Debates of Feb. 17th, 1994

Kaon Project

[Chuck Strahl, Reform, Fraser Valley East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the federal government has promised one-third participation in the KAON project in Vancouver, a project which is on the leading edge of world technology and holds great promise for Canada. All that remains to complete the funding package is to pursue U.S. participation.

The Minister of Industry is sending mixed messages about KAON. Federal government support appears to be wavering which is causing our international partners to lose confidence.

The Americans are enthusiastic about this proposal, and I quote from a statement by their KAON study panel:

Mixed messages from Canada appear to have been received. A request now from Canada at a ministerial level-for a U.S. response might be very helpful to enable the early completion of the process.

We need to know, potential international investors need to know, as do the B.C. government and the scientific community, whether the minister is going to press ahead with this project.

Organized Crime

[Lucien Bouchard, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Prime Minister.

RCMP accounts and sources reported daily in the media are gradually revealing the extent of criminal activities connected with the smuggling operations of the warriors. The problem has become a very serious one, as we read this morning in the Montreal daily La Presse , which reported that smugglers operating on the reserves were also involved in money laundering, along with, and I quote: ``-Italian organized crime, motorcycle gangs and even a number of Colombian families''. According to the officer responsible for RCMP operations in Quebec, the RCMP cannot stop criminal activities on the reserves without the co-operation of the Mohawk authorities.

Considering that the situation has gone beyond the limits of what is admissible under the rule of law, will the Prime Minister acknowledge he has a duty to meet the Mohawk chiefs in order to obtain their co-operation in stopping the activities of the warriors, as requested by the RCMP?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we have given the RCMP a clear mandate to do its job and wipe out all smuggling in Canada, including on Indian reserves.

As I explained to the House, the whole issue of policing on Indian reserves is very complicated. We have the local Mohawk police which is authorised by law and has a mandate delegated either by the Government of Ontario or the Government of Quebec. We have the provincial police which is involved in general law enforcement, in other words, the Quebec Provincial Police and the Ontario Provincial Police.

As for the federal police, its role on Indian reserves is to deal with smuggling. That is what it is doing now, and I have nothing more to say. The RCMP has a clear mandate to do its job as prescribed by law.

[Lucien Bouchard, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, it is common knowledge that any police, effective and prestigious though it may be, and we acknowledge that is the case with the RCMP, needs the support of the government. In this case, the RCMP does not have that support. That is pretty obvious.

I want to ask the Prime Minister whether he will admit that my question, which he failed to answer, is very relevant, in other words, we should ensure that the RCMP can count on the co-operation of the chiefs on these reserves and consequently, the Prime Minister should see them himself and not let people see ministers when they come out of these meetings and the parties are contradicting each other.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, if the Leader of the Opposition really wants to solve the problem, he will ask his members not to play the game of dragging the problem of the Mohawks into their questions all the time.

We are fighting those who are criminals. Some are outside the reserve; there might be some on the reserve. But the impression of the Mohawks at this time is that it is a campaign by the Bloc Quebecois to tarnish their reputation, and this is not useful.

[Lucien Bouchard, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, there is quite a difference between tarnishing a reputation and sticking to the facts. The Bloc never asked any questions that were not close to the facts, and the Bloc relayed allegations which were made and published in very respected newspapers in Quebec: Le Soleil, La Presse, Le Droit, et cetera.

The answer of the Prime Minister is equivalent to abdicating the authority of the law. If the Prime Minister would like to discharge his duties he would meet the chief of those villages and localities to make sure they provide their full co-operation to the government.

Since there are links with international activities on this question, would the Prime Minister get in touch with the American government to get the full co-operation of that government so as to implement an international police action plan which would be efficient and professional?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the RCMP has been in touch with the American authorities.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the press is also reporting this morning that the RCMP is in a position to prove that in 1993 alone, at least $700 million in cash passed through the Akwesasne reserve, that many other items in addition to cigarettes are smuggled and that many other groups associated with organized crime are involved.

Will the Prime Minister undertake to put an end to the activities of organized crime groups who are taking advantage of a protected area just a few kilometres away from Montreal to launder money and conduct their illegal activities without fear of being stopped?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the matter of money laundering the hon. member refers to is already under active investigation by the RCMP. It has the full support of the government in doing whatever it considers

necessary to put an end to the smuggling rings wherever they are in the country.

I wish that the RCMP had the same support from the Bloc.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my supplementary is for the Solicitor General, since he is answering for the Prime Minister.

Can the Solicitor General, who is privy to all kinds of information, explain to us why he is always the only one in the dark, when in fact these allegations come directly from RCMP investigators? Is the Solicitor General living on another planet, or does he simply prefer to turn a blind eye to what is going on?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I am dealing with reality, not like the Bloc that says that it asks questions that are only "close to the facts".

If the Bloc were serious it would ask questions based on facts because that is the kind of answer the government is giving. Our answers are based on facts, based on full support for the RCMP and its work everywhere in the country.

Members Of Parliament

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister.

Yesterday the Prime Minister told Canadians that the whole idea of members voting solely on the basis of what their constituents want or believe is revolting.

At a time when Canadians are seeking better representation in Parliament, could the Prime Minister please explain why this is so revolting to him?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I said that we could not run a country through referenda. That is what I said.

If some members of Parliament do not think they can pass judgment when a law is in the House, they do not belong in the House. That is what I said. We cannot go to the electorate and have a referendum every time a member cannot make up his or her mind. "If it is too hot in the kitchen", as Truman said, "get out of the kitchen".

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, we are in the Chamber. This is what concerns us today. I quote: "The erosion of confidence in politicians is partly a result of an arrogant style of political leadership. The people are irritated with governments that do not consult them or that disregard their views". Those words come straight from the Liberal red book.

When did the Prime Minister begin to disregard this section of his red book?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, that is democracy. Canadians read the red book and they voted for the Liberal Party. That is democracy at its best.

Canada Customs

[Pierre Brien, Bloc, Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Speaker, CBC Prime Time News reported yesterday that liquor smugglers had bribed Canadian customs officers to make their illegal activities easier. This morning, the minister asked for an investigation and announced the hiring of 350 additional officers.

Can the Minister of National Revenue tell us whether he has arranged for tight controls during the selection process to avoid hiring people with links to organized crime and whether he will report back to the House after the investigation is completed?

[David Anderson, Liberal, Minister of National Revenue]

Mr. Speaker, I can assure the hon. member and the whole House that when we hire the new customs officers they will be subject to normal procedures, which are very strict, for choosing the very best people.

We are fortunate we have a large number of people in Canada who have worked for the department on a part-time basis during the summer and who may be a potential pool from which we can recruit.

I can assure the hon. member that the very high standards the customs service now has will be maintained with the new people who join as a result of the increase in customs numbers announced by the Prime Minister last week.

[Pierre Brien, Bloc, Témiscamingue, QC]

As a supplementary, I would ask the minister to say if he will report to the House on his investigation. I would also like to ask him whether he recognizes that the lack of follow-up on goods in transit in Canada is a weakness of Canadian customs and that this weakness is a boon to all kinds of smugglers.

[David Anderson, Liberal, Minister of National Revenue]

Yes, Mr. Speaker, we will certainly follow up. Obviously at this point when we have just asked the commissioner of the RCMP to carry out an investigation there is indeed very little to report.

However, as matters progress and as the commissioner and the RCMP reports back to the Solicitor General, we will be reporting back to the House.

Members Of Parliament

[Diane Ablonczy, Reform, Calgary North, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a question of the Prime Minister. When government members vote in the House on a particular issue, does the Prime Minister expect them to represent the position of their party, their personal judgment, or the majority view of their constituents?

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

I think the question is acceptable in its form.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I said yesterday-it is very simple-that this notion we should be replaced by polling is revolting to me. I repeat it today. We have been elected to use our judgment. Members of this party use their judgment knowing they belong to a party which was elected with a program which was distributed across the country. This is what a political party is.

The hon. member should be more worried about the way her party votes than the way the Liberal Party does.

[Diane Ablonczy, Reform, Calgary North, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I believe the only way to restore public trust in the judgment of Parliament is for Parliament to show greater trust in the judgment of the people.

Would the Prime Minister agree that one of the most effective ways of doing this is to give the people a direct role in major decisions from time to time through binding national referenda?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, there was a referendum in Canada about a year and a half ago. It can be used once in a while but it cannot be used as a formula to run Parliament. That is not the way to do it. We were elected under a program.

There have been free votes in the House in the past. I must tell the hon. member I voted against capital punishment and abortion twice. This was not what my electors preferred but they continued to vote for me because I used my experience and judgment in those cases. It was a matter of conscience for me. I took my responsibilities and I went back to them. The hon. member will be facing the same thing.

Democracy is using your judgment and if the people are not happy they will vote against you.