Debates of Oct. 28th, 1994

Crtc

[Randy White, Reform, Fraser Valley West, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the Globe and Mail reports this morning that the only reason the minister of heritage responded to the inappropriateness of his blatant intervention into the CRTC application was that a member of the Greek community in Montreal wrote to complain after discovering the intervention letter in the file.

Yesterday, when my staff went through that file, there was a letter from Mr. Mike Pattichis complaining strongly about the application but there was no letter from the minister of heritage, nor was there the other letter from Mr. Pattichis which we suspect is the original complaint.

I would like to ask the Minister of Canadian Heritage where those letters are and why they are missing from the file.

[Michel Dupuy, Liberal, Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, our colleagues from the Reform seem to have a lot of information, lots of files and a lot of letters.

What I have done is to put on the record of this House the letters I wrote.

[Randy White, Reform, Fraser Valley West, BC]

Make no mistake about that, Mr. Speaker. We do have some information but we are trying to get a little more.

One wonders how much Canadian people are being duped in this exercise, because staff at the CRTC assured us that this information is all public. The file is at the CRTC, if the minister would like to know. Now we find the very information Canadians require has been removed at the last minute.

What I would like to know is who removed the letters, at whose direction, when they were removed and why.

[Michel Dupuy, Liberal, Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, these are allegations which are to my knowledge unfounded.

Yesterday I was asked whether I could also table the letter dated September 20. It was not written by me. I said I would consult with the person who produced this letter, and I said I would table it if the author of the letter was in agreement with it.

Unemployment Insurance

[Réginald Bélair, Liberal, Cochrane—Superior, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Secretary of State for Parliamentary Affairs.

Statistics Canada has reported a significant decrease in the number of people receiving unemployment insurance in the last eight months, that is 12.3 per cent less than in 1993.

Could the Secretary of State explain this rapid change and its consequences for the unemployment insurance fund?

[Alfonso Gagliano, Liberal, Secretary of State (Parliamentary Affairs) and Deputy Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, for the benefit of the hon. member and all my colleagues in the House, I will say that the decrease in the number of people receiving unemployment insurance is due to a sharp upturn in the economy.

We have created 340,000 jobs since we came to office; 90 per cent of these jobs are full-time, young people have filled more than 50 per cent of the jobs created in September and 147,000 of the new jobs went to women. This is the result of all the measures taken by our government: infrastructures, Youth Service, initiatives, and statistics. This will ease the implementation of our reform of social programs.

Regional Development

[René Canuel, Bloc, Matapédia—Matane, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs.

The federal government has announced the establishment of 13 regional offices to provide one-stop service to small- and medium-sized businesses.

The federal government has also confirmed its plans to interfere further with regional development, in spite of the consensus in Quebec for full powers to the province in this area.

Does the minister recognize that, after dismissing Quebec's claims over manpower training, Ottawa is about to do the very same thing with regional development? Is that the kind of co-operation we were promised by Ottawa?

[Marcel Massé, Liberal, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the federal government is always prepared to co-operate with any province, including Quebec, on any issue in which we have common interests.

In the case in point, the Federal Office of Regional Development already has 13 offices in Quebec; they have been there for over 20 years. No new office is being established. These offices already exist. What the minister responsible for the FORDQ did announce was the provision of an additional service to small- and medium-sized businesses, to improve operations through centralization of information on federal programs in existing offices of the FORDQ.

[René Canuel, Bloc, Matapédia—Matane, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my supplementary question is for the same minister.

Does the minister recognize that his repeated attempts to increase federal government visibility in the regions only increases duplication between Ottawa and Quebec and that, in the end, it is the taxpayers and the regions that pay the shot?

[Marcel Massé, Liberal, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada]

Mr. Speaker, we are the ones who have just put in place a system to reduce duplication and overlap. We already have eight provinces on board. Unfortunately, Quebec did not see fit to join us in reducing duplication and overlap.

In the case in point, the information we will be providing small business is information on federal programs, including international marketing insights that can only be gained through the federal government. That is why we plan to use these 13 existing offices to provide extra services to businesses.

Ethics

[Jim Silye, Reform, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister.

There is a clear discrepancy between what he said in the House yesterday and what he is saying today with respect to the ethics counsellor, meeting with the ethics counsellor and checking with him.

Another discrepancy is that yesterday the ethics commissioner said that there were no explicit guidelines for cabinet ministers dealing with government agencies. Has the Prime Minister not given the ethics commissioner a copy of the interest guidelines? I have a copy here if he wants an extra one.

[The Speaker]

Once again I appeal to colleagues not to use any props.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, ministers have received books on guidelines. I have explained earlier that in the case of communications with the judiciary it is very clear they cannot do that directly by telephone or by letter.

They have to call, if they have a problem, the Minister of Justice who is the only one authorized to do something if the Minister of Justice decides to do something.

In the case of quasi-judicial bodies that relate to the affairs of the government, the affairs of the members of Parliament and so on, the guidelines were not clear to my satisfaction.

I have asked the Privy Council Office to prepare new guidelines in consultation with Mr. Wilson. I hope these guidelines will be ready very soon, and I will instruct ministers to follow them very clearly.

[Jim Silye, Reform, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I hope I can clear this matter up.

The object of this code is to enhance public confidence in the integrity of public office holders which includes ministers of the crown, I might add. It further states under preferential treatment that "public office holders shall not step out of their official roles to assist private entities or persons in their dealings with the government where this would result in preferential treatment to any person". If that is not clear, I do not know what is.

In light of this revelation, would the Prime Minister admit that a serious breach of conduct occurred, just as bad as Mr. Charest and just as bad as Mr. Munro went through and therefore he has no choice but to restore integrity-

[The Speaker]

As a general rule we do not refer to ourselves by our names in question period.

[Jim Silye, Reform, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I will put my question. In light of this revelation, Mr. Prime Minister, would you admit that a serious-

[Some hon. members]

Order.

[The Speaker]

Would the hon. member please put the question.

[Jim Silye, Reform, Calgary Centre, AB]

Would the Prime Minister admit that a serious breach of conduct has occurred and therefore he has no choice but to restore integrity to the office of the minister of heritage and ask for his resignation?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I have explained very clearly the rules that apply to communications with the judiciary. I explained clearly that my conclusion is that we have to make some clear directives in relation to the quasi-judiciary bodies that exist in the government.

Of course all these bodies report through ministers to Parliament. That is one of the problems. Ministers receive communications from members of Parliament. Every member of Parliament is obliged as a member of Parliament to listen to representations from constituents and ask that they be treated fairly. That is the work of every member of Parliament and ministers are members of Parliament.

We have to make the situation clear as to how a minister can be a member of Parliament at the same time. We cannot deprive

the constituencies that have ministers or the prime minister of the responsibility of public office holders to deliver the services that a member of Parliament is expected to do for his or her constituents.

Research And Development

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Industry. Quebec has 30 federal research establishments that employ 2,533 workers, accounting for 11 per cent of jobs in federal facilities of this type in Canada, while the Chalk River centre in Ontario alone has 2,000 employees.

Does the Minister of Industry agree that there is a major imbalance in the distribution of federal research facilities in Canada and that Quebec does not receive its fair share of federal jobs in research and development?

[John Manley, Liberal, Minister of Industry]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member knows very well how important research and development in Canada are for science and technology, which benefit all Canadians.

It is not possible to say that this is exactly how all federal research money should be allocated, given the fact that much of the existing research money spent by the federal government is in support of carrying out the mandates of federal departments. It is obviously going to result in a disproportionate amount of the total spending occurring close to the seat of government.

When he takes that number out of the calculation the member will discover that in fact Quebec has more than its proportionate share.

Crtc

[Diane Ablonczy, Reform, Calgary North, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister has told the House that when the Minister of Canadian Heritage wrote the letter we have been talking about he was just acting as an MP. Then he said that the minister made a mistake.

Since he cannot have it both ways, acting reasonably and properly as an MP and making a mistake, I would like the Prime Minister to tell the House which interpretation of the minister's conduct is the correct one.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, of course when a minister is faced with a situation like that he or she has to realize he or she is a minister at the same time.

Members write all the time to commissions recommending somebody or asking that a file be studied. A minister has to be more careful. That is why I said the Minister of Canadian Heritage should have been more careful, but he was acting in good faith as a member of Parliament. His letter was very clear. He asked for due process. He was not asking for a favour.

In reality what happened was that when the decision was made the person he wrote for did not receive the permit. In fact somebody else got the permit, so the letter did not help at all.

Social Programs

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Brant, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of National Revenue.

Newspaper reports indicate that many wealthy Canadians are receiving support under Canada's social security programs. Some are receiving unemployment insurance benefits; others the child tax credit.

Will the minister please tell the House how he intends to ensure that the support of Canada's social security programs remains available for those Canadians who are truly deserving?