Debates of Feb. 17th, 1994

Defence Policy

[Louis Plamondon, Bloc, Richelieu, QC]

Madam Speaker, I would like to congratulate my hon. colleague who just spoke. I think he brought up a very important point, namely the distribution of funds and Quebec's share of DND funding. The perception is that Quebec is very well served in this regard. Of course, we want to hold on to the jobs we have and of course, we willingly

accept the benefits that come with these jobs. This debate gives us an opportunity to demonstrate once again how Quebec is not getting its fair share.

I believe my hon. colleague said that Quebec has only about 15 per cent of the jobs in the industry, whereas we account for 23 or 24 per cent of the country's population. He mentioned that the province has only 13 per cent of all military infrastructures and is allocated only 15.8 per cent of DND's overall budget. This is a very important consideration for us.

Disregarding for the moment the historic injustice of which we are the victims, I think the hon. member put his finger squarely on the problem, namely that the government is trying to gain some time by holding debates-and this one is particularly untimely and premature since the Department of Foreign Affairs has not yet decided what role the Department of National Defence will be called on to play in international policy.

In closing, I would just like to say that I agree completely with my hon. colleague about the proposed committee. We already have a perfectly adequate national defence committee. To set up a joint committee with senators would be a waste of time. The time has come to take action. The government must make some decisions. That is what it was elected to do. So, it should act and stop setting up committees.

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)]

The Chair recognizes the hon. member for Shefford, but very briefly, please.

[Jean H. Leroux, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you for your courtesy, Madam Speaker. At the risk of repeating myself, I would simply like to add that we, the members of the Bloc Quebecois, were elected to ensure that Quebec is not merely a province on the receiving end of social assistance and unemployment insurance. On every issue and in every area of federal jurisdiction, we will ensure that Quebec gets everything it has coming to it. Finally, I would just like to say that in the past, Quebec did not get its fair share and the time has come to put things right.

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Fredericton—York—Sunbury, NB]

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity to participate in this important debate examining the future of Canada's defence policy both in Canada and abroad. The proposed review is most timely because Canada, along with other nations, has come to recognize that the end of the cold war requires us to rethink the nature and purpose of our military forces.

I add that the timeliness of the debate is significant for another more broadly defined reason. The end of the cold war is not only significant for bringing about change in the defence agenda but in our political agenda as well. Not only is the military's role a broad issue, but as I said it has a role at home. We need to protect the perimeters of our country, but we must consider the military in terms of helping those in need at home.

Having said that, the end of the cold war has not brought a sudden end to the need of our military; quite the contrary. However our focus and priorities must shift in a number of policy areas. In other places, in other committees, we are in the process of redefining how government will better assist the citizens it has been elected to serve. In terms of our military we are redefining how we can better serve the people of our own country, as well as the people of other nations who are in need of its services.

Internationally the focus on peacekeeping training befits changes now occurring at the global level. Emphasis has shifted from one of conflict to conflict resolution. Such change is both welcome and necessary in light of changes happening within society at large.

Citizens both within and beyond Canada's borders now call for greater peace and justice. Greater emphasis is placed on democracy and human rights. When the cold war ceased to dominate the focus of international relations that change brought great hope that our nation would achieve a strengthened spirit built on international co-operation and collaboration.

While we have seen a relaxing of political tensions in some parts of the globe, there are still far too many regions where military conflict is intrinsic, a way of life for people in far too many regions. We still see countries attempting to meet political agendas with military force. This government's plan to strengthen our leadership role in peacekeeping and to commit to Canadian efforts to improve the UN's policies on peacekeeping could not come at a more necessary stage in our history.

It is right for Canada to fulfil the roles of peace enforcement, peace establishment, peace restoration and peace building. I would add to this list the more recent dimension of humanitarian aid protection. Such humanitarian intervention enables aid convoys to reach those people in dire need of assistance. Few can argue about the benefit of such intervention given the number of lives saved by this action.

It is time to reach consensus on the debate surrounding our military and restore our focus to the original UN mandate penned in its charter in 1945 to be a major force for international order and stability.

I would add that it is not only important for us to examine the changing role of our military on the national and international levels. We must also determine how such change should be reflected domestically.

We must continue to train troops to be prepared for any kind of military encounter along with training for peacekeeping initiatives. We need to strike a balance between maintaining armed forces to protect ourselves and participating in international peace operations. I believe the time has come for us to put forward an expanded role for our Department of National Defence, one that is not restricted to military operations alone

since this focus fails to reflect the new reality of the interdependence of foreign and domestic affairs.

Canada has one of the best regarded military forces in the world in no small part because of the training we provide our troops. We need to capitalize on this capability more often and deliver this training to the international community. While we do much of this now, we have the capacity to do more.

CFB Gagetown is the largest military base in Canada by land mass and is situated in my riding of Fredericton-York-Sunbury. As a combat training centre, Gagetown is a land force centre for excellence dedicated to the training of world class soldiers and leaders. Training is conducted within the framework of combined arms operations up to the battle group level. The base provides a most sophisticated and realistic simulation training environment and employs some of the most expert instructors in this field.

The base is responsible for conducting the most advanced courses for the infantry, artillery and armour elements of land force command and the training of troops that have served in one or more peacekeeping missions. The Royal Canadian Regiment stationed at CFB Gagetown participated in two missions within a two year period: Cyprus from October 1991 until April 1992; and the former Yugoslavia from November 1992 to May 1993. In addition there are always a number of soldiers from CFB Gagetown serving with the UN in a variety of peacekeeping missions. The experience and leadership gained while training at CFB Gagetown has had a significant impact on the success of Canadian troops during peacekeeping missions over past decades.

Further members of the reserve force totalling some 2,000 for the Atlantic region and trained at Gagetown have served in peacekeeping missions. As well reserve soldiers provide a valuable resource for emergencies because they are able to work along with the regular force personnel in various situations. The nature of reserve training is an area we may wish to explore in order to further evolve the role of our military in training on the international stage.

We also need to explore options for using our military personnel and military facilities for non-military purposes. Too often we hear of the need for better equipment and increased personnel in search and rescue. Were military resources more easily available to assist organizations like the RCMP and EMO the trauma and agony suffered by individuals and in many cases entire families and communities would be greatly reduced.

We also need to explore what roles military personnel and their facilities can play in non-military employment and training programs. As I mentioned in a statement earlier this week during members statements, the Department of National Defence has recently engaged in a co-operative initiative with New Brunswick's Department of Advanced Education and Labour to pilot an occupational and lifeskills training project.

Just Monday of this week 30 unemployed New Brunswickers between the ages of 17 and 24 began a 20 week program of military lifeskills and occupational training and job experience at CFB Gagetown. For the participants selected from youth strategy, aboriginal peoples and social assistance programs, the combination of occupational and lifeskills training will help young unemployed New Brunswickers build new futures.

There is more at stake in such an initiative than just training and employing 30 individuals. Although I do not mean to diminish the significance of that, in this period of fiscal restraint it is important to consider the financial benefits of providing training programs in this manner. Since the Canadian forces provide the training facilities and instructors for the project in New Brunswick, the people, space, materials and facilities are readily available. It strikes me that this amounts to a creative arrangement for both federal and provincial governments.

We must also consider how our military can contribute to environmental protection and clean-up and to border patrol, particularly as it relates to the north and the sea. This places new and increased demands on our military such that it moves the forces' agenda beyond just that of defending the country.

As we consider our nation's place in the global community we must remind ourselves that Canada has had a positive and well established international reputation for decades. We have been admired and emulated by countries around the globe. We want to continue to set examples for other nations. We can do this by redefining our military role to better reflect the social changes occurring at the international level. In many respects we are not only just capable of setting such examples, we are also obliged to do so.

When I first arrived in Ottawa to represent the people of Fredericton-York-Sunbury I was immediately struck by the cultural diversity represented in this House. I have always been proud of Canada's efforts to give equal recognition to all cultures living within our borders. This pride was reinforced when I realized the reality of the vision.

We are citizens of the world living in one country. Within our very own borders we know and represent a multitude of cultures found around the world. Unlike the United States we do not ascribe to a melting pot approach where people must give up their culture; we encourage individuality and uniqueness. Such

a philosophy and approach puts us in the unique position to understand the various interests and cultures of the world.

In our understanding of just how wonderful such diversity truly is, we are in the best of all positions to help others when they are faced with some form or level of forceful conflict. The diversity within our borders has not only taught us to be a compassionate and caring society; it has taught us about the many ways of life embraced by many people. We can use our own enlightenment not only as an advantage to ourselves, but also as an advantage for helping others in need of conflict resolution.

I am fully aware that our desire to accommodate a variety of cultures may be controversial and may need government support from time to time. However that should not mean that we do not want that diversity.

We can use this knowledge and respect. In fact I believe we owe it to the international community to assist the United Nations in its mission for promoting world peace. Our knowledge of ethnic diversity combined with our excellent military training and knowledge places us in an enviable and more than capable position to help achieve global stability.

In closing, I would like to add that the people of Fredericton-York-Sunbury are peaceful people who are proud New Brunswickers and Canadians. This pride is not just defined by the integrity and quality of life at the community level, but is further defined by the international reputation we know ourselves to possess around the world.

People recognize that this positive image carries with it certain obligations and responsibilities we must be willing to extend to those in need. As a country we cannot make excuses for ourselves and stay away from the fray. We are far too socially aware to bury our heads in the sand and hope that volatile situations will somehow resolve themselves, preferably in a quiet fashion.

In light of the need for us to examine and redefine Canada's military, I support the call for the appointment of a special joint committee comprised of members of the Senate and of the House of Commons to review Canada's defence policy.

[Paul Mercier, Bloc, Blainville—Deux-Montagnes, QC]

Madam Speaker, I listened with great interest to my colleague and I totally agree that changing international circumstances demand that we diversify the role of our armed forces and, hence, that we expand the types of training of our military personnel.

My colleague was right in pointing out the role played by the Canadian Forces in humanitarian aid. As a Quebecer, I could also point out that they had an opportunity to show a total control of the situation during the Oka crisis.

I would like to stress the fact that during the two first wars, our forces were able to show their real capability and, in the last few years, they have won the admiration of the world in peace missions.

I would like to give my personal testimony to my colleague. I was in Belgium during the liberation of some Belgium cities by the Canadian army. I was also in Katanga, now Zaire, in 1963, when the Canadian Forces took part in a UN mission of transition that is quite forgotten now in Katanga. So I had the opportunity to admire the Canadian Forces both in their military role and their humanitarian role.

What I would like to stress is that we should not forget in this diversification that eternal peace is not guaranteed. Nothing proves that our role will ever be limited to separating warring parties or bringing humanitarian aid. Nothing proves that we will not be dragged into conflicts of direct concern to us.

The end of the cold war is certainly a good thing, but, though I am neither a soldier nor a strategist, I do not feel that the present situation in Russia is more reassuring than the situation that existed in the former USSR. There are other potential conflicts in which we could be directly involved. The role we should assign to the bases, in order not to close them, should continue to be partly military in addition to the new responsibility, with which I fully agree, of diversified humanitarian help that they should be taking over.

My question to the hon. member is this: Does he not agree with me that we should continue to consider the strictly military role of defence of the territory and participation in democratic alliances involved in possible conflicts, besides this new and purely humanitarian role?

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Fredericton—York—Sunbury, NB]

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague and appreciate his intervention. The many issues brought forward merely point to the need for a review.

We mentioned our traditional defence role in terms of international conflict. We also mentioned humanitarian aid and the need to broaden training to include other kinds of activities. I concur on all those points and in fact use that as a strong argument for having this review and striking this joint committee.

I also welcome the opportunity to respond by saying we have to be more focused. We have to be more strategic in where we task troops to participate by virtue of the changing nature of our own military force and the department.

I would also like to speak for a second on the broadening of training. I did not mean to suggest it would just be a broadening

of military training that would be available, but rather a general broadening of training including other kinds of training. We all recognize there is a task force on human resources development that is looking for places for training. It strikes me that these facilities are one.

[George Proud, Liberal, Hillsborough, PE]

Madam Speaker, I want to commend my colleague for his remarks and his interest in this very specific task we are taking on.

We have heard many interventions here in the last number of weeks regarding our defence policy as it stands, our peacekeeping role and the costs that of course are always involved in any major undertaking we get into in this country, be it military or anything else.

I have my views, as does everyone else, on what the role of the military is in the future of our country. There are those in society as I said in my speech who perhaps do not believe we need any participation. Then there are those who believe we should spend the whole budget on it.

I assume somewhere down the line we are going to have to make a decision as to what our future is going to be in this area. There are many situations out there. In the peacekeeping roles we are involved in today the majority of our troops are land forces. We have a navy and an air force. I just want to ask the hon. member his view on what he sees coming out of the machine at the end of the day when we have completed this study and the government makes its decisions. What does he see from his constituency and from his national perspective as to where we should be going.

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Fredericton—York—Sunbury, NB]

Madam Speaker, I think the important feature in terms of this review may very well be the review itself in that in the nature that it is proposed, there was I assume broad consultation. I heard some debate as to the nature of that broad consultation but I really believe, perhaps more than with other programs, that the national defence policy of a nation requires significant public support, public understanding, sympathy and so on.

I believe that support depends on a sense among Canadians that they have the opportunity to have a say as to what the country is doing in those terms.

More than anything else I think what we will have at the end of the day is a concise, thoughtful, national policy that Canadians can understand with clarity, that Canadians can help in fact create through the broad consultation that will take place in the joint committee.

There has been, particularly in the international tasks that have been engaged in, some confusion as to objectives and the nature of missions and so on. I really believe if nothing else at the end of the day we will have a larger understanding of what it is that our troops are sent out to do.

I think that is vitally important.

[Fred Mifflin, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Madam Speaker, I will be very fast with this. The hon. member for Fredericton-York-Sunbury spoke about the training program at Gagetown with the government of New Brunswick.

Could he elaborate for a couple of minutes on that because that is a very interesting program.

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Fredericton—York—Sunbury, NB]

Madam Speaker, this program is a co-operative initiative between national defence and the department of advanced education and labour in Fredericton, essentially using the facilities, the trained personnel, instructors at CFB Gagetown, material, equipment and various people. There was a province-wide advertisement placed and a number of applications sent in. Because it is a pilot project this one is limited to 30 but the intention is to see this program grow.

There is a potential at the end of a 20-week program to become engaged in national defence itself. Also, because of the nature of some of the training available through the Department of National Defence, these individuals are trained in life skills, employment seeking skills, basic self-confidence objectives. Either way it is a win-win situation for both national defence and the provincial government in Fredericton.

[Len Hopkins, Liberal, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Madam Speaker, I have not had the opportunity to congratulate you on your appointment to the chair. We wish you well. I know you will do a very fine job.

I want to take this opportunity in this debate to thank my constituents for my re-election and for supporting me over the years the way they have. We have the largest county in the province of Ontario. In addition to that in my riding we have a large part of the district of Nipissing.

I live three miles from the base gate in Petawawa township. That base has been in the forefront of peacekeeping activities since day one. The families of the military and the civilian community have been rubbing shoulders. They get along well together. They play together. They work together. They study together and they plan together.

There is a very good civilian-military relationship throughout the entire community. That is very important. It is very important that our civilian community support our Canadian Armed Forces. This defence policy we are talking about today is undoubtedly in the long run going to mean they will be facing challenges of great cultural differences wherever they go in the

world. They will be facing great differences in religious beliefs and customs wherever they go.

It is not easy for personnel in the Canadian forces to be sent to any trouble spot on the face of the earth. They are ready to go, they are professionals, but there will be accidents along the way. When there are accidents we have to support them and when they do an excellent job we support them. If we do not do that then I would suggest to everybody that we are not really living up to that great promise we make on November 11 as we stand around the cenotaphs and say: "We will remember them".

Every soldier who goes abroad to do work on behalf of Canada, every soldier who works for this country has the same dedication to this nation and to his or her duty as those who have gone before them. We wish them well.

As we talk about Canada's defence policy in the few months ahead it is going to be very important that we consult those people as well as the Canadian public at large.

You cannot have a debate such as this on Canada's defence policy and have an inward look at it. Defence policy and foreign affairs policy automatically mean that we are not only looking at things in a national perspective here at home but we are looking at the world as an international community and we are going to work with them.

We must be humanitarian in our view of the world. We must be realistic. There is no way we can face the situations in this world today without being professional. Our Canadian Armed Forces are professional. There is a great visiting back and forth between Gagetown and Petawawa. I want to thank my hon. colleague from the Gagetown area for the speech he delivered this afternoon. He obviously has a very good feel for his constituents in the military community. It is very important to have that feeling on the floor of this House as we talk about defence policy and foreign policy for this great nation of ours.

There was a great deal of comment this afternoon about the defence committee. I cannot believe some of the comments I have heard. One would almost think that a standing committee around this place was something new. Standing committees have been going for decades. Standing committees have been meeting some of the best professional witnesses, the professional community and organizations anywhere in the world to come before a parliamentary committee. What is democracy all about? When a government is elected, does that government make decisions without consulting people along the way?

We just finished nine years of a government of that kind. It said it was consulting people all the time but it very seldom did. I ask the question: Where is it today? The leader of the Bloc Quebecois sat right here in the front row on this side of the House under the previous government. It is probably a good thing that he changed parties or he would not be in the House today.

We talk about standing committees of the House of Commons. My goodness, my own county council back home has about 35 or 36 very respected people on it. They have their committees for local government and they do a fantastic job. You save yourself a lot of heartache and trouble in the future. At least you have a feel for what is out there. You have some expert advice.

We in our capacity as individual members in this House of Commons are not all experts. We cannot stand in our place, and I defy any members of the opposition parties to stand in their place, and say that we know it all, we do not have to talk to anybody. That is not the way a good government operates.

A good government works with the people of the nation. It takes advice from the people of the nation. There are cases where you have to stand up and be counted because there is no real consensus of opinion. It is called leadership.

You cannot have a democracy if you do not have leadership. Sometimes you have to make those tough decisions but make them we must. That is why we are here. That is why people are paying us to be here.

We have played a great role in peacekeeping in support of the UN and we have heard a great deal about that today. However let us remember that when we are talking about those two things and when we are talking about a defence policy, what we have been doing in recent years in the international community as well as at home has been born out of our participation in two major world wars and the League of Nations in between those two world wars.

The Korean war came as the really first test of the United Nations. Was it going to stand up and be counted? Were the nations that belonged to the UN going to stand up and be counted or were they going to take the side step as happened to many nations that were members of the League of Nations between the two world wars?

It is very important that we continue as a nation to be good negotiators. It is important in this community that we have a good Canadian Armed Forces that has the ability and the capacity to operate in the international scene and to face all kinds of disasters and challenges. People who are in the forces joined because they know that is what their challenge is. They love the life they are in.

Canada played a major role in the founding of the United Nations after World War II. In that respect, I suppose we built some of our defence policy at that time. If we were going to promote the United Nations and be a member of the United Nations from its founding day onward, we had to support it. That

meant at times that we had to support them in settling international conflicts.

If we do not take that attitude then we not only let ourselves down, we let the United Nations down and we let the international community down. Worst of all, we let the peace forces throughout the world down and we are going to run into a major conflict. There are all kinds of people out there looking for a scrap these days.

Canada played a major role in the founding of NATO, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Lester B. Pearson, St. Laurent and King before him played a major role in the NATO organization. We know very well that if it had not been for the NATO forces sitting there ready to do battle, ready to face the Warsaw pact head on, if it had not been for trying to promote a balance of power in the world in those days, and there is no question in my mind as a student of history, we would have run into another major conflict in the world.

What would have happened in a nuclear arms war? We know the answer to that. I suppose we do not want to believe the reality of it but the potential was there. If we do not meet those challenges of today, if we do not have a good foreign policy for Canada and if we do not have a good defence policy for this country, I maintain that we will not be doing our responsible job as a nation in the international community nor will we be doing a good job for our own people right here in our beloved nation of Canada.

The Ogdensburg agreement of 1940 signed by Mackenzie King and President Roosevelt is a good example of the kind of international responsibility that we participated in during the second world war.

The North American air defence was another example of protecting Canada at the same time as helping to protect other nations.

Canada has always believed very strongly in multinational defence operations. Here with a population of 26.5 million or whatever we have today we could not begin to defend our borders, our coastal waters and our far north if we were not members of an international defence alliance. That was the real basis of NATO. That is where we must maintain our relations with other countries in the world.

Canada is a respected country around the world and that is why we can work with other countries in keeping the peace and keeping small battles down to a small roar instead of a big roar.

We were very influential in the founding and the ongoing activities of the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe. That too is part of our defence organization because if we did not promote it we would not be promoting the well-being in the international community of those involved in that organization.

During the cold war what happened? The cold war was almost a battle to see who would go broke first. Military equipment and new technology cost so much and so dearly that it was a matter of who put the most into it, who had the best tax base and not who could win a war but who could sustain the cold war the longest. We know that the Soviet Union went broke first, but in doing so it certainly put the United States into a healthy debt situation today. We know what our own situation is like here in Canada.

The real basis of a defence policy is not just to get together at home and form a defence policy, but to get along with our neighbours and get along with the world community at large. That demands some expertise and some professionalism.

I would stack the members of our Canadian forces up against any diplomatic organization in the world. We think about them as fighting people. They are ready to do that. They are good soldiers but they are also good negotiators because sometimes they find themselves in the middle of things when they have to negotiate or talk to the enemy or to try to bring parties together under peaceful conditions.

I always say to members of our Canadian forces that not only are they good soldiers, they are good diplomats. They may not like my third definition for them but they are also good politicians because it takes that kind of leadership, that kind of negotiating skills that one requires in politics. We need that in the international community today. Our soldiers need that and our professionals need it when they go abroad.

World problems did not go away with the ending of the cold war. There are some people who think they did. We are only kidding ourselves if we believe that. Look at what has happened in the former Yugoslavia. We call it a humane world. We think that parts of the world have been here so long that today they are very human and realistic in their outlook. What we have seen in the former Yugoslavia is a good example of what took place in the dark ages when there were wars among tribes, et cetera.

Somalia is another good example of a nation divided within itself, fighting within itself and starving its people into doing what the military leaders wanted them to do or the local leaders wanted them to do. It is just a terrible situation.

Our defence policy is going to have to be-and I state this in the strongest, sincerest terms-such that our numbers in our Canadian forces are going to have to stay at a healthy level at which we can carry out our foreign policy.

If our forces are reduced to levels at which we really cannot have an effect on the international community, if we really cannot carry out our duties as effective peacekeepers, if we cannot really carry out our duties to help the United Nations in major challenges that come along, then we will not be playing our role and our foreign policy will not be in place. Our Canadian forces are a large part of the foreign policy of Canada.

Questions have been asked across the floor of the House today of why we do not bring in a white paper now, why do we go to all this trouble of interviewing people and having hearings from experts, specialists and our Canadian forces personnel, and why do we not just bring in a white paper and table it and then have a debate.

The last government, the Tory government that we had between 1984 and 1993, tried that out for size. The Tories brought in a white paper. Where is it today? What part of that white paper is valid today? Where would our nuclear submarines be today? We would have spent billions of dollars under that white paper that was not properly thought out before it was tabled in this House of Commons.

That is not the way this government is going to operate. This government is going to operate in a responsible manner in which we know what we are talking about before we take off on the run with some white paper. That is going to be a very important document.

We write our white paper after we put our policy together. Our policy means that we understand what the challenges out there really are. Our white paper should tell us that we are ready to face those challenges. It should provide for the changing conditions out there.

I want to go back to my home base of Petawawa. On many occasions when peacekeeping groups were put together they were brought into base Petawawa and there we had paint shops set up. Vehicles that were going to serve the UN were all painted white. Then they went through another shop and the big initials UN were painted on them. Then they were loaded on to Hercules, on to flat cars and were taken by ship and by plane to the problem area, wherever it was in the world. That is a great operation. It is run from square one.

We can bring an element of troops in from Calgary, others from Gagetown, others from base Kingston and others from Chilliwack if they are needed. It is a national operation. They are brought all together. The professionalism of our forces, which is going to be very important to promote in our defence policy review, is that they can work together. They train together and they are training together with our allies. Certainly that is going to be part of a defence policy. We have to continue to train with the Americans, with the British, with the Germans and have them over here, people from the international community.

As we know, we have the international community already training in Canada in places like Goose Bay and Shilo, Manitoba and in Alberta. It is a very good operation.

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)]

I am sorry, the hon. member's time has more than expired.

[Murray Calder, Liberal, Wellington—Grey—Dufferin—Simcoe, ON]

Madam Speaker, I would like to congratulate the member on his speech.

In 1988 I ran against the nuclear powered submarine issue because it was an issue that Canada was looking at Cadillacs when we did not need them. The helicopter deal that we had during this election campaign was again Canada looking at Cadillacs.

The member stated that the Department of National Defence is going to undergo review. I applaud that because basically we have to look at what the role of the Department of National Defence is going to be in the 21st century.

Canada has been called a boy scout in the international arena in which we have been solving problems and helping countries that need help. I am watching right now Russia, which went broke in the arms race, selling off at bargain basement prices all its arsenal to different countries that are willing to buy it. This obviously is going to be a problem in the future.

If the hon. member could polish off his crystal ball a bit, after the review in this country where does he see our position on the UN and NATO in the international arena?

[Len Hopkins, Liberal, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question. In response, I have heard the term boy scout used a great deal when talking about our Canadian forces. All I can say is that if we had more boy scouts like them, we would have a lot less trouble in this world. The term is used in a friendly way, but Canadian forces have always proven themselves, proven that they have metal, that they have courage and that they do their jobs well.

If it were not for the qualities of our Canadian forces to bring people together we would be in a lot worse position in this world today than we are. I applaud the forces for that.

Where do we stand after the review? I know that the hon. member would not want me to upstage the committee that is carrying out the review of the forces, nor would I try to prejudge it at this stage of the hearings which just got under way this morning as we went on with the defence committee.

I would like to say a word, though, about the UN. Not only is Canada having a defence review, but the time is long overdue when we should have a United Nations review. There is no better country in the world to lead up that review and to promote it than Canada because of the role that we played and the support we have given to the United Nations over the years, plus the fact

that Canada had such a major role in the founding of the United Nations to begin with.

We have to watch its operations now and upgrade it as well because that will mean that however the United Nations is upgraded will have an effect on our own defence policy in the future. We want to get better decision making powers out there.

Where do we see NATO? I can give my views on that at this stage. If we are going to continue to have major problems in the world and fires such as we have, then we are going to have to have a good alliance.

It is very important that we keep up the NATO alliance and keep our relationships together in the event that we have to pull that organization together for a major crisis some day. We do not have to be out there flaunting great forces every day of the week, but we have to keep it together and keep a good base for strength there in the future.

I read something the other day that I think is a good example as we start this defence review. It said that we should build on our fires, not on the ashes of our past.

Some of the fires of the past are what we used to organize the United Nations. What this country had was statesmanship in those days to organize the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Let us not lose it, let us build on those fires of the past and keep them there for many years to come. That is the only way we are going to retain any level of peace in this old world that we live in today.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Madam Speaker, I also want to congratulate the hon. member for his speech this evening. I certainly can appreciate, as he does very well, the history and the role of our armed forces, coming as I do from an area in which there is certainly a very strong military component. Although I have no bases in the riding of Halifax West, many people who live in the riding work either at the Shearwater base or CFB Halifax or the dockyard or on the ships themselves.

I am certainly very pleased the government will be reviewing the defence policy of our country. It is certainly long overdue. We do have a strong role to play in peacekeeping. In terms of our foreign policy it is very important that we play a role in the world and continue to do so because the world is facing many strains. The pressures on the world are intensifying in many ways because of poverty growth, population growth and environmental problems world-wide.

How does hon. member see these intensifying pressures affecting the role of the military in future?

[Len Hopkins, Liberal, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Madam Speaker, the hon. member mentioned lastly the environmental problems. If we could prevent wars such as the one that occurred in the Persian gulf we would be doing that entire part of the world a great favour. The fallout on the environment as a result of the Persian gulf war has been horrendous in that region of the world.

This is why I want to emphasize today that our new defence policy and our foreign policy have to put great emphasis on keeping those types of battles down to a minimum and trying to settle them peacefully before they blow wide open. This is where I think the United Nations comes in. If the United Nations had had more power to move quickly and to act, maybe we could have prevented some of those disasters from happening in the manner in which they did.

I agree with the hon. member that wherever our forces bases are located, the people tend to live in the surrounding communities. That is good because they get to know one another very well. They get to know some of their problems and they have a feel for the civilian community. As we go on with this defence review it is going to be very important to emphasize civilian military relations in those communities and in communities where we do not have a military presence at all.

The hon. member and myself have a feel for it. Other members who spoke today have a feel for it, but those who live in communities that never see the military from one day to the next do not have the same feel for it. That is why this defence review is very important. That is why it is important the defence committee travel Canada to have an impact on those areas and to let them know what is going in the military community.

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)]

Is the House ready for the question?

[Some hon. members]

Question.

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)]

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)]

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

[Some hon. members]

Yea.

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)]

All those opposed will please say nay.

[Some hon. members]

Nay.