Debates of May 2nd, 1994

Young Offenders Act

[John Nunziata, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

moved that Bill C-217, an act to amend the Young Offenders Act, the Contraventions Act and the Criminal Code in consequence thereof, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Mr. Speaker, it is with profound regret that I lead off the debate on changes to the Young Offenders Act today. Press reports indicate that a 16-year old man, Marwan Harb, was murdered yesterday in Hull, just blocks away from the Parliament Buildings.

The person allegedly responsible for that death apparently is a young offender and according to press reports the victim, Marwan Harb, is the second cousin of one of our colleagues, the member for Ottawa Centre.

We do not need this latest incident to remind us of the necessity for changes to the Young Offenders Act, which is in desperate need for reform. Just a few weeks ago there was another senseless killing, again committed by a young offender. Nicholas Battersby met his death as a result of a drive-by shooting in Ottawa. These murders, these incidents, are happening right across the country.

My colleague from Kent who has been instrumental in calling for changes to the Young Offenders Act will be speaking about a particularly vicious murder in his community.

In the province of Alberta a woman trying to protect her children was stabbed to death, again by a young offender.

A six-year-old in British Columbia was raped and murdered by a young offender who had a number of convictions for molesting young children. The public did not know because the Young Offenders Act has a total ban on the publication of details.

The beat goes on and on. While these incidents are taking place, while these murders, rapes, robberies and assaults are taking place, we in Parliament are sitting on our hands. We did not need these incidents to tell us that the Young Offenders Act is in desperate need of reform.

We have been back for six months and there still is not any concrete action. This is the first bill before Parliament to address the Young Offenders Act, which is just one small component of the criminal justice system, one small component of a system that simply does not work, a system that is unbalanced, a system that cares more about suspects and criminals, a system that is more concerned about those who perpetrate crimes than those who are victims of crime in the country.

One thing was made perfectly clear by my constituents in the riding of York South-Weston, and I am sure by all Canadians, and that is that the criminal justice system is in desperate need of reform.

Canadians want leadership. They want changes not only to the Young Offenders Act but to other pieces of federal legislation, including the Criminal Code, the parole laws, the bail laws, the prostitution laws. We cannot simply sit back and say what a wonderful country we live in, look at how safe our country is. Let us look to the United States as an example of what it is really like to be bad as far as criminal activity is concerned.

This debate is timely. At the conclusion of the debate this morning I will be seeking the unanimous consent of the House to have this matter referred to the justice committee so that the justice committee can begin work. I will be listening very carefully to the person or persons in the House who will deny unanimous consent to send this matter to committee, and that person or those MPs who deny unanimous consent will have to explain their reasons why they want to continue to sit on their hands.

I have to say as well that I am not at all happy with the government's agenda with regard to changes to the Young Offenders Act. The government's agenda is on a slow boat to China when we ought to have changes here in the House immediately.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear.

[John Nunziata, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I have great respect and confidence in the Minister of Justice with regard to his genuine commitment to changes to the criminal justice system in Canada, but unfortunately his agenda calls for simply the introduction of a bill in June and he is not expecting passage of the bill

until later this year or sometime next year. That is just not good enough.

I would submit that it would be totally and completely and absolutely irresponsible for members of all sides of this House to rise for the summer holidays, to go back to our homes, families and cottages without passing changes to the Young Offenders Act. That would be an abdication of our responsibility as legislators. It would be an abdication of the mandate and the trust given to us by the people of Canada six short months ago.

I would urge the minister, I would urge the government, I would urge all members in the House to expedite changes. We do not need another year or two of study. I was a member of the justice committee for eight years. When I was first elected to the House in September 1984 the Young Offenders Act was only a few months old and it was clear then that the Young Offenders Act would not work. I have been calling for changes for the last 10 years.

Here we are 10 years later and just a few weeks ago the 10th anniversary of the Young Offenders Act was celebrated. The Young Offenders Act replaced the old juvenile delinquents act. Back then the bleeding hearts claimed that the juvenile delinquents act was not working and they needed a more balanced system.

We have now a piece of federal legislation that is totally unbalanced. It is a piece of legislation that shoves aside the public interest and shoves aside security for the public. Instead it protects and invites young people to break the law, to embark upon a lifetime of criminality.

The bill which I have before Parliament today addresses three of the fundamental changes necessary to the Young Offenders Act. I will speak about those changes in a few moments.

First, I want to talk about the existing law, the Young Offenders Act, section 3, which contains eight statements of policy indicating the philosophy behind the Young Offenders Act. I want to summarize the philosophy and explain why in my view that while the intention was there, the 10 years of practice that we have had have clearly established that the principles have gone haywire.

The first principle is that young persons are said not to be as accountable for their acts as are adults but even so they must bear responsibility for their contraventions-motherhood and apple pie.

Second, society must be afforded protection from illegal behaviour although it does have a responsibility to take measures to prevent criminal conduct by youth. That was the second principle, but experience has shown that the protection of society does not even appear to register in the consideration of those involved in the system, particularly judges who have to bear some of the responsibility for some of the outrageous sentences that are handed down today.

The third statement recognizes the need for supervision, discipline and control of young offenders, but also that they have special needs and require guidance and assistance. We will not find any dispute about the need for special guidance and assistance for young people. We all recognize that there is a need for a system that will deal with young offenders. We do not want to treat 12 and 13 year olds, genuine children, like adults. We do not want to throw them in the slammer, send them down to Kingston to serve a life sentence or to serve lengthy prison terms. There has to be a balanced system. We all recognize that.

However, when we look at the experience today we recognize that the system is doing a disservice to the public and to young people because it is telling young people today that they have to carry knives. One cannot help but wonder that if there were a different psychology out there with our young people today the young person who was murdered in Hull yesterday would be alive today. Why was it necessary for the person who committed the murder to be carrying a knife? It is not uncommon for young people today to carry knives and loaded guns to school every morning. That is the atmosphere that our young people are faced with today. They carry guns and knives and other deadly weapons not simply to do harm to other people but for protection.

Mr. Speaker, when you and I were in high school, public school and university if there was a score to settle you used your fists. You would go out back and have a fist fight, a little wrestle and you would settle your scores. Today scores are settled with deadly force. Scores are settled with knives and bullets and guns. People are killed and maimed right across the country as a result of this unfortunate and tragic situation that our young people are faced with today.

The philosophy also says, the fourth consideration, that the taking of measures other than judicial proceedings should be considered where not inconsistent with the protection of society.

The fifth statement recognizes the legal and constitutional rights of youth. Therein lies one of the major problems with the Young Offenders Act. On the one hand it says we should treat young offenders as children. On the other hand it says we should afford them all the rights and privileges afforded other criminals under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

That is fine and dandy, but then young people recognize that they have the right to a lawyer; let's go get legal aid. They have the right to all the protection that adults have, such as the right to remain silent and all the other rights. Young people recognize

that those rights exist and they are using them as protection from criminal responsibility.

The sixth principle is that a young person has the right-and this is a real kicker-to the least possible interference with freedom as is consistent with public safety. It is built right into the Young Offenders Act. It says we cannot interfere with their freedom.

Seventh, young offenders have the right to be informed of their rights and freedoms in any situation where those rights and freedoms may be infringed.

Finally, parents are said to have a responsibility for the care and supervision of their children, and children are to be removed from parents only in compelling circumstances.

That is the philosophy behind the Young Offenders Act. Some of it is apple pie and motherhood, but the rest of it unfortunately has led to a system that is a contributing factor to the decay of the moral fibre and the integrity of our youth.

I want to make one thing perfectly clear. I am not calling for sending young children to jail and throwing away the keys, or whipping them and hanging them. What I am calling for is a more balanced approach. The significant majority of young people are law-abiding citizens. They do not need a law to tell them the difference between right and wrong. We are dealing with the exceptions, the small percentage of young hoods, young incorrigibles in our society, who are using the law in order to further their criminality.

We need a balanced system. Somehow the principles outlined in the Young Offenders Act have not been translated into action and the pendulum has swung in favour of the rights and protection of the youth. Public security has become a secondary consideration at best and all too often has been neglected entirely.

My bill addresses three specific areas. First, I would change the age limits provided in the Young Offenders Act. Today a young offender, a child, these people who are in need of protection and caring guidance, is defined as a young person between the ages of 12 and 17. We have the situation of a 17-year-old, one day shy of his or her 18th birthday, old enough to drive, old enough to enter into contracts in some jurisdictions, yet treated as a child and defined as a child.

Statistics show that half of the youth court case load involves 16 and 17 year olds. My bill would treat 16 and 17 year olds as adults. They would be charged and prosecuted in adult court, and in my submission that would act as a very serious deterrent to other 16 and 17 year olds from breaking the law.

As well my bill would lower the age limit to the age of 10. Some people are suggesting that there should not be any lower end to the definition of a young offender. We all know of the case in Great Britain, for example, where two 10-year-olds were convicted of murder. In Canada children under the age of 12 are used by adults to commit criminal offences. Second, some of them are committing in their own right serious offences. By lowering the age limit it allows the police to bring these children into the system so they can be dealt with and treated properly.

My bill would define children as those young people between the ages of 12 and 15. Sixteen and seventeen year olds know the difference between right and wrong, understand the nature and consequences of their acts and therefore, in my view, ought to be prosecuted in adult court. As members know, age is always a mitigating circumstance at sentencing in adult court.

The second aspect of my bill-it is something that the minister has already indicated he supports-is the increase in the maximum penalty for first degree murder from five to ten years. I applaud the minister for confirming his position in that regard not too long ago. Just a few years ago the maximum penalty was three years for first degree murder.

We had the situation in Scarborough, for example, where a young offender committed a triple murder, first degree murder, and served three years. He then was released. Now the sentence has been bumped up to five years but in my respectful submission it ought to be ten years for first degree murder.

The third aspect of my bill would allow for the publication of the details and the identity of a young offender after the second serious conviction. Right now there is a blanket prohibition on the publication of details.

The case in British Columbia-there are dozens of other similar cases-underlined the need for the public, the neighbours, the school system to know of some of the serious offences. The young person had been convicted of molesting young children. If the public knew, if the police knew, if neighbours knew, they could have taken the necessary precautions. He murdered and raped a six-year old child.

My bill would allow the young offender two chances. Once they have committed two serious offences, then the public would be entitled to know the details and the identity of the young offender. I submit that would serve as a deterrent for young offenders.

Let me end where I began. The system is in desperate need of repair. We have to move with dispatch. For those people who suggest this concern is a knee-jerk reaction to the murder in Hull or the murder here in Ottawa or the dozens of other murders and rapes and violent assaults, let me tell members that they are sadly mistaken. Their heads are in the sand and it is time that they woke up and smelled the coffee.

This is not something that happened overnight. It is a concern. The problem has been here for the last 10 years. I would urge my colleagues to expedite changing passages in the Young Offenders Act.

I would ask that at the conclusion of this debate at 12 noon today we have the unanimous consent of the House to refer the bill and its subject matter to the justice committee so that we can begin immediate deliberations with regard to this component of the criminal justice system.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I welcome this opportunity to speak to the bill introduced by the hon. member for York South-Weston, a trial balloon being launched by the Liberal government on the issue of young offenders.

Since the opening of the 35th Parliament, the Department of Justice has been discussing amendments to the Young Offenders Act. For reasons known to the department, it seems this was one of its priorities.

Furthermore, in the famous red book people have been talking about since October 25, the Liberal party proposed to reform the Young Offenders Act, to offer real rehabilitation while cracking down on young criminals.

Since I assume no one is against real rehabilitation, today the Liberal government is testing the temper and sensibilities of voters on the issue of cracking down on young criminals. Considering the bill the hon. member has introduced, I understand why he sits on the extreme right of the Prime Minister.

Unfortunately, this shift to the right on the young offenders issue is based on a skewed equation of violence and young people. To the average citizen, youth is equated with violence and adolescence is synonymous with delinquency. However, nothing could be further from the truth.

In Quebec, since 1979, all crimes committed by young people have decreased substantially, by nearly 8 per cent across Quebec and by 34 per cent in the Montreal area. Was the government, or should I say, was the hon. member aware of these figures before he introduced the kind of bill we have before us today?

We cannot go on being alarmist to this degree, because it gives a false picture of reality and we end up with bills like this one which I consider to be very alarming indeed.

It is all well and good to ask for zero tolerance, but should this necessarily mean lowering the age limit of offenders covered by the youth courts, should this mean more severe sentencing and releasing the names of repeat young offenders? This interpretation of zero tolerance is tantamount to telling all young offenders: get in there and stay there. That is the easy way out.

That is a fifties petit bourgeois attitude. The emphasis should not be on the sentencing aspect as much as on assistance, guidance and reintegration of the young offender.

Obviously, I am against the simplistic bill before the House today. If this proposal would help the government save money, a government that is flat broke, perhaps we could discuss it and consider the benefits from that angle. However, by increasing sentences and lowering the age at which one is considered to be young offender, we are merely filling up our prisons faster and adding to the number of unproductive young people who will be a burden on society for the rest of their lives.

Current public pressure for a stricter Young Offenders Act is understandable, especially in western Canada. Sensational cases reported in the media add to the skewed perception of the problem. However, reaching directly with amendments like these reflects some confusion about, and represents a major departure from, the objectives pursued by the Young Offenders Act passed in 1984, in other words, deterrence, rehabilitation and the protection of society.

In Quebec, we understand the main principles behind the protection of youth and society. When dealing with young offenders, we rely on rehabilitation and reintegration. As much as possible, we avoid criminalizing cases involving young offenders.

The Quebec Department of Health and Social Services and the Youth Protection Branch take care of young offenders and assist them. The results have been astonishing. In Quebec, we invest in rehabilitation because we believe in it. Statistics are extremely revealing in that respect. According to a very sound study conducted in Quebec between 1968 and 1983, it takes society less than five years to recoup the money it invests to rehabilitate young murderers and turn them into productive young adults who work, pay taxes and spend money, all of which keep the economy going.

In western Canada, they are understandably intolerant because they do not invest in their youth as we do. It is not one of their concerns. They do not seem to have the resources; they do not take care of young offenders who are left to fend for themselves. They just lock them up in a different part of the prison than the adults.

Our assessment of this bill illustrates how distinct a society Quebec is. You know, it is not only our language and culture which make us different from the rest of Canada, but also our beliefs, concerns and philosophy. We just do not see things the same way and the bill before us this morning is a case in point.

I would be remiss if I did not mention that the goal aimed at by the amendments proposed in this bill could be achieved through a stricter enforcement of the present Young Offenders Act. It appears that, in his bill, the Liberal member is seeking to make

young offenders accountable and responsible for their illegal actions so that they can be tried in a regular court.

In our justice system, teenagers charged with indictable offences are seldom tried in adult court, even though the April 1992 amendments make it easier.

Being doubly concerned with the rehabilitation of the young offender and the protection of society, lawyers and judges are not surprisingly very reluctant, one to ask for a trial in adult court, and the other to order it.

In Quebec, according to the information I have, transfer to an adult court is requested in no more than 5 per cent of all cases.

This reluctance is easily explained: If a young offender is found guilty in adult court he will receive a very stiff sentence, offering very little opportunity for rehabilitation. Moreover, he will be eligible for parole only after five or ten years, depending on whether the crime was first or second degree murder.

Why force the hand of the courts if, for legal and social reasons, they do not do it? Even though they can try some young offenders as adults, accountable and responsible for their actions, they rarely choose to do it. If the hon. member wishes to help society, he should instead introduce a bill to make the public more aware that a program offering help in a responsible manner affords better protection than a punitive measure, which is effective only as long as it is in force.

More than that, he should support a complete transfer of jurisdiction to the provinces, with the necessary budget. This way each province could deal with its young offenders as it chooses.

The deterrent effect sought by imposing longer sentences is not supported by the information available. In fact, the reverse in true according to Crime and Delinquency which, in its January issue, published the results of a study carried out in several American States proving that.

Like his government, the hon. member misses the target completely with this bill. If the Criminal Code needed amendments, it would be to force rehabilitation and reentry into the community for young offenders, but this is outside the jurisdiction of this House.

Society should be more tolerant and its objective should not be to make all young persons conform with what their environment, their family, their school and society itself expect of them, but to make them able to become independent, with the minimum of limitations, and to make their reentry a success.

[Rex Crawford, Liberal, Kent, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to rise today to speak in complete, full and total support of Bill C-217, an act to amend the Young Offenders Act, the Contraventions Act and the Criminal Code in consequence thereof. It was placed before the House by my colleague, the hon. member for York South-Weston. I congratulate him for the bill and for his distinguished efforts at drawing much needed attention to the issue of young offenders.

When I was first elected to the House of Commons one of my goals was to strengthen the Young Offenders Act. Recent events in my riding only give me greater resolve and strength to push for tougher sentences.

As many in the House may be aware the city of Chatham, Ontario, population 43,000, is still reeling from the brutal murder last week of seven-year old Daniel Miller. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time. A local teenage gang member has been charged with first degree murder in the beating death.

My heart goes out to the Miller family. They lost a son before the prime of his life, before he had a future. The slaying has sparked angry demonstrations and a series of petitions calling for action to prevent more violence.

A railroad bridge near where the boy's body was found was covered with graffiti by a group called Criminally Minded Corporations or CMC. A young concerned citizen painted the bridge on the weekend to erase the gutter language. The CMC is the best organized of six youth gangs in Chatham and boasts over 100 members. Many gang members wear army boots with symbolically coloured shoelaces.

In addition, this totally random act of murder is seemingly just one more example of the crumbling decline of our society, morals and family values. The day after, a 17-year-old was charged with assault causing bodily harm to a security guard who was watching over the abandoned yard where the murder took place.

Where does it end? Local parents and other citizens are calling for vigilante justice. They do not trust our current system of justice, that it lets off criminals with a slap on the wrist while the victims are left in limbo for the rest of their lives.

One resident, Jason Gale, who moved to Chatham recently with his two young daughters, mother and grandmother said this: "They are terrorizing people. I think if the people of Chatham started fighting back, if a few of these gang members got beaten up pretty bad or had something happen to them, I think a lot of it would stop". Is that where our society is today?

I appeal for calm and level heads to prevail in my riding. We must improve the justice system so that criminals are punished for their crimes. Bill C-217 is an important step in the right direction.

Several years ago the former Conservative government introduced some tougher sentences. For instance the maximum sentence for murder was increased to five years from three. I said at that time when the bill was introduced, and I will repeat it

today, that the current Young Offenders Act is too soft. It is a joke.

I have presented over 25,000 names on petitions collected by Roy Asselstine Jr. and his parents calling for a reinforcement of the act. I am told by lawyers and police that if some young people are involved with the Young Offenders Act it is a badge of honour. It is a measure of distinction. That is what they are saying on the streets. No ivory tower mentality of Parliament Hill is going to change that reality. It is a reality not just in Toronto, Montreal or Vancouver but also in many smaller cities such as Chatham.

Bill C-217 will augment the debate. As my friend from York South-Weston pointed out, his bill is endorsed by the Canadian Police Association and Victims of Violence and is co-sponsored by 17 members of Parliament.

The purpose of the bill is threefold. First, the young offender would now be between the ages of 10 and 15. As a result 16 and 17 year olds would be held responsible for their criminal acts and prosecuted in adult court. Second, the maximum penalty for first and second degree murder would be increased to 10 years from the current 5 years. Third, after a second conviction the young offender's name could be published.

These are reasonable improvements to the current Young Offenders Act which is not an effective deterrent and does not allow correctional officials a sufficient opportunity to rehabilitate young people. Bill C-217 goes a long way toward balancing the needs of the public as well as our youth.

Yes, we must work to prevent crime, to give hope to young people that their futures can be meaningful, that their lives can make a difference in this world of ours. Rehabilitation must be a vital component of any new law.

I am pleased to offer my backing to the bill. I urge hon. members to send it to the justice committee where it can receive more in-depth study.

In closing I have an article from the Chatham paper. The headline reads: "Family of teen beaten up by gang moves out of Maple City". These are the Asselstines whose son was beaten up by the gang CMC and hospitalized. On his release from hospital he and his parents went around the Chatham area getting signatures on a petition. They have been harassed ever since and have moved with no forwarding address. This is not what we want in our society today.

It is on their behalf and that of young Daniel Miller that I stand in the House in support of Bill C-217.

[Paul Forseth, Reform, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to basically support the bill as amendments to the Young Offenders Act are so very long overdue.

The issue certainly was up front during the election. There was always someone who was sure to bring it up at a local town hall meeting during the campaign.

Consequently, in view of such wide concern about problems with the act from right across Canada, it was with dismay we found listening from this side of the House that the government did not even give a mention of the Young Offenders Act in the throne speech. After subsequently pressing the government on that sorely misplaced priority, we have now had a number of promises from the justice minister that the government is moving on a series of amendments.

However, the timing of the long awaited government bill at last count is that it is to be introduced sometime in June. Based on the shifting sands of time of this government, one wonders if there will ever be a government bill amending the Young Offenders Act tabled before the House adjourns for the summer.

I am sure therefore it is with a backdrop of frustration that the member has introduced his own private member's bill. I have heard that the substantive part of it does not have the support of the government. From our observation, this is most disconcerting.

The Young Offenders Act has a title. This bill seeks to make the act live up to its name. The YOA should deal with young offenders, not youthful adults. I would certainly like to see more comprehensive adjustments to the act, however as far as this bill goes, we on this side are prepared to support it.

Specifically the bill is threefold. It lowers the age limits that define who is a young person for the operation of the act. It also allows the publication of the name of a young offender who has been convicted of an indictable offence on two previous occasions. This is a weak effort of improvement but certainly is a move in the right direction.

The bill also increases the maximum penalty for first and second degree murder to 10 years. This last point has been hinted at by the justice minister. However the bill at least leaves the other measures alone whereas the justice minister plans to give on one hand yet take away with the other by limiting the transfer provisions of the act.

My sympathies go out to the member that he is part of a group which is so out of touch with Canadians that he has to bring forward his own bill. Although the bill has timid half measures it still does not get the support of the cabinet.

I have been around at the operational level with young offenders since the days of working with the juvenile delin-

quents act. I recall all too well the federal-provincial conferences and negotiations for 10 years leading up to the passage of the YOA in the dying days of a previous Liberal government.

Canadians were assured in bold terms how the YOA struck the right balance. I also recall strong voices at the time, even in the House, of how the YOA sent the wrong message to the community and especially to young offenders.

We have now lived with the Young Offenders Act for about 10 years. It has been amended three times in response to community concern. It is the single piece of criminal legislation that is most vilified by the public. We have had 10 years of implementation. One would think over that period some semblance of accommodation would have resulted. However the opposite is true.

The verdict is in from the empirical evidence of operation in the field. The Young Offenders Act is fundamentally flawed because it arises from false assumptions of human nature and as we know best, top down attitude that the community really does not know what is good for it.

Reformers on this side have been calling for some time for a fundamental review because the community demands it. The murder rate has doubled since the death penalty was last used in 1962. Violent crime in general has increased even more. The basic point is that crime rates in general are too high.

We know who the offenders are. We need to protect the community and give more recognition to victims. We have considerable resources available for offenders. We should do more to provide opportunities for making self-reformation available for offenders. However the Young Offenders Act is way off track in respect of victims of youth crime.

In my riding the biggest outcry for the Young Offenders Act reform comes from high school students. They are all too well aware of what the street sentiment is about what happens to one of their own when they seriously offend against another student. Many students, especially females in high schools, are afraid. There is an atmosphere out there that nothing happens to young offenders. There are no real consequences. Law-abiding students have no confidence in the justice system.

Youth are in a period of learning where they resist limits. They kick against authority and watch how the community responds. The Young Offenders Act does the young no favours by sending the wrong message about violating the rights of others. The Young Offenders Act sends the wrong message to the community.

We check the newspaper today. Again we see that 16-year old Marwan Harb of Dompierre Street was pronounced dead at the hospital after being stabbed in the back. A 15-year old boy who was arrested two hours after the stabbing will be charged with murder.

A group of teens was walking through a park. Following an argument one of the boys punched Harb's girlfriend in the face. When Harb tried to defend her a fight broke out and he was stabbed in the back. It was a fight between a bunch of kids. It was not like a gang war. It was not racial. The victim and the accused knew each other through school. Upon being noticed the kids ran away, leaving Harb lying on the ground. Incidents like this that are repeated across Canada demonstrate that we need to address youth violence.

We have an atmosphere where youths carry weapons. There is little community consensus that we are accountable to an atmosphere of law and order and, if violated, offenders will be held to account. In some aspects we see youths behaving as if all law and order has broken down and they are living with the attitude of anarchy, every person for themselves; protect yourself because for no one else will.

The inter-relationship between law, its application and social order is complex. Yet in its simplest form,Canadians from across the country have indicated that the Young Offenders Act does not strike the right balance of deterrence to the individual, deterrence to others, victims' rights and opportunities to reform.

I recently drafted my own private member's bill that was rejected by the system as Bill C-217 was already in the hopper, working its way through. My bill was seen as being too similar. Unfortunately the bill is not votable but I commend the member for sending a message to his colleagues. I hope they wake up and get going with fundamental changes.

Reform Party members will have a lot to say in the future about a constructive alternative to the Young Offenders Act. We have been listening to the community. Our platform comes from the bottom up. The Reform Party national task force on law and order specified substantive changes to the Young Offenders Act and we will be bringing those forward.

Now is the time to support the voice of reason and practical reality. The Young Offenders Act needs changing. The bill although too modest in substance certainly goes in the right direction. Voices of this tone must be supported. The bill must not only be supported by like-minded individuals but must be supported in the name of young people right across the country. The misguided premise of the Young Offenders Act will eventually be fixed. Perhaps it will take a Reform Party government to do it.

In the meantime Her Majesty's loyal constructive alternative from this side of the House will support any voice of reason and balance to deal with the measures the community wants. Let us change the Young Offenders Act now and send a more realistic message to offenders and potential offenders that someone's

rights end where someone else's nose begins. Offending needs to be denounced.

We need a young offender law that is realistic in our culture, that balances the needs and the rights of the offender and the offended. The community must have confidence again in the justice system. That is why I support the inherent message of the bill.

[Len Hopkins, Liberal, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I want to say a few words on the bill this morning. I congratulate the hon. member for York South-Weston on bringing the issue forward. It is one that has been very much on the minds of all members of Parliament and certainly on the minds of the general public. There are some very succinct parts of the young offenders legislation that should be given a very serious look and review.

This issue is like any other major issue that arises and becomes a public concern. There are serious events that occur that bring the issue forward in the media. People feel that nothing is working. Something is working. Something is not. The something that is not working should be reviewed and repaired.

All legislation has to be changed from time to time to meet the trends and the changes that take place in society. However there is one thing I disagree with. As a former educator I hear some people saying that young offenders do not understand the implications of what they are doing. I can say, having taught many teenagers in my earlier days before coming to this institution, they understand what they are doing. No one needs to throw that argument out. It will not work.

The other sad part of this argument is the fact that some people automatically think that these people come from poor homes, no training and so on in the home. There are areas where this occurs. There are other cases where people are looked after in the home and they still go astray because peer pressure is very strong on them to join gangs and go in the wrong direction.

I spoke many times in the last Parliament on young offenders because we had a serious case in my constituency in the village of Barry's Bay. I think one of the major problems is that the plea bargaining that goes on in the courts is simply not justifiable and cannot be supported. I am glad to know that the justice committee at the direction of the government is making a serious review of this legislation and will probably be into it before June or, if not, during the month of June. I congratulate it on that.

The plea bargaining that goes on in our courts today has to be changed if we are going to change the Young Offenders Act and other legislation dealing with the criminal element. There is no way that we can allow lawyers to go on bargaining away the laws of the country. The laws of the country are put in the records of Parliament, put in legislation to be carried out. That is the intent of the legislators who pass them.

I am absolutely opposed to handing it over to a group of lawyers and the court and the crown and saying: "You drop this, I will take that". In the end you have a situation similar to one that was brought to my attention recently by the hon. member for Victoria-Haliburton. A person goes into a store with a sawed-off shotgun, holds up the store, gets away, is finally caught and brought into court. When he is sentenced he gets four months and he will probably be out in two and a half months. They used to get 10, 12 and 15 years for armed robbery.

That is not justice in the eyes of the public and the punishment certainly does not fit the crime. These are things that have to be changed.

We cannot have people committing crimes in this country and walking away laughing at the law. That is indeed what is going on. We cannot have people going down the streets and shooting a top-notch graduate student on a sidewalk in Ottawa, Toronto or anywhere else, destroying good lives.

The system has to be seriously reviewed, not just reviewed and looked at and talked about and so on. I wish the justice committee well as it does this later. I thank the hon. member for York South-Weston for bringing the issue before the House and giving us a chance to discuss it. I know he is very serious about having the bill adopted for further study and brought before the justice committee.

The bottom line here, and I do not like using that term because it is usually used in an unsophisticated manner, or the real essence of law is that legislators pass laws hopefully to be obeyed, hopefully to be administered, hopefully not to allow a loophole where the law can be bargained away for those who want to get the case over with and win cases for people who should not be on the streets. When someone does get out on the street early and commits another crime, up goes another big sympathy wave saying: "Oh, this person shouldn't be out on the street".

He should not have been out on the street. The law has to be administered. Some of it is already on the books so that when a person is in prison he or she should not be out of incarceration until they have had medical treatment and are deemed by medical authorities to be capable of running their own lives, leading a decent life out on the streets and byways.

If there is anything that we are going to have to improve along with this legislation, it is to make sure that the treatment, medical care and the advising are in place to bring these young people back into a productive way of life.

There are some who have come under the Young Offenders Act who are now very productive in society. We have to recognize that side, too. It is not a one-sided picture. We can only try to perfect it if we try to correct the things that are not working in it today.

I want to review briefly the things that I have touched on. There is the medical treatment of these people, ensuring that the plea bargaining system is changed so that it is going to back up the law that we put on the books, the publishing of names of young offenders as indicated in the hon. member's private members' bill this morning and the fact that these young people do know what they are doing.

Let us go at this in a very constructive way and correct what is working to complement that which is working today.

[Jim Abbott, Reform, Kootenay East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I stand today to support Bill C-217. I support it in principle as has been explained by another member of my party. There are some aspects on which we would like to see some fine tuning.

Any move in this direction is a move that will work in favour of our most valuable asset in Canada, our young people. Our young people are the ones who are the most disadvantaged by the current Young Offenders Act.

I agree with the member for York South-Weston totally that the bill should have been votable. It really shows something wrong with the system when we can have a votable bill on whether hockey should be Canada's national sport but for something like this that works directly against the young people, the greatest asset of Canada, we are not going to vote on it. I find that really outstanding.

Young people come to me quite frequently. They say: "As a high school student my biggest problem is that I recognize that I am under a cloud". I suspect that for many members and their constituents, when they see young people on a bus or gathered somewhere they assume the worst because there are some bad apples.

We must make changes to the Young Offenders Act not only for property values or violence but primarily to support Canada's greatest asset, our young people. Many of those young people are involved in things like science fairs. They are very exciting events to attend. I commend them to all members and to the public.

Many of them belong to school clubs and organizations. They belong to sports teams. Many are involved in cadets, scouts or guides. Many belong to churches, young people's groups or counsel at summer camp as counsellors. They are involved in marching bands, 4-H clubs, forestry camps, computer clubs, sports clubs and camps. Those who are actively involved are the people who are the most disadvantaged by this law.

We as adults have to get our priorities straight. Let us protect our greatest asset. Many of our young people are involved in summer work. Often we think of summer work as kind of a make work kind of a thing. As members know, without the inclusion in the work force of our young people, many of the things that get cleaned up in the summertime would not get cleaned up. They help with tourist and recreation facilities. They act as information for business.

I say that parents have to be involved in education of the young people. They have to be involved in guidance of the young people. They have to be involved-

[John Nunziata, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I apologize to the hon. member for interrupting his speech but the rules require that the debate end in about a minute's time.

I understand that a good number of members would like to take part in this debate. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice has stood. He would like to speak. I am sure the hon. member would like to conclude his remarks so I would seek the unanimous consent of the House to extend the debate on this most important subject matter for an additional hour until one o'clock.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Is there unanimous consent?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Deputy Speaker]

There does not appear to be unanimous consent. I believe the hon. member had a second point of order.

[John Nunziata, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Mr. Speaker, can you indicate who denied unanimous consent? I did not hear anything from this end.

[The Deputy Speaker]

The member, if he had been sitting here, certainly would have heard something.

[John Nunziata, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

It is unfortunate, Mr. Speaker, considering the comparative importance of the next bill we are supposed to debate to the people of Canada. However those who denied unanimous consent will have to account to their constituents and to the people of Canada why they think that an hour's debate on the Young Offenders Act is too much.

In view of the importance of the legislation, I would seek the unanimous consent of the House to adopt the bill at second reading, in principle, and to refer the bill to the justice committee for further consideration.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Is there unanimous consent?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Once again I must advise members that there is no unanimous consent on this side.

[John Nunziata, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

I rise on a further point of order, Mr. Speaker. The separatists will have to explain to the rest of Canada why they do not want to debate or even discuss the bill.

I will try once again. Rather than adopting the bill at second reading I would ask that the subject matter of the Young Offenders Act, not the bill before Parliament, be referred to the committee so that all members will have an opportunity to discuss the subject matter at committee.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Is there unanimous consent to refer the subject matter of the bill to committee?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Again there is no unanimous consent.

The time provided for the consideration of Private Members' Business has now expired. Pursuant to Standing Order 96(1), this item is dropped from the Order Paper.