Debates of Nov. 3rd, 1994

Immigration

[Sergio Marchi, Liberal, Minister of Citizenship and Immigration]

Mr. Speaker, I do not want to disappoint the hon. member but there is no fudging of the figures. The figures are very clear.

We tabled four documents as part of the immigration plan, a 10 year strategic framework, a document called "Facts and Figures" and a report of the entire consultation process of what Canadians said. In response to this the Reform Party of Canada put out a three paragraph position on immigration. On Monday the critic said he was in support of the general direction, but on Tuesday he was completely opposed. Why do they not get their act together?

Government Spending

[Richard Bélisle, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Deputy Prime Minister.

While the Minister of Finance is saying that the country is practically on the verge of bankruptcy and that the time has come to cut government spending, the government tables supplementary estimates confirming over $2 billion in additional expenditures. At the same time, we learn that senior officials asked federal auditors in charge of the internal audit process to remember that their reports can be made public and to keep a low profile.

Are we to understand that the new approach favoured by the Liberal government is to try to muzzle government auditors to keep them from denouncing gross abuses and waste in the federal administration?

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for Infrastructure]

Mr. Speaker, let me repeat again that I answered this earlier to the Leader of the Opposition who of course at one time was in government and knows how supplementary estimates work.

There are not additional expenditure items. They were provided for in the reserves. There was not sufficient detail in accordance with the required procedures to place them into the main estimates at that point so it is fully understood they come under supplementary estimates.

It has not changed at all our determination to meet our expenditure cut goals and to get the deficit down to 3 per cent of GDP in three years.

[Richard Bélisle, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I do not think the minister really understood my question. Are we to understand that the new approach favoured by the Liberal government is to try to muzzle government auditors to keep

them from denouncing gross abuses and waste in the federal administration?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, it is exactly the same approach that was used by the Leader of the Opposition during his three years as a minister in Mr. Mulroney's government.

Immigration

[Philip Mayfield, Reform, Cariboo—Chilcotin, BC]

Mr. Speaker, recently Saturday Night reported on grave problems within the Immigration and Refugee Board. One of the issues raised in the article was the conduct of the vice-chair of the board. Saturday Night reported that the vice-chair had ordered the raising of refugee acceptance rates and threatened the career of those who do not meet an acceptance quota.

I ask the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration: Is it not true that he was aware of the manipulations by the vice-chair long ago? Why did he not do anything about it before?

[Sergio Marchi, Liberal, Minister of Citizenship and Immigration]

Mr. Speaker, the answer to the first question is no.

I confirm that the chair of the Immigration and Refugee Board wrote to me yesterday suggesting that there would be reasons for conducting a fuller review. Yesterday I instructed our department's legal counsel out of the Department of Justice to write to the deputy vice-chair requesting his written comments within seven days. Once I have all the facts before me I will make the appropriate decision. This government will always do the right thing.

[Philip Mayfield, Reform, Cariboo—Chilcotin, BC]

That is very reassuring, Mr. Speaker.

Recently another high ranking member of the board, Greg Fyffe, was released from the board under suspicious circumstances. Some reports tell of frustration because of interference by this minister. Another distinguished member of the board resigned his post in frustration, accusing the IRB of pandering to the immigration industry costing Canadians millions of dollars and not helping true refugees.

Will the minister admit that he has long known about the troubles in the Immigration and Refugee Board and that he refused to address them?

[Sergio Marchi, Liberal, Minister of Citizenship and Immigration]

Mr. Speaker, the member's flight of exaggeration serves no public interest except to further the political exploitation of an issue that this party has never accepted. I do not believe it is dignified for a minister of the crown or a member of Parliament to discuss personnel matters on the floor of the House of Commons.

Marine Transportation

[Benoît Sauvageau, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Transport. The Sub-Committee on the St. Lawrence Seaway is proposing that the Pilotage Act of 1972 be repealed, that the four pilotage authorities be disbanded, and that a Canada-United States agency be responsible for pilotage on the St. Lawrence River and the Great Lakes.

In order to maintain the safety of navigation on the St. Lawrence River, will the Minister of Transport pledge to reject the sub-committee's recommendation to repeal the Pilotage Act?

[Douglas Young, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, we understand the great importance of safe navigation on the St. Lawrence River and elsewhere, and the report submitted by the sub-committee will be thoroughly examined. I want to reassure the hon. member and tell him that we will not take any measure that would jeopardize the safety of those who navigate on the St. Lawrence River or elsewhere.

[Benoît Sauvageau, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Mr. Speaker, considering that the safety of navigation on the St. Lawrence River is not the responsibility of Americans, who have a real interest in cutting the costs of navigating in Canadian waters, how can the minister expect a binational agency to apply the same safety standards as the current pilotage authorities?

[Douglas Young, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, the introduction of new technology or the changes in any system having to do with maintaining safety and security whether it is in the air, on the sea or on land will always have as its very first priority the safety and security of Canadians and anyone who travels in Canadian controlled environment.

I want to reassure my colleague that whatever changes are made, and this report is one of many that will have to be considered, the first priority will always be to make sure that we are respecting safety and security. Any arrangements whether they are with the United States or any other international arrangement we enter into will always focus on safety and security because that is the fiduciary responsibility of the Department of Transport.

Law Of The Sea

[Charles Caccia, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the distinguished Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

The law of the sea is designed to protect the world's fisheries and to stop pollution in the oceans. Canada signed that law 12 years ago but has yet to ratify it.

Given the fact that the law of the sea will come into force in two weeks and it is not ratified by Canada, would the parliamentary secretary tell this House the precise date when the Government of Canada will ratify this important international law?

[Christine Stewart, Liberal, Secretary of State (Latin America and Africa)]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to be able to answer this question of my colleague on an issue of importance to Canada.

Canada did sign the law of the sea convention in 1982 but we did have some concerns about some provisions in that convention with regard to the exploitation of the deep seabed. After long negotiations we were able to sign the agreement in the United Nations this year on July 29. Because of that we are now looking through all of our laws to make sure they are consistent with the convention.

The convention will come into force in November of this year and we hope to be able to ratify it ourselves soon thereafter.

Young Offenders Act

[Myron Thompson, Reform, Wild Rose, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the justice minister.

It is time this government ended the pain. Too many mothers live with tombstones in their eyes. They see the names of their children on gravestones because of the failure of this government to address the problems with the Young Offenders Act.

When will this government quit reviewing, consulting and debating changes to the Young Offenders Act and realize that some young offenders cannot be rehabilitated?

[Russell MacLellan, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to suggest to the hon. member that granted some young offenders cannot be rehabilitated, but most can. It is a very worthwhile exercise to seek the rehabilitation of young offenders because they are not going to serve their sentences forever. They are going to be back in society and it is in the interests of society that they be rehabilitated.

[Myron Thompson, Reform, Wild Rose, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I have looked into the eyes of a mother whose four year old child is gone forever. I have seen the tears created by the calling of her child's name. I saw this mother refuse to let go of her child's teddy bear as if the touch might keep her child alive.

Canadians stand on these grounds to protest this government's refusal to admit mothers and fathers cry every day because the current young offenders legislation is no deterrent to violent youth.

When will the minister admit some violent young offenders deserve closed custody for periods that are longer than the time it takes for the tears to stop flowing?

[Russell MacLellan, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, there is no punishment or sanction in the world that is going to compensate for the loss of a child.

The Reform Party is asking for justice and that is what it is getting from this government. Bill C-37, with amendments to the Young Offenders Act, is in committee at the present time. We have stated that we will be proceeding with a 10-year review of the Young Offenders Act.

We need consultation and dialogue to get the right law. If we were not dialoguing and consulting, there would be another complaint from the Reform Party.

Marine Transportation

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Laurentides, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of the Environment.

Even though double hulls are not required for navigation on the St. Lawrence and giant oil tankers have very little clearance when carrying a full cargo, the transport sub-committee recommends that the Pilotage Act be repealed and the pilotage associations disbanded.

In order to avoid an ecological disaster on the St. Lawrence, does the Minister of the Environment intend to continue to require shipowners to use certified pilots?

[Douglas Young, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, first of all, there is no doubt that my hon. colleague attaches a great deal of importance to a report prepared by the transport sub-committee, but let us not exaggerate that importance. Before changes, if in fact there are any, can take place, all the implications will have to be examined.

And as far as security on the St. Lawrence River is concerned, we are obviously going to take great pains to ensure that any proposed changes will not result in greater risk than that already existing.

When I listen to the Leader of the Opposition and the members of the Bloc speaking about budgetary restraint and the need to examine all possible avenues to cut costs, I wish to make it quite clear that we will examine all the possibilities, but we will also maintain our responsibility for security on the St. Lawrence River and elsewhere in Canada.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Laurentides, QC]

Mr. Speaker, since the Minister of Transport continues to threaten to eliminate the St. Lawrence pilotage system, does the Minister of the Environment recognize that this system constitutes the best means of ensuring the protection of the environment with respect to navigation on the St. Lawrence?

[Douglas Young, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, it is completely false to claim that the Minister of Transport is threatening to abolish the pilotage system on the St. Lawrence or anywhere else in Canada.

A parliamentary sub-committee tabled a report and we will take its recommendations into consideration. But we will evaluate all changes in the context I have described previously, that of ensuring the security of people travelling on the St. Lawrence, or on the east or west coast.

As far as pilotage is concerned, no decision has been taken. I would like to assure my hon. colleague, through you, Mr. Speaker, that this is not the time to start rumours that we are going to do anything today or tomorrow that could endanger those who need to have their safety ensured on land, at sea and in the air.

Justice

[Val Meredith, Reform, Surrey—White Rock—South Langley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the recent Supreme Court decision confirming the defence of extreme drunkenness was only a milestone in developing trends of defensive intoxication.

This year in British Columbia there has been a 50 per cent increase in the number of murder trials that resulted in convictions on lesser charges. The majority of these cases are due to the defence of intoxication.

Why is this government prepared to wait while the intoxication defence is allowing criminals to literally get away with murder?

[Russell MacLellan, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, as I mentioned, I think to the hon. member for Beaver River, this is a great concern to the Minister of Justice and there is going to be something done about this.

The whole question of extreme and excessive drunkenness is being included in the recodification of the Criminal Code. The report on that recodification is now before the Minister of Justice and he will be expressing his position on the contents of this recodification very shortly.