the House.

The second energy industry nightmare, and this one applies more to Alberta than to my constituency, is that government will move to restrict natural gas exports, thus strangling the most vibrant sector of the Canadian economy but creating a market surplus and forcing down prices in Ontario and Quebec where the votes are.

In closing I wish to reiterate my party's position that the path to effective deficit reduction is through spending cuts, not through tax increases. During the election campaign Reform made two dozen deficit reduction proposals. No doubt many of them would be ideologically unacceptable to the government but surely not all of them.

Last October 25 the people of Canada clearly demanded a change of direction. The government has a clear mandate. It has an obligation to take action. If it follows the course of least resistance the bumbling course of the last 20 years and this country with all of its enormous promise and potential finally gurgles down the drain, this government will never be forgiven-never.

[John Bryden, Liberal, Hamilton—Wentworth, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I quite enjoyed the hon member's remarks. They help me indeed in understanding a lot of things. I must say also though that I am one of those new Liberal MPs the hon. member mentioned in his remarks. There are some things I do not quite understand and I hope the hon. member can clarify them for me.

I have heard consistently through the day from other hon. members of the Reform Party that the Reform Party appears to be universally against higher taxes. Indeed the proposal, as the hon. member has said, is to lower taxes. Juxtaposed against this consistent theme is the idea that MPs should take a 10 per cent salary cut. I am quite interested by this juxtaposition.

My question therefore for the hon. member is when we put these two things together, am I to understand that the hon. member and the party of which he is a member would support a 10 per cent tax surcharge on all those earning $60,000 or more?

[Lee Morrison, Reform, Swift Current—Maple Creek—Assiniboia, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question. The answer to the question is no, of course not. We do not advocate or agree with the increase of taxes of any kind on anybody.

When I talk about members of this House taking a 10 per cent, and I am one of them, we are doing this as a gesture to set an example to this government to cut spending. This is what I have been saying over and over again. Cut spending.

[John Harvard, Liberal, Winnipeg—St. James, MB]

Tell the truth, not all of you.