Debates of May 2nd, 1994

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-16, an act to approve, give effect to and declare valid an agreement between Her Majesty the Queen in right of Canada and the Dene of Coville Lake, Déline, Fort Good Hope and Fort Norman and the Metis of Fort Good Hope, Fort Norman and Norman Wells, as represented by the Sahtu Tribal Council, and to make related ammendments to another Act, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Sahtu Dene And Metis Land Claimsettlement Act

[The Deputy Speaker]

The hon. member for Crowfoot had the floor before Question Period. I believe he has 15 minutes left in his speech.

[Jack Ramsay, Reform, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, continuing with my speech on Bill C-16, I submit that a strong, economically self-reliant Sahtu nation will be a benefit to all Canadians.

This agreement also provides for a transfer of funds from the Canadian taxpayer amounting to $130 million over the next 15 years. This amounts to over $8 million a year. These funds are apparently designated for areas such as education, training and heritage preservation.

I am sure that Canadians would support this transfer of tax dollars for these purposes as well as the allocation of the land involved. However, I do not believe that the Canadian people will support these articles of the agreement unless there is a clear indication that the financial dependency on the taxpayer will end some time in the future.

This agreement provides no such assurance. In fact, it is clear from the agreement that the Sahtu's right to receive benefits from existing or future aboriginal programs will continue, therefore continuing the dependency which this government contends will be extinguished by this agreement. This defeats the purpose of the agreement itself.

In this connection I would like to comment on an article in the Globe and Mail . According to a March 29, 1994 report the federal government has spent more than $50 million on self-government negotiations with native groups over the past seven years, yet it has produced only one agreement. About 400 native communities have entered self-government talks but most have abandoned the process because it is long, bureaucratic, limited and legalistic.

According to the Globe and Mail , this was the finding of a federal audit. The audit apparently described a host of weaknesses in the federal policy for negotiating self-government deals at the community level and concluded that the process is long, cumbersome and expensive.

Federal payments to native groups for the negotiations jumped by 500 per cent since the process began in the 1986-87 fiscal year. The department of Indian affairs has given $30 million to aboriginal groups for the talks and has spent a further $20 million on internal operating costs.

The department has spent $50 million creating a cottage industry around these negotiations, where lawyers and political leaders are the only ones who benefit while the deplorable living conditions of the individual aboriginal person has not changed as a result of the expenditure of these funds.

I suggest the weaknesses evident in the Sahtu agreement are a reflection of the flawed negotiation process identified by the federal audit. The interests of the Canadian taxpayer are not protected in the agreement.

Within the agreement the means exist by which the Sahtu nation can continue to demand that the federal government tax the wealth of Canadians for their use, in spite of the enormous land mass assigned to these people, the significant resource royalties agreed to and the multimillion dollar cash settlement provided.

This is neither fair to the Sahtu nation nor the Canadian taxpayer. It is unfair to the taxpayer because there is no end to the financial support demanded and unfair to the Sahtu people because it does not end their dependency on the Canadian taxpayer and therefore is not a formula for self-reliance.

A final area of concern to many Canadians is that this agreement creates entitlements and rights based on race and ethnic origin and will be as racist a document as is the Indian Act. The agreement will create special status for the Sahtu nation based on race and destroys the principle of equality of citizenship in that all Canadians ought to stand equal before the law.

This does not bode well for the future unity of our country. I believe the intolerable conditions faced by aboriginal people is due to the fact that for many years they did not have equal rights in Canada. They were discriminated against at all levels of society. Their language, religion and culture were suppressed. Job opportunities were non-existent for the majority of aboriginal people.

In order to correct the situation we must ensure they stand equal before the law. If we grant them special status, harmony and unity will not be the result.

While the rest of the world, including South Africa, is bringing the barriers down between races and ethnic groups, we are in the process of erecting them through agreements such as this. We saw it in the Meech Lake accord, the Charlottetown accord and we are seeing it again in this agreement. People are being granted special rights and privileges based on race and ethnic origin.

These rights and privileges are being paid for by the Canadian taxpayer. The formula cannot succeed in a multicultural society such as Canada. We must ensure that all Canadians stand equal before the law regardless of race, language, culture or religion.

This may be the greatest failing of the Sahtu agreement. It grants special rights based on race and ethnic origin and in doing so destroys the principle of equality of citizenship in Canada.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Members should know that we have now passed the five hour point in the debate, so we now go to 10 minutes speeches and no questions or comments, starting with the member who is about to be recognized. The hon. member for Peace River.

[Charlie Penson, Reform, Peace River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I live in one of those large northern ridings where there are many reserves and Metis settlements.

I am very concerned about the precedent the government is setting with this overly generous settlement. I support the concept of self-sufficiency and self-reliance inherent in the successful land claim settlement process. In no way do I argue with the principle.

However I encourage the government to dismantle the department of Indian affairs and let the people involved conduct their own affairs. This approach develops responsibility and places decision-making in the hands of those most directly involved.

Let us deal with the magnitude of the settlement. Seventeen hundred and fifty-five people will be receiving a financial package of $130 million, including interest. The land being handed over is equivalent to eight square miles per person.

I will put this into perspective. When my forefathers came to Canada in 1869, over 100 years ago, they received 210 acres of farmland in the Muskoka Lakes area for a family of nine people. By comparison each person, not each family, receives a settlement of 5,120 acres. With this kind of generosity I do not think there is any doubt how these 1,755 people will be voting in the future.

My own farm operation in northwestern Alberta, one that my wife and I have built up over 30 years, involves 1,280 acres, two sections of farmland. Compare this to eight sections per person in the settlement. I know a lot of farmers who would not mind finding out that their land was being claimed as a settlement and getting a payout under this generous rate.

Let us not forget that the original treaty agreement called for each person to receive just 120 acres, about 5,000 acres less than is now being proposed.

In addition to the more than generous settlement of land and money, the people involved will still enjoy their aboriginal status and still have access to all present and future aboriginal programs, as well as access to resource development.

My colleagues have spoken about the very great potential for resource development in the area. The agreement allows the Sahtu to have shared resource revenue resulting from development, something which most Canadians do not enjoy.

In conclusion, it is clear that the government is setting a very bad precedent, one it will be pressured into meeting in future claims. We all know a lot of land claim settlements need to be resolved in the future. I think this one is a very bad precedent indeed. It comes at a time when our country is staggering under a burdensome debt. We cannot afford this kind of settlement.

I suggest we send the bill back to the drawing board. The government can do better. It must do better.

[Darrel Stinson, Reform, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to oppose the rubber stamping of this massive, open-ended and precedent setting agreement with the people of the Great Bear Lake in the Northwest Territories called the Sahtu Dene and Metis comprehensive land claim agreement.

First let me state that I am strongly in favour of prompt settlement of native land claims, as well as encouragement toward self-government on a tribe by tribe basis.

Why then would I oppose Bill C-16? It is for the following reasons. First, because the agreement is a blank cheque, a giveaway, of non-renewable natural resources plus resource royalties which belong to all the people of Canada.

Second, instead of simply protecting aboriginal rights and providing a municipal type ownership of major settlement areas, this is a massive transfer of land in fee simple ownership to a very tiny percentage of our national population.

Third, it is a complex, open-ended agreement with a number of provisions no sensible person should sign regarding his own personal affairs, let alone the affairs of the nation.

Regarding resources, the sparsely settled basin of the Mackenzie River today largely remains a unexplored and underdeveloped treasure trove. Although an oil glutted Canada turned down the Mackenzie Valley pipeline in 1977 and passed a 10-year moratorium, future developments and future needs of a resource starved nation may yet see us looking toward this region as a major transportation corridor, with the addition to tugs, freight barges and native fishing boats plying a river whose volume of fresh water is surpassed in Canada only by the St. Lawrence.

The Mackenzie basin's largely unknown mineral resources nevertheless have inspired the mining rushes of Yellowknife, the Great Bear Lake and the Canol project for oil and gas.

Government policies today are seriously injuring a once mighty mining industry, but a wiser future government might once again see thousands of jobs in resource development in the Mackenzie basin whose already known riches include Yellowknife's gold and possibly diamonds, Uranium City and Echo Bay's uranium, the tungsten of Flat River and Faro's lead and zinc, in addition to the petroleum of Norman Wells and the Athabasca tar sands.

As a miner and prospector, I challenge the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development and the Minister of Natural Resources to tell the people of Canada how many millions of dollars in non-renewable resource wealth this agreement gives away forever by ceding mineral rights to 1,800 square kilometres of a mineral rich Mackenzie basin to the 982 adults and 773 children of the Sahtu Dene and Metis.

In addition to 15 annual cash payments of between $3.8 million and $9.6 million in 1990 dollars; in addition to a percentage of oil and gas royalties received by the government within the settlement area and including the Norman Wells oil field operated by Esso; these two ministers are prepared to hand the 982 adults and 733 children a blank cheque for mineral resources.

I would be intrigued to learn when in aboriginal history oil and gas and other mineral exploration development became an aboriginal right.

My second objection to Bill C-16 is that the agreement takes away from common ownership by all the people of Canada, an area larger than the combined land mass of Vancouver Island plus the Fraser Valley plus the Okanagan Valley where I live and hand this entire area over in fee simple ownership once again to 982 adults and 733 children.

As I stated, I am strongly in favour of settling native land claims promptly and encouraging our aboriginal people to move toward self-government on a tribe by tribe basis. I would have no objection to an agreement recognizing special rights of the Sahtu Dene and Metis to such renewable resources as hunting and fishing as carried on in native communities prior to colonial contact.

I might even see myself agreeing as part of self-government for these people a municipal type ownership being vested in the appropriate bands regarding their major settlement areas of Fort Good Hope, Colville Lake, Deline, Fort Norman and Norman Wells.

However according to a brief prepared by Melvin Smith, Q.C.: "No court in Canada of which I am aware, has decided that an aboriginal interest in land goes so far as to entitle aboriginal people to fee simple or full ownership".

My colleagues and I in the Reform Party on behalf of all the people of Canada are opposed to settling native land claims by handing over the fee simple ownership of massive chunks of land. We believe it would be far more appropriate for this House, as guardians of the rights of all Canadians, including generations yet unborn, to give native people special rights to hunting and fishing and to guarantee native people special representation on all governmental bodies having jurisdiction over water use and land use in land claim areas. It is more than excessive. We believe it is foolhardy and contravenes the right to equality of treatment for all citizens of this enormous country to hand over so much land in fee simple ownership.

Moving on to my third point, I see this agreement as having many serious flaws. For example there is a map accompanying this agreement which gives the impression that a certain specific piece of land has been decided upon. This is simply not true.

Appendix C to the agreement goes into some detail to describe the process for land selection which allows the Sahtu Tribal Council and the government to pursue the process of land identification and selection. In other words, this bill is asking Parliament to endorse giving away a huge tract of land which has not yet been specifically defined.

Pages 119 and 120 of the agreement are similarly open-ended. Section 26.4 merely appoints a working group to consider and make recommendations regarding a list of heritage places and sites. Also page 120 is blank, except for this note: "Sahtu Dene and Metis sacred sites. To be completed by parties".

Can signing this open-ended agreement be considered proper guardianship? Can signing this agreement be considered careful stewardship of a land which belongs today to our grandchildren? I say no.

Another aspect of this agreement which I find troubling is the multiplication of quasi-governmental boards. For example it will create renewable resource councils for each community. It will also create boards for renewable resources, for land use planning, for surface rights, for reviewing environmental im-

pact as well as land and water boards. Of course, there is an arbitration board.

I an told this government plans to introduce later in 1994 the Mackenzie River resource management act. This will spawn even more boards and panels to co-ordinate all those other boards and councils and panels and to regulate land and water uses that cross the settlement areas.

In view of the fact there are only 982 adults in the Sahtu Dene and Metis, one might be forgiven for wondering who will be left to carry on the traditional native pursuits of hunting, fishing and trapping when they are going to have so many councils and boards and panels to sit on?

[The Deputy Speaker]

The member's time with the 10-minute limit has expired. I wonder if he wishes to seek unanimous consent to go on a bit longer.

Is there unanimous consent to let the member complete his remarks?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Darrel Stinson, Reform, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Mr. Speaker, unfortunately the answer is that probably a significant part of the cash payment going to these natives supposedly for their good will be used to hire white lawyers and social workers and negotiators and other greedy hangers-on of the so-called Indian industry to deal with this agreement's miles of red tape.

Finally, in regard to future self-government for these people, this agreement provides a framework of sorts in appendix B. But it also says that in case of disputes this agreement takes precedence over future self-government agreements.

Also, according to the Indian affairs minister, it takes precedence over other federal, territorial and municipal laws as stated in Hansard on April 25. I believe it is wrong to set a precedent whereby any native land claim agreement should be allowed to trample all existing federal, territorial or provincial laws and municipal laws in the land claim area.

In conclusion, I wish to extend my personal best wishes to the Sahtu Dene and Metis people in their efforts to obtain a prompt, just settlement of their land claims. I can see that many people have spent many hours and much effort on this agreement, but I strongly object to some of its basic principles.

[Diane Ablonczy, Reform, Calgary North, AB]

Mr. Speaker, in participating in this debate today as this House examines the wisdom of supporting Bill C-16, the Sahtu land claim agreement, I have been fortunate in having the benefit of hearing the many thoughtful, sincere and well-informed arguments made by members from all parties. I would like to acknowledge their contribution to this debate and thank them for it. Their perspectives have been a great help to Canadians in weighing this initiative, the Sahtu land claim agreement.

It is always difficult to express any reservations about such an initiative. As we have seen already in this debate to do so brings down swift charges of lack of compassion, fairness and generosity.

I doubt if any representative of the people of Canada cares to be depicted in such harsh terms. However, someone surely has the duty and obligation to weigh agreements such as this in a thoughtful and reasoned way, especially since the well-being of the people directly affected, the people represented by the Sahtu Tribal Council, is an issue. In addition the interests of all Canadians, the 27 million people whose welfare is entrusted to the 295 representatives chosen to sit in this Chamber must also be weighed and considered.

It is plain to see that many of Canada's native peoples live in social and economic conditions that are appalling in a country with the third highest standard of living in the entire world. There has been a little verbal sparring about whether these individuals would now be enjoying a pastoral existence of self-sufficiency if they had been left as the sole inhabitants of this vast land that we know and love as Canada.

The present reality is that Canada is home to more than 27 million people from many other lands due to a policy of immigration that has been maintained by Canadian governments from the very first one to this present one. The process of immigration will not be reversed. Our duty therefore is to make decisions on behalf of all Canadians that are good and right and just and in light of current and foreseeable future realities.

For decades Canada's decision makers have attempted to ensure that the needs and aspirations of Canadians of native origin are met and looked after by the creation of a huge bureaucracy costing in excess of $10 billion each year. That is over $10,000 per capita for Canada's 997,000 aboriginals. Unfortunately very little of this money actually reaches the individuals for whom it was intended. Instead, it is used to fuel an ever growing bureaucracy.

It is painfully evident this multiplication of tax funded bureaucrats, advisors, consultants, lawyers, studies, programs, grants and politicians has done little to assist the plight of the vast majority of native peoples. Instead, a deplorable state of dependency, surrender of initiative and erosion of pride and values has resulted.

Does the agreement before us resolutely and energetically redress this ineffective approach of the past? No, not at all. Instead, it leaves in place the approaches that have allowed the present state of affairs and then incredibly adds to them with yet more boards and councils.

Will self-esteem and initiative be restored to the Sahtu people through receiving a windfall of thousands of dollars to each individual? There is no provision, no process put in place that would permit this newly acquired purchasing power to be used to hold the Sahtu's own leaders and advisors accountable to them. I strongly recommend that this element of democratic accountability be considered an essential dynamic in the coming self-government negotiations.

Further, the agreement is silent on any obligation for the Sahtu to be subject to the federal laws of Canada, including the charter. This requirement surely ought to have been made explicit in the section dealing with the provision for negotiation of self-government agreements.

The biggest concern raised by this agreement is the precedent it sets. It is not difficult to show expansive generosity with land that few Canadians will ever need or use when the number of people compensated is minuscule, less than 2,000.

What happens when the same process affects a land base that is directly vital to the personal and economic interests of not only a significant number of Canadians but to municipal and provincial governments as well? How will the Government of Canada then be able to offer the same level of land and cash to significantly larger numbers of native people? If it cannot, will it be able to justify to those claimants a different level of compensation and settlement? Have these fundamental issues of fairness and equity been thought through?

Since everything awarded to one group must be paid for from the resources and work of the rest, this is a question which also will affect the interests of all of us as the claims process proceeds with other native groups across the country. This is especially so because, as others have also pointed out, the settlement awarded here does not extinguish or even diminish the huge cost of existing programs extended to native peoples.

I would like to say that the federal government ought to be praised for many aspects of this proposal. It recognizes the need to move expeditiously to resolve such claims. A resolution of this nature is long overdue in fairness to native Canadians and for certainty to all. The cost of such settlements increases dramatically when there is delay in reaching agreement.

We would also applaud the fact that the people affected were directly consulted and their approval obtained prior to proceeding with this agreement. There is also a healthy element of self-determination in the proposed arrangement when it comes to resources and land use. I believe Canadians would support that especially if it could lead to self-sufficiency and placed the Sahtu on the same level of contribution to the country's well-being as other Canadians.

I also believe that so long as all Canadians are subject to the same federal laws and charter, an accommodation of community customs and values at the local judicial level will benefit the administration of justice in the region.

In short, there is much that is positive in this agreement. However I believe this government needs to accept the many expressions of concern about the specifics of the agreement and consider them in the constructive spirit in which such criticisms are intended.

The deficiencies in the agreement ought to be rectified and addressed before the bill is passed in this House.

(Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to a committee.)

Migratory Birds Convention Act, 1994

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, for the Minister of the Environment]

moved that Bill C-23, an act to implement a convention for the protection of migratory birds in Canada and the United States, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

[Clifford Lincoln, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, as part of its plan to modernize Canada's wildlife legislation, the federal government has brought forward this day amendments to the Migratory Birds Convention Act.

In 1916 Canada and the United States signed the migratory birds convention to protect species of migratory birds common to both countries. Bird populations were declining rapidly at the turn of the century and in 1917, Parliament implemented the convention by passing the Migratory Birds Convention Act which regulated the hunting and use of migratory birds and prohibited their trafficking and commercialization.

The legislation also provided for the establishment of migratory bird sanctuaries. Today there are a total of 101 migratory bird sanctuaries in Canada covering roughly 11.3 million hectares of land.

There have been only minor amendments to the act since 1917. It has become suddenly outdated. It no longer provides our migratory birds with the protection they need. Seventy-seven years in the continental management of migratory birds have taught us some important lessons. It is time to put these

lessons to work and to modernize the legislation through early action on the bill.

The government's amendments to the act will update the definitions in the act. It will make them appropriate for migratory bird protection as we enter the 21st century. The act's prohibitions will be clarified.

The provisions of the act are being modernized, particularly with regard to administration and enforcement, because the old act no longer provides effective means or penalties to deter law breakers. This is especially true with regard to poaching and with regard to illegal commercial uses of migratory birds.

As is pointed out in the global convention on biological diversity which Canada signed, a strong and effective legislative program is an important part of any strategy to conserve and protect our natural resources.

Poaching is a serious crime. By killing protected migratory birds, poachers destroy a wildlife heritage common to all Canadians and to all inhabitants of countries which share, benefit from and depend on these birds. Amendments to the legislation call for increasing possible fines to a maximum of $25,000 or imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months, or both. Provision is also made for additional fines in an amount equal to the monetary benefits accrued as a result of the commission of the offence. Furthermore, under the proposed amendments, the courts would be able to make sentencing orders directed at the lawbreaker. The courts would be given increased authority to deal with lawbreakers. Provision is also made by issuing tickets.

Moreover, amendments provide for harsher treatment for illegal commercial transactions such as the sale of products, the sale of companion birds and the illegal organized hunting of large numbers of birds. Fines for illegal commercial transactions would correspond to the nature of the offence and could include the seizure of weapons, vehicles, boats, aircraft and even companies used by the guilty parties in the commission of the offence.

Updating the Migratory Birds Convention Act will help ensure that populations of birds are maintained at sustainable levels. Amendments to the act were developed only after extensive consultations with affected interested parties, including the provinces and territories, the aboriginal groups, conservation groups and other non-government organizations, hunters and ordinary citizens. The proposed changes have been requested by all provinces and territories and by many interested groups.

The federal government carries out its responsibilities for migratory birds through a strong partnership with the provinces and territories. Provincial and territorial wildlife agencies assist in migratory bird enforcement. Various types of protected areas form one network for havens for migrating wildlife, whether they sanctuaries be federal, provincial or territorial in jurisdiction.

These amendments will strengthen that partnership even further. For example, with the agreement of the provinces and territories, designation of conservation officers for the purposes of enforcing the Migratory Birds Convention Act will be made easier. Any seizures of illegally obtained wildlife could be sold with the proceeds going to the provinces, the territories or the federal government as appropriate.

The amendments will help us become better and more effective stewards of our migratory bird sanctuaries as part of an overall concept of flexible landscape and ecosystem management. For example, at certain times of the year, such as the breeding season, quite strict protection measures might be called for, perhaps to prevent beach goers from walking on plovers' eggs. At other times of the year uses may be more flexible. Good law, good enforcement and good management can help us sustain our ecosystems.

Set in the broader perspective of both the Migratory Birds Convention Act and the convention it implements, this is one of the safeguards concerning one aspect in a series of global or hemisphere-wide partnerships to protect birds and other wildlife as well as their habitats.

These partnerships take the form of land conservation programs like the Canadian Wildlife Service Latin American Program in which Canada and its Latin American neighbours join together to preserve the southern habitats of our common visitors. They also include the Biodiversity Convention, a global instrument as I indicated earlier.

This spinoff from the UNCED recognizes the value of wildlife and its habitat for the world. And this value stems from the fact that fauna and flora are part of a natural heritage without compare, represent a major socioeconomic resource and play a growing role as a general health status indicator for increasingly stressed ecosystems. Gulls and cormorants are valuable for instance to show the level of environmental disruption in the Great Lakes and St. Lawrence region.

We must not forget the important contribution to our economy made by activities related to fish, fauna and flora. As a matter of fact, Statistics Canada indicated that Canadians and American tourists have spent, in 1991 alone, $1.4 billion on recreation activities involving water birds. Not only has spending in that area helped maintain over 30,000 jobs, but it has generated close to $1 billion in personal income and $743 million in federal and provincial tax revenues.

I would like to stress that only very minor changes were made to the Migratory Birds Convention Act. We must therefore proceed as quickly as possible with these amendments.

The provisions of the act are being modernized particularly with regard to administration and enforcement because the old act no longer provides the effective means of penalties to deter law breakers. This is especially true with regard to poaching and illegal commercial uses of migratory birds. As pointed out in the global convention on biological diversity which Canada has signed, a strong and effective legislative program is a key part of any strategy to conserve and protect natural resources.

Therefore the government's amendments to the act will update definitions in the act. It will make them appropriate for migratory bird protection as we enter the 21st century. The act's prohibition will be clarified.

I urge all members of the House, regardless of political party, to support the bill very strongly. It represents a big step forward in our common goal toward sustainable development.

I hope that all the hon. members of this House will strongly support this bill.

[Benoît Sauvageau, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Mr. Speaker, as assistant critic for the environment and sustainable development, it is a pleasure for me to speak on Bill C-23.

This bill seeks to modernize and update a law dating back to 1917. To understand it better, I think that we have to go back a little into our history and look at the situation at the turn of the century. In the early 1900s, there was considerable exploitation of migratory birds and trade in them. As a result, their numbers dropped drastically. The need to intervene to end this illicit trade and to protect the species was increasingly urgent.

In 1916, Canada and the United States signed the Migratory Birds Convention. The next year, in 1917, Parliament passed the Migratory Birds Convention Act. The provisions of this Act seek to regulate the hunting of migratory birds and to prevent traffic and trade in them.

Through permits, this law controls the use made of migratory birds. Several aspects of the 1917 law are obsolete today. For example, the penalties provided in the Act are no longer what society is entitled to expect. Fines from $10 to $300 are provided for infractions. Bill C-23 as presented today increases these penalties very significantly.

Amounts of up to $5,000 and even $25,000 provided in clause 13(1) will deter poachers, we hope. The evolution of our society and the example of penalties alone show the importance of updating and modernizing this law, of strengthening the enforcement rules and clarifying the procedures.

For us in the Bloc Quebecois, several aspects of this law are of great interest. As I said in the introduction to my speech, it was very necessary to update the legislation. In particular, we hope to add that not only birds, their eggs and nests are protected but also their embryos and tissue cultures.

We think that this provision is essential; given the evolution of biotechnology and the amazing possibilities that exist or will exist in this regard, this provision is most desirable. Clearly, however, such a scientific achievement was unimaginable in 1917 and the law could not include such a clause.

According to various environmental groups, millions of wild birds are illegally captured, poisoned or driven from their nests throughout the world. Therefore it is appropriate for us to legislate in this way in view of this phenomenon.

We learned in the Saskatoon Star Phoenix last January and in La Presse that 1,000 of 9,600 bird species were in danger of extinction; that is, more than 10 per cent of our birds could disappear very soon. We agree that the situation is urgent.

An article in the March 24 issue of La Presse contained some comments on the seriousness of the situation. The author showed that 70 per cent of existing species in the world are in decline. According to one study he quotes, the illegal trade in wild birds is a growing threat to the species, especially in Southeast Asia. World Watch , an American magazine, gives some of the reasons why the number of birds is decreasing in Canada and throughout the world, and I quote: ``Most bird species are in decline because the natural balance is upset by the global expansion of mankind''.

Of course, the problems caused by deforestation due to farmland expansion or urban spread, industrial and domestic pollution are but a few of the factors contributing to the declining number of birds in Canada and throughout the world. In North America alone, deforestation may have caused the alarming reduction in bird population in 250 species breeding on its territory.

As I said earlier, we must speak up on the illegal trade in birds. According to a study by the World Wide Fund for Nature, this lucrative trade is growing by leaps and bounds. In the last 20 years, 2,600 species have been identified among those traded. This commercial activity is flourishing in Southeast Asia. To the

five million birds traded each year must be added an estimated three million in China.

We are in a position to realize that this kind of trade affects much more than our two countries. We are legislating on a bilateral Canada-U.S. solution but we must also see the problem as a whole.

Serious allegations have led us to consider this problem from an international standpoint. Some airlines will not transport wild birds. That is fine. However, the article from the WWF goes on to say: "Singapore proclaimed itself the hub of this trade for the whole region". Because of loopholes in the legislation, wild birds illegally exported from Indonesia, Thailand or Malaysia become legal goods when they go through Singapore.

You might say we are a long way from our bill on migratory birds in Canada and in the United States, but we are not. Environmental problems such as acid rain, the ozone layer, dangerous goods and many others know no boundaries. And the impact here of these various problems require us to take a stand.

Clearly, Bill C-23 is a positive measure in this context. We cannot oppose a good initiative. However, the international scope of the problem probably requires a worldwide approach as well.

It is because problems related to the ozone layer have such an international dimension that the Montreal Protocol was signed with several countries. The issue of importing and exporting dangerous goods could not be solved with a national piece of legislation. Again, several sovereign states had to agree on regulations concerning the exchange and transportation of such goods. Canada could be the leader in this field and set, through an international convention, standards which would provide some protection to this species.

I will conclude by reaffirming my support to Bill C-23, but I also want to remind you of some proposed legal principles for environmental protection and sustainable development, which are approved by Canada.

Article two of these principles provides that: "States shall conserve and use the environment and natural resources for the benefit of present and future generations". Article three says: "States shall maintain ecosystems and ecological processes essential for the functioning of the biosphere, shall preserve biological diversity, and shall observe the principle of optimum sustainable yield in the use of living natural resources and ecosystems".

In article 8, we see that the States shall co-operate in good faith with other States in implementing the preceding rights and obligations.

These are only 3 of the 22 principles for environmental protection, as found in the Brundtland report entitled Our Common Future .

I would urge the Canadian government to look forward when it deals with environmental protection and sustainable development, but to keep in mind all the agreements already signed. In this case, we have no other choice but to protect the migratory birds. However, we should be careful in doing so not to impinge on other jurisdictions. Too often, our legislation grants too much discretionary power to the minister, who can choose to enforce only parts of the law. We do not think this is the case with this bill. That is why my party and I want the bill to be referred to a committee who will seek to improve it.

Together, let us protect the endangered species.

[Jim Abbott, Reform, Kootenay East, BC]

I am very pleased today to stand and say that the Reform Party is in support of Bill C-23 at second reading. It is an act to protect migratory birds. Of course, we think of birds and wildlife together.

I have the good fortune of coming from a very wonderful constituency. Of course all members in the House say that, but my constituency is so wonderful that it happens to contain three of Canada's national parks. My riding has Kootenay National Park, Yoho National Park and Glacier National Park, which gives you an idea of the grandeur of the area I represent.

In addition, we also have an area called the Columbia River wetlands. The Columbia River wetlands are 180 kilometres long. They are comprised of a 26,000 hectare flood plain. I would like to read a short section from a brochure by B.C. Wildlife with respect to the Columbia River's hydrological cycle.

The habitats within the Columbia River flood plain provide food, shelter and cover for an exceptionally large number of birds and mammals. Waterfowl comprising the most abundant and observable species group utilize the wetlands for breeding and brood rearing, for refuge during the flightless periods of the moult, and for feeding and resting during spring and fall migrations. Single counts have revealed more than 15,000 ducks in the autumn, more than 1,000 whistling swans in the spring.

I should say that I also have the good fortune of living just south of this area. I have seen these whistling swans in the lake in front of my home. They are absolutely beautiful birds.

The rare trumpeter swan also appears in migration. Breeding Canada geese number some 1,200 pairs. Other birds sharing the wetlands are loons, gulls, terns, rails, bitterns, hawks, bald eagles, ospreys and 100 or so species of songbirds. Colonies of great blue herons comprising some 300 pairs constitute the second largest concentration in western Canada.

Up to 90 per cent of the elk, 70 per cent of the white tail deer and 15 per cent of the moose in the upper Columbia basin depend on these wetlands for their survival.

This gives us an idea of how magnificent and pristine this area is. Therefore I have a personal vested interest in Bill C-23.

At the conclusion of what I just read I mentioned the fact that there are also big game. We actually have about 25 per cent of the hunting in British Columbia for big game within my Kootenay East constituency.

I should mention it is not just an environmental issue although that is important enough, but it is also an economic issue. We have guide outfitters, taxidermists, sports shops, camera stores, saddle and outdoor equipment makers. In addition there are campgrounds, restaurants, motels, gas stations, automobile dealers, tire shops, grocery stores. All benefit from these wildlife resources, particularly during the fall hunting season when business would otherwise be slow.

We happen to be on one of the three western flyways. Depending on what happens with respect to the amount of water on the prairies, we may have up to tens of thousands of birds migrating overhead in the fall and again in the spring. It is indeed an absolutely magnificent area.

The major reason I stand in support of Bill C-23 is because it is the foundation and cornerstone of being able to co-ordinate the regulators and the regulation.

Members should know that the British Columbia conservation data centre which is a section of the wildlife branch of the Ministry of Environment, Lands and Parks in British Columbia has an exhaustive list of birds that are actually protected within our area. There are the western grebe, the bald eagle, peregrine falcon, sharp tailed grouse and long billed curlew. I could go and on with the number of birds that we are very, very proud of in our area.

I can report there is a tremendous level of co-operation between the regulators and the industrial users in my constituency. All of the forest companies are working in co-operation with the B.C. fish and wildlife branch. They are involved in doing cut blocks in co-ordination with that branch. In some cases they are taking as little as 30 per cent of the standing timber to come up with a particular kind of configuration for certain birds or animals. In other instances they are doing other things.

Often when thinking of the word environmentalist, speaking for myself I think of placards, protests, arrests, or civil disobedience. If we really want to see environmentalists anywhere in Canada, we should turn up at the rod and gun organizations in our constituencies. These are people who are going out of their way, putting their own blood, sweat, tears and money into preserving and improving the environment. In preparing for this presentation I took time to speak to four such groups.

One was the Kimberley Wildlife and Wilderness Club. It pointed out that with respect to migratory birds the biggest single item that has worked against them has been the inclusion of hydro power. I must admit I had always been a great fan of hydro power up until the time I started to look at this. The impact hydro power has had on migratory birds has been singularly devastating.

I mentioned blood, sweat and tears. The Golden and District Rod and Gun Club notes it has a gander lander. A gander lander is simply a manmade place where the geese can land, so it is called a gander lander. Over the past 15 years the Golden Rod and Gun Club has been involved in constructing between 100 and 105 gander landers. Five or six times during the winter months members go out and spend the whole day upkeeping and maintaining those.

In addition I spoke to members of the Elkford Rod and Gun Club. One of their concerns was with respect to snags. These are tall dead trees which are required for nesting for certain kinds of birds. I am happy to report that although a lot of them have been destroyed in logging operations for the protection of the people who are actually doing the logging, the B.C. forest service has just implemented a snag program. It is going out to the bush and identifying these snags and is taking steps to leave them standing so that they can be nesting places for birds. This is done in such a way that it is a safe process under workers compensation.

Members of the Sparwood and District Fish and Wildlife Association had two issues of concern. One issue of concern which I am sure all Canadians share is that whatever we are doing with Bill C-23 or any other bill, because this has the potential of overlapping on native issues, we take some time and see how those things relate.

The final thing they pointed out, which may come as a surprise to some people, is that they are actually having a population explosion of grizzly bears. There is an area down in the far southeast corner of my constituency, in the bottom corner of British Columbia, that is a remote area with a certain amount of logging and basically there are very few humans in that particular concentration. As a result the grizzlies have actually reached a point at which they may become a problem.

These rod and gun club members are law-abiding citizens. They are committed to the wildlife, they are committed to the environment. Something that I do not understand, because I am not a hunter, is that they are also committed to hunting. Last time I looked hunters used guns.

These people as law-abiding citizens believe in safe storage. These people as law-abiding citizens follow all of the rules for

responsible use. These people expect me and other people in this House to stand up against the imposition of certain city values that seem to be pushing them into a corner.

Unfortunately the imposition of city values may come from the fact that many birds arrive in the city dead, packaged and in freezers and there is no recognition of what went into that dead bird arriving in the freezer, much less the enjoyment that these people have in a responsible way of enjoying hunting during the fall season.

We support Bill C-23 because it supports the migratory bird protection and finally we support it because it reflects the values of responsible, active, participating environmentalists, law-abiding Canadians.

[Charles Caccia, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Mr. Speaker, at the outset let me congratulate the parliamentary secretary, the member for Lachine-Lac-Saint-Louis, for his opening remarks and for having set the tone for this debate and also for having ensured that there will be a thorough examination at the committee level so as to provide for consultation with interested Canadians.

Also I would like to congratulate the member for Terrebonne and the member for Kootenay East for having put forward such interesting observations that will certainly add to the quality of the examination and also because they give life to what otherwise would seem a rather stultified and bureaucratic piece of legislation. It is not stultified. It is not a dull and uninteresting piece of legislation.

On the contrary, I would argue that this is a very important piece of legislation being introduced by this new government today in the House mainly for three reasons. One, it is important because the movement of migratory birds has enormous significance for our farmers, for the role that birds play in the ecological balance and in maintaining a control of insects in the open agricultural environment. That role of course is well known but it is never underlined and highlighted enough.

Second, to the urban dwellers the arrival and departure of migratory birds and their staying in Canada during the good season is a source of enormous pleasure. That pleasure is not limited to bird watchers. It is a well known shared interest that Canadians have for the presence of this magnificent species.

Third, the fact that our literature and our heritage are based on the presence of migratory birds is witnessed alone by the fact that we have found it over the decades desirable to produce banknotes and coins reproducing some of the better known migratory birds in Canada.

For all these reasons it is quite safe to assume that deep down in the subconscious of the Canadian psyche there is a tremendous attachment to wildlife and therefore the migration of birds means more than just what that poor term conveys. It is an attitude toward nature. It is an attitude toward wildlife and essential pleasure is derived from it which cannot be easily described with plain words as I am attempting to do today.

For these three reasons I would say we are debating here in this House a piece of legislation that is significant for us and can have very significant repercussions for future generations of Canadians as other speakers have already highlighted, in particular the members for Terrebonne and Kootenay East.

This bill will allow for the creation of sanctuaries. It will ensure the management of areas important for the protection of migratory birds. It is important to note that at the present time we have in Canada some 101 bird sanctuaries protecting roughly 11 million hectares which are covered for that purpose.

If we look at the new act it is intended to broaden the definition of migratory birds. This is important because it will include sperm, embryos and tissue cultures. This is intended as a protective measure against development in biotechnology which may take place in future years. It is a very good clause that is proactive and of particular value.

Under this bill regulatory authorities will be established. One can only say that on the whole this bill is most laudable and very well prepared.

The contentious parts, however, that could be discussed and raised today relate, as is usually the case with these kind of bills, to fines and enforcement. Very briefly, I would like to draw attention to the fines which under the present legislation, before this bill comes into force, are a mere $10 to a maximum of $300. They are only levied upon summary conviction. Evidently there is here a vacuum that must be filled and we must say that this legislation is long overdue.

In the proposed bill the maximum fine will be $5,000 for summary conviction offences and up to $25,000 for indictable offences.

The question is are these fines really sufficient? I am sure there are a variety of views on this in reply to this question. In other words, is $5,000 adequate to deter someone from harming, killing or possessing and illegally trading protected species?

From the comments made by the member for Terrebonne I would be inclined to conclude that this fine is not enough, that the legislators should give the judge sufficiently broad range of fines and let the judge decide how strong the fine should be. However, the penalty should be as strong as it can conceivably be because it will also serve a purpose not just this year and next year but probably 10 or 20 years from now when this legislation is likely to be amended, but we do not know for sure. Therefore

the question of fines is one that raises a number of interesting questions.

The same can be said about enforcement. Enforcement officers will be appointed under this legislation. Their powers will be more consistent with other federal and provincial conservation legislation. Subsection 13 addresses this particular aspect of enforcement.

The question is whether a person who commits or continues to commit an offence for more than one day should be penalized or whether a limitation of one day is one that ought not to be deleted so that there is no reduction in the offence that is contemplated by the judge.

I would be inclined to think the enforcement section needs a good examination by the committee to make it stronger. It is true that the amendments will become strong deterrents to those who would traffic in wildlife. There is no doubt that they read very well. We have to make sure that there is enough strength in the Canadian Wildlife Service and in the provincial affiliated departments to carry out what is in the legislation.

Therefore I must bring to members' attention a statement made recently by the Animal Alliance of Canada in which a recommendation is made to stop the continued erosion of the numbers of wildlife enforcement officers, that the current vacancies of five enforcement people be filled and the remainder of 29 person-years be completed to bring the enforcement officers to a level that was promised in 1991, which is just above 30.

One must wonder whether in a country as large as Canada with such a large federal jurisdiction it is realistic to expect an enforcement of this important legislation with only 30 enforcement officers or thereabouts. Evidently the answer is no and evidently we will have to address this very important question.

Resources must be allocated to enforcement. These 30 or so positions must be increased, otherwise Canada is running the risk of not being able to meet its obligations under this legislation, under the Cites legislation as well as the Wild Animal and Plant Protection and Regulation of International and Interprovincial Trade Act. That is quite a lengthy title for that matter.

There are a number of questions that ought to be put on record on second reading. I would simply reduce them to the following.

Is there sufficient power provided by this bill so that the present minister and future ministers can undertake all the necessary action to ensure the protection of migratory birds?

Is the scope of this convention broad enough now that Canada has entered into NAFTA? Should initiatives not be launched at the political level as well as at the technical level to broaden the scope of the Migratory Convention Act so as to include Mexico and both Central and South America since as well we all know the movement of birds does not respect boundaries?

This convention is binding only on North America. If the scope of the convention is not broadened, a number of species could be in danger in the years ahead.

Many of our Canadian species do straddle two continents. We have to understand that all wildlife is really world wildlife, not just limited to Canada. Our ability to enjoy the presence of migratory birds in Canada depends also on the ability of protecting the species in those regions of the world where they spend their winter.

Therefore, the Canadian songbirds as we know and appreciate them depend on the rainforests of Central and South America. This is a political message that we have to carry to the international fora to ensure that this convention is broadened to its largest possible scope. Otherwise Canada will have a very limited chance to improve the survival of the species in the decades ahead.

We are debating today not just what would be the reality of the nineties but most likely the reality of the first half of the next century since this kind of bill does not reach the floor of the House of Commons that frequently.

In conclusion I would say that the changes proposed to the act are essential. They are very desirable. They are timely. We must work together to ensure there is a co-ordinated effort to achieve the protection of migratory birds.

We must ensure that the fines are a very strong deterrent. We must do our best to find ways to ensure the enforcement of the proposed act is carried out in every area of the federal jurisdiction at least. I suppose there could be excellent co-operation between provincial and federal services. We must ensure that the powers to create new sanctuaries are implemented and that the existing sanctuaries continue to be protected.

Finally, as I just mentioned and before I sit down, I would really make a plea to the Minister of the Environment to consider taking an initiative personally to ensure the scope of the convention is enlarged to include all the Americas and to provide the necessary protection in decades ahead.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Pursuant to Standing Order 38, I wish to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: The hon. member for Mercier, social programs; the hon. member for Chicoutimi, electronic highway.

[Karen Kraft Sloan, Liberal, York—Simcoe, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak in support of the bill to amend the Migratory Birds Conventions Act. I commend my colleagues on both sides of the House for their sensitivity and support of the bill. In particular I support my colleague from Davenport who has examined the bill carefully and has put forward some very sincere concerns.

Along with the Canada Wildlife Act, this act urgently needs updating to come into line with current environmental legislation in both Canada and the United States. Many provisions of the act as it now stands are ineffective or are simply not in harmony with related federal, provincial or territorial legislation.

Today I would like to focus on how the bill will affect one particular group that is following the updating process very closely, and that is Canada's First Nations. In fact the bill now before the House is only one of three initiatives in this area having particular importance for First Nations. The other two are the effort to amend the Canada-U.S. migratory birds convention of 1916 and the implementation of an interim policy on enforcement, especially the provisions on water fowl harvesting by aboriginal people.

The 1916 convention is a binational agreement governing the conservation of migratory birds in Canada and the United States. In our country the Migratory Birds Convention Act is the enabling legislation for the implementation of that agreement.

Regulations under the act control the hunting of migratory game birds during certain periods of the year. They also establish closed seasons to protect breeding, nesting, brooding and moulting birds at other times of the year.

These and other provisions complement measures taken by the United States, the provinces and territories, wildlife groups, the private sector and individuals to conserve this valuable wildlife heritage.

In many cases the different authorities and sectors have worked in close co-operation toward that common goal. One outstanding example of such a partnership is the North American water fowl management plan.

In some areas of Canada, especially the north, migratory birds have traditionally been an important food source for aboriginal peoples. First Nations continue to rely heavily on this source at different times of the year. In certain cases activities that are protected by aboriginal rights are not covered by the provisions of the Migratory Birds Conventions Act. For example, the hunting by natives of migratory birds during the closed season from March 10 to August 31 or the collection of eggs. Of course aboriginal people also hunt birds during open seasons. Hunting migratory birds does more than provide food to First Nations. Traditional hunting activities have a great significance in aboriginal culture. Preserving that culture means preserving Canada's wildlife resources.

In its present form the migratory birds convention fails to provide for closed season harvest and egg collection by aboriginal people. That omission can be rectified only by amending the convention itself, a step that requires negotiation between the United States and Canada. As I mentioned we are seeking to initiate the necessary negotiations. They should take place later this year.

First Nations take a significant proportion of the migratory birds hunted in Canada. The latest estimates suggest that aboriginal people harvest between 250,000 and 750,000 ducks and roughly 350,000 geese each year. For ducks that represents 13 per cent of the Canadian harvest and 6 per cent of the total North American harvest. For geese the figure represents 32 per cent of the Canadian harvest and 12 per cent of the total North American harvest. Geese constitute a major food source for some aboriginal communities, notably along the Ontario and Quebec coasts of James Bay.

Given the magnitude of the annual harvest and our desire to safeguard the subsistence harvesting needs of First Nations we must work in co-operation with aboriginal communities. We need new partnerships to achieve the shared goals of conservation and management of ducks and geese.

An amended convention will promote such partnerships, particularly in the form of co-management agreements, self-government agreements and the wildlife management provisions of comprehensive claims agreements.

Already co-management with aboriginal people is being implemented for the conservation of caribou, polar bear and other species. The approach is generating the needed data on harvest which can serve as a basis for agreement on harvest objectives. We wish to build on this success in our future efforts to amend the convention.

Earlier at workshops organized through Canada representatives from government, aboriginal communities, wildlife groups and others discussed options for closed season harvesting. These consultations provided valuable guidance for the coming negotiations with the United States on amending the migratory birds convention to allow for hunting and egg collection by natives.

Of course the amendments to the convention and to Canada's legislation and regulations must respect aboriginal and treaty rights to hunt migratory birds. To ensure that they do, thorough consultation is a must. That is how we will achieve the best possible provisions for addressing aboriginal concerns.

Consultations are now under way on such changes to the convention with the full participation of aboriginal organizations, the provinces and territories, and environmental and conservation groups. It will not happen overnight, but discussions to this date have been encouraging. What is more, Canada and the United States are now working on convergent tracks as we prepare for formal negotiations.

Among the changes now under consideration by hon. members to the Migratory Birds Convention Act, one provision concerns the procedure for amending the convention itself. The bill before the House will allow the schedule to the act setting out the convention to be amended by order. The change will ensure that Canada can promptly fulfil its obligations to the United States, the convention and all those affected by an amended convention, in particular aboriginal peoples.

Until such time as the convention is amended an interim enforcement policy governs our application of the Migratory Birds Convention Act and the Canada Wildlife Act in the areas of closed season hunting and egg collection by aboriginal people. This policy gives top priority to conservation. It will remain in effect until after passage of the bills modernizing the two acts and until the convention itself is amended.

The interim enforcement policy also stresses consultation and co-operation, two very important elements in any effort to build partnership for conservation with the First Nations.

There are pressing reasons for proceeding with the present amendments to the Migratory Birds Convention Act. It requires time to lay the groundwork for amending the migratory birds convention so that it takes into account the needs of aboriginal peoples.

While we continue to do that, however, we must safeguard the resources themselves. We must ensure that they are used sustainably. To do this Canada must act at once to update its wildlife and migratory bird legislation, strengthening enforcement and modernizing administration.

Any delay could jeopardize Canada's ability to ensure sustainable population levels for migratory birds and other wildlife. Let us consider the need to deal with the illegal commercial sales of murres and other migratory birds. That is only one reason we cannot afford to postpone these amendments.

For the benefit of Canadian wildlife Canada must proceed with the updating of the Migratory Birds Convention Act and its companion, the Canada Wildlife Act. At the same time we must continue extensive consultations with aboriginal people to meet their needs and concerns. The proposed amendments to both acts will in no way prejudice the outcome of these broader initiatives.

Canada's wildlife needs protection and it needs it now. That is why the government has introduced the bill now before the House to amend the Migratory Birds Convention Act, and that is why the bill deserves swift passage.

[Bernie Collins, Liberal, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Mr. Speaker, to help hon. members in considering the bill now before the House allow me to offer some background on migratory birds and Canada's efforts to protect and conserve them.

The Migratory Birds Convention Act provides protection for over 400 species of migratory birds in Canada. Among them are water fowl, sea birds, shore birds and song birds. In all it is a remarkably wide variety.

Environment Canada's Canadian Wildlife Service works to ensure that all species of migratory birds will continue to survive and benefit future generations of Canadians. Safeguarding migratory birds requires many different measures because the birds themselves have such varied habitats and ways of life.

In every case, however, there are the same basic components to the strategy pursued by the wildlife service. It monitors bird populations. It informs Canadians about the status of birds and their habitats. It co-ordinates multi-party efforts to preserve habitats. It establishes and enforces regulations to curtail the abuse of birds.

In some cases research is needed to understand how human activity affects the chances for birds to survive. Sometimes special plans have to be made for the recovery of endangered bird species. The wildlife service deals with these needs as required.

In every case a broad ecosystem approach is essential involving many stakeholders. That approach is central to the work performed by the Canadian Wildlife Service.

The issues demanding attention are highly diverse. For example, tree harvesting may affect migratory song birds. Pesticide runoff from farms may harm water fowl. Commercial fishing nets may trap and drown sea birds. Spills of oil and other harmful substances may jeopardize entire sea bird colonies.

One crucial step that must be taken is to identify critical habitat for migratory birds not only in Canada but throughout their flyways. In this instance many of Canada's migratory birds winter in Latin America and the habitats must be protected. With this in mind the Canadian Wildlife Service has established a Latin American program to further Canada's interest in migratory birds wintering south of the U.S.-Mexico border. The program seeks to identify the needs of migratory birds so that they can be included in conservation planning.

To this end it relies heavily on co-operation with other countries and international organizations. That co-operation must be seen in the memorandum of understanding between the Canadian Wildlife Service and the American and Mexican

wildlife agencies to conserve migratory birds and their habitats in Mexico.

The service has also helped established international initiatives. One of these is these is the international waterfowl census of the International Waterfowl and Wetlands Research Bureau. Another such initiative is the Western Hemisphere Shorebird Reserve Network. The network's objective is to identify and protect critical areas for the migration of shorebirds. Under this initiative the Wildlife Service has worked with countries throughout South America to develop an atlas of coastal shore bird habitats.

Here in Canada two hemispheric shorebird reserves have so far been identified, both of them in the upper Bay of Fundy. These have been twinned with three wetland sites in Suriname designated as hemispheric shorebird reserves in 1989. Work is proceeding to identify other important sites in Canada and to secure their designation and protection under the network.

Game bird species present a special challenge. They are an important recreational resource, translating into significant economic activity. At the same time we must see that this resource does not depreciate. In other words, we must ensure that it is used in a sustainable manner.

Canada manages migratory game bird species through an annual regulatory process for monitoring and controlling hunting. Associated with this process are population surveys. A hallmark of the process is consultation, in particular with the provinces and territories and with the American government agencies.

The Canadian Wildlife Services follows a two pronged approach in managing game bird species. One component of that approach is regulation and compliance; the other is habitat enhancement. Both efforts draw heavily on national and international input. Within Canada there is a notable contribution from the provinces and territories and increasingly from co-operative wildlife management boards involving aboriginal groups.

Internationally Canada works with the flyway councils set up to manage the birds according to their natural migratory pathways. We also work with the North American Waterfowl Management Plan Committee.

To support the consultations of developing game bird regulations, status reports are prepared. These publicly available documents give information on game bird populations and explain proposed changes to the regulations. The status reports are distributed to many Canadian and American organizations with an interest in migratory game bird conservation and with reports these organizations are in a position to influence the development of regulations.

The Wildlife Service also publishes an annual newsletter entitled "Bird Trends". This deals with the population status of Canadian birds. A top priority of the Wildlife Service is promoting public awareness about migratory bird issues. This is the first step toward fostering the volunteer networks on which the service relies for data collection.

Together with the Canadian Nature Federation the service sponsors Birdquest, a public information and education project on migratory birds. Birdquest encourages a basic understanding of the ecology of a bird, populations, and it does this by teaching participants about bird identification, bird study and bird conservation.

Those who successfully pass through Birdquest qualify to join one of the service's volunteer based programs. These play a key part in supporting migratory bird conservation initiatives and they help the service identify problems and implement solutions.

More important, the Birdquest program encourages Canadians to become actively involved in initiatives that contribute to migratory bird conservation. One of the most notable initiatives to protect migratory birds is the North American waterfowl management plan. This unique undertaking offers a forum for international agreement on a broad range of waterfowl management issues. It also provides the focus for action to enhance waterfowl habitat.

Under this co-operative agreement a series of joint ventures are targeting species inhabited areas of special concern.

In Canada the aims are to secure important waterfowl habitats throughout the country, to address the serious decline in western waterfowl populations, to initiate the collection of long-term survey data for eastern duck populations and to delineate and monitor the distinct breeding populations of Arctic nesting geese.

The north American waterfowl management plan brings together Canada, the United States and Mexico. It is a formal representation from Canadian provinces and territories as well as American states. Among its key contributors are the federal government, departments in Canada and the United States alike. It also involves many non-government organizations.

We can find broad co-operation in most of the activities of the Canadian Wildlife Service. With the United States the service works to conserve migrant songbirds through a program called Partners in Flight. With the aboriginal people, the service joins in co-operative wildlife management boards. With Canada's leading environmental non-governmental organizations, the service has a long history of joint projects.

Above all, with the provinces and territories, the service works to ensure the enforcement of the Migratory Bird Convention Act and to preserve ecosystems as habitats for wildlife and to tackle the problems of endangered species.

These are efforts that directly benefit all Canadians. Through the amendments to the Migratory Bird Convention Act it will be possible to reinforce these efforts and for that reason I support the passage of this bill. I urge all hon. members to do the same.

[Harold Culbert, Liberal, Carleton—Charlotte, NB]

Mr. Speaker, as a strong advocate of wildlife conservation I am pleased to speak in support of this bill to amend the Canada Wildlife Act.

Wildlife has a special place in our country. It is part of a heritage we all value. In the north many Canadians still earn their living by wildlife harvesting. Throughout the country wildlife related activity is a cherished form of recreation for an overwhelming majority of people.

Our challenge is to see that this heritage is passed on to future generations of Canadians. At the moment I am regrettably unsure that we will succeed.

Wildlife populations in Canada today are under considerable stress. More and more species are being designated as endangered and some populations are experiencing declines. But the outlook is not entirely bleak because while the dangers are greater than ever before, so is the support for wildlife conservation and so is our understanding of what it takes to protect and conserve our living natural resources.

Back in the 1970s when the Canada Wildlife Act was passed we thought mostly in terms of protecting individual species that were at risk and our efforts were limited by a failure to recognize the wider social and economic benefits of wildlife.

That recognition is now becoming more common. We know that wildlife activities make a significant contribution to Canada's economy. In hard dollar and cent terms we need to maintain our wildlife to maintain our prosperity, our communities and our traditional lifestyles. That is why close to 90 per cent of Canadians want better protection for our wildlife.

We also have come to recognize that working with individual species is not necessarily the best way to conserve wildlife. Certainly this is justified in the case where a particular species faces special threats. We have realized that each species is part of a web of life on which it depends and which it helps sustain. Tear apart that web and many species may no longer be able to survive. Patiently mend the web and you may help save not one but dozens of species.

In other words, we have understood that the most effective way of ensuring the health of wildlife is by ensuring the health of the ecosystems in which they live. No creature can long exist outside its accustomed habitat. Our task, first and foremost, is to protect key ecosystems, to conserve essential habitat. This is how we can ensure that future generations of Canadians will enjoy the benefits of a rich wildlife heritage.

In 1973 our predecessors in this Chamber were far-sighted enough to know the value of habitat protection to wildlife conservation and they incorporated that approach into the Canada Wildlife Act. The act allows the Minister of the Environment to acquire lands for the purpose of research, conservation and interpretation. Under the act, 45 national wildlife areas have been established in the intervening years, covering 287,000 hectares of territory.

The areas are managed by the federal government in co-operation with provincial and territorial authorities as well as non-government organizations. They complement an extensive system of national and provincial parks and other protected areas which encompass much prime wildlife habitat.

Internationally as well we have seen a growing appreciation of the need for an ecosystem approach to wildlife conservation. That is what underlines the North American waterfowl management plan, the Ramsar convention on the conservation of wetlands of international importance and, most important, the historic global convention on biological diversity adopted at the Earth Summit in 1992.

Among other things, the 1992 global convention calls for each signatory nation to establish a system of protected areas as a way of conserving biodiversity. To meet our commitments under the convention Canada must now redouble its efforts on this front.

We made a promising start in November of 1992 at the first joint meeting of Canada's federal, provincial and territorial ministers responsible for wildlife, parks and environment. The tri-council meeting called for development of Canadian biodiversity strategy. It also gave fresh impetus to the effort to complete Canada's network of protected areas, including areas representative of Canada's marine natural areas.

That effort has been defined in different ways. At times the call was to set aside 12 per cent of our country's territory as protected areas. But more important than achieving a particular figure is protecting representative samples of the Canadian ecosystems. Inevitably that means protecting key habitat on which our wildlife depends.

The bill now before the House will improve our ability to do that. It broadens the definition of land in the existing Canada Wildlife Act to include both land and marine areas alike, out to the 200 nautical mile limit. This wider definition will put the administration of the act in line with the ecosystem approach. Under the amended act it will be possible to establish new

national wildlife areas protecting habitats where wildlife reproduce, as well as associated offshore areas in which they feed.

The more extensive our network of national wildlife areas the better will be our protection for wildlife. Already this network covers a diverse array of landscapes and ecosystems throughout Canada and they support such varied activities as hiking, photography, bird watching, grazing or haying, and hunting, all in a manner compatible with the wildlife conservation objectives of a given area.

Allow me to describe a few of the national wildlife areas in existence or shortly to be established. In New Brunswick this year we will see the designation of Portobello as the province's fifth national wildlife area. This designation will protect over 2,000 acres of wetlands where waterfowl breed and stop on their annual migration as well as the Old Growth Forest where moose, whitetailed deer and black bear still roam.

In Quebec, Cap-Tourmente is an area that combines archaeological and wildlife significance. This site of the north side of the St. Lawrence River was established primarily to protect the habitat of the world's only greater snow goose population but it also contains remains of prehistoric as well as more recent times. Here Samuel de Champlain built a dwelling and a stable in the early years of European colonization.

In Ontario the Long Point national wildlife area forms a core of an international biosphere reserve. This fragile sand based ecosystem on the shore of Lake Erie contains unique habitats, including a significant portion of the remaining Carolinian forest and critical wetlands.

In Saskatchewan Last Mountain Lake is North America's oldest waterfowl refuge. Parliament first set aside land here in 1887 and this year it will be formally designated as a national wildlife area.

Yukon will get its first national wildlife area in 1994 with the designation of Nisutlin River Delta under the Teslin Tlingit land claims agreement. The area will protect approximately 5,200 hectares of inland river delta used by waterfowl as breeding grounds and a stopping point for their migrations.

In particular, it will shelter the tundra swan, a species listed as vulnerable with only 15,000 individuals in existence throughout the world.

Nisutlin is especially significant for the part being played by the first nations in its creation. In the Northwest Territories Polar Bear Pass has been the national wildlife area since 1986. It has also been recognized as a wetlands of international importance under the Ramsar convention and a significant biological site under the international biosphere program. This Arctic oasis supports some of the largest concentration of birds and mammals in the far north.

In the eastern Arctic huge numbers of sea birds nest at Coburg Island or at Nirjutiqavvik and it provides feeding habitat for the beluga, the narwhal, the walrus, the polar bear and three species of seals. A national wildlife area will be created there in 1994 under the terms of the Nunavut final agreement. The area will protect 3,450 hectares of land area and 14,350 hectares of water area for a total of 17,800 hectares.

The Inuit of the community of Grise Fiord will have a direct say in the management of the land use decisions affecting this area.

Far to the south of the island at the mouth of British Columbia's Fraser River, Alasken national wildlife area has been in existence since 1976. This is an important staging area for migratory birds, including the lesser snow geese from Wrangel Island in the Russian Arctic.

This is only a small selection from the list of Canada's national wildlife areas but it shows the variety and richness of these sites. It also shows the flexibility of a concept of wildlife area under Canada's Wildlife Act.

In Ontario's Long Point, for example, virtually all human activity must be closely monitored to avoid ecological damage. In constant, buildings standing at Alasken from before the site was designated now are used as offices of the Canadian Wildlife Service's Pacific and Yukon regions.

Other wildlife areas are open for many types of recreational activities, including closely regulated hunting, fishing and trapping.

In other areas local native people continue to exercise their traditional wildlife harvesting rights. That flexibility is one of the keys to the success of the national wildlife areas.

In many cases the sites that we seek to designate are of great importance to particular communities and groups. Our challenge is to gain their support and co-operation, to find ways of working together for common goals, including the goal of wildlife conservation.

This is truly sustainable development at work. Perhaps the greatest value of our national wildlife areas is that they give us a model for sustainable development, one that we should apply more widely. This House has an opportunity of doing exactly that by amending the Canada Wildlife Act. I am confident that hon. members will appreciate the importance of this bill and will give it swift passage.

[Ian McClelland, Reform, Edmonton Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I listened with considerable interest to the presentation of the members opposite.

I am wondering if the member opposite is aware that the penalties under the migratory birds act are in many respects much more severe than any penalties envisioned under the Young Offenders Act. For those watching this debate on television who may still be awake, I wonder if the member would comment on that.

[Harold Culbert, Liberal, Carleton—Charlotte, NB]

Mr. Speaker, first of all I will comment on the portion of the migratory birds act that you spoke of. Quite obviously those penalties you may consider overly severe. I consider them reasonable and severe in order to protect our migratory game birds.

As you know from the-

[The Deputy Speaker]

I appreciate that the hon. member is new, but would he please address his remarks to the floor. We do not refer to other members as "you". We say "the member", rather than "you".

[Harold Culbert, Liberal, Carleton—Charlotte, NB]

I apologize, Mr. Speaker. Certain the comments that have come forth in the question are appreciated. We are well aware in this House in recent weeks of the concerns that have been expressed on the Young Offenders Act.

Members on both sides of the House have heard the replies with regard to those questions from the Minister of Justice. I am not going to try to second guess him. I will wait for the hon. minister to bring forth his proposals on the Young Offenders Act and how he intends to make those amendments.

As far as the migratory birds act, I am in support of it. We may have to strengthen those penalties in future years in the protection of our wildlife.

[John Finlay, Liberal, Oxford, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to rise in support of Bill C-23, an amendment to the Migratory Birds Convention Act.

I note that this act was written in 1917. I do not think millions of passenger pigeons were flying between the United States and Canada across Lake Ontario in 1917 but there had been millions of them before the turn of the century.

After 75 years it is high time that we revised this act and amended it where necessary. Rachel Carson in her book Silent Spring alerted all of us to the dangers of pesticides and herbicides among bird populations. We have to keep that in mind. The situation has certainly not improved since that time and more needs to be done.

I know we are working hard on whistling swans. I would still like to see some bluebirds in the spring. There is even a dearth of warblers. Canada has a particular responsibility in this regard. Hundreds of species fly north to nest in our northern wilderness each year and fly south again in the fall to take colour and song to our southern neighbours so that we particularly must be cognizant of our role in maintaining biodiversity with respect to birds.

I would like to bring forward the results of an important survey made by the Canadian Wildlife Service in 1991. It surveyed 103,398 Canadians and it provides information on the socioeconomic benefits of biological resources in Canada. This was the third such survey since 1981 done by the Canadian Wildlife Service and some of the important findings are as follows.

In 1991, 18.9 million Canadians, 90.2 per cent of the population, took part in one or more wildlife related activities, devoting a total of 1.3 billion hours and $5.6 billion to these activities.

The majority of Canadians, 86.2 per cent, stated that it is important to maintain abundant wildlife and 83.3 per cent stated that it is important to protect endangered or declining wildlife populations.

On the economic side an estimated 1.8 million Americans visited Canada for fish and wildlife in 1991 and spent $842 million on these trips which provides us with a significant balance of payments in this area since that is five times the amount Canadians spend in the U.S. on such trips.

A second report is being prepared which will examine in more detail the impacts resulting from wildlife related activities on the Canadian economy in the form of income and jobs.

I quote from the Minister of the Environment: "The conclusions I draw from this survey are that Canadians remain strongly committed to the protection and conservation of abundant and diverse wildlife and that spending on wildlife related activities makes an important contribution to the Canadian economy. Those are among the reasons why the federal government is dedicated to working with the provinces, territories, environmental groups and the private sector on initiatives such as wetlands conservation and the protection of Canada's biological diversity".

Birds such as the golden plover and the Arctic tern travel thousands of kilometres twice each year from Canada's northern reaches to South America. Birds do not know anything about municipal, provincial or national boundaries. It therefore behooves us to do the best job we can in amending the Migratory Birds Convention Act to assure the world that biodiversity will continue and that our feathered friends will be here for many years to come.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I wish to take about five or ten minutes to speak on this bill.

I am in support of the bill and congratulate the minister and the parliamentary secretary for their work in this regard as well as all officials of the environment department.

I want to take this occasion to raise an issue of local concern, one that affects very much the citizens of Glengarry-Prescott-Russell with regard to wildlife, particularly migratory birds. Perhaps when I introduce this subject some members might think that it is trivial issue. I want to assure members that it is not. It is indeed a very important issue for the agricultural community of Glengarry-Prescott-Russell.

As you know, Canada geese spend the winter in the United States and come back in the spring to nest in Ungava, in northern Quebec.

Until some years ago the migration route of these birds was somewhere around Kingston, Ontario, and the birds would land, approximately 120,000 of them, on Wolfe Island and from there move north flying approximately in a north-northeast direction. For reasons that officials of the Wildlife Service of Environment Canada do not understand fully to this day, the birds have changed their migration route and are gradually flying farther and farther east. They now fly between Ottawa and Montreal. That is approximately the route.

They first stop in my riding and then in the Papineauville area. In fact, there is a Canada geese festival celebrating these beautiful birds on their way north.

They are a magnificent sight and like all my constituents I like to see them fly above. However, there is a community in my area which, for obvious reasons, finds that less enjoyable, and that is the farm community.

As I said, the birds stop in our area and their number can reach 75,000 to 80,000 at once. If the area was forested, they would do little damage. Even in a corn field they would not do much harm. But in a field of alfalfa or tender grass, very rich in protein because they grow on rich soil, they can play havoc. The losses suffered by farmers in my area are enormous.

I have here a report prepared by the Ministry of Agriculture which puts the losses at $240 per acre, and we are talking about hundreds and hundreds of acres destroyed every year. On several occasions, I asked the federal government to help these farmers. Unfortunately, I never obtained anything with the previous government.

I believe there are three solutions or three elements of solution to the problem we have in my riding. First, I think the agriculture departments of the Ontario provincial government and the federal government should implement a policy for compensating specific site owners, a program similar to the crop insurance they have in Quebec. In other words, if one specific producer loses part of his crop, he should be eligible. The Ontario plan does not allow for the analysis of such local losses. To be eligible, losses have to be regional and of course birds do not land on a complete region; they visit one site, destroy 300 or 400 acres at a time, but not the fields around that area. Therefore, that plan should be modified.

Second, there is a problem with the approach used to control birds when they decide to land on one specific field.

Until about three years ago farmers in Glengarry-Prescott-Russell were given permits by Environment Canada to shoot down one bird. The farmer would receive a permit to kill one bird. After killing the bird he would turn it upside down, pursuant to instructions given by Environment Canada, and spread out the wings. They are very huge birds. With the bird turned upside down it can be viewed from the sky by other birds and of course they would never go near that farm for the rest of the season. That was working reasonably effectively.

Three years ago Environment Canada took the position that the birds were gradually dwindling in numbers and we could no longer afford to do that.

That might be true, but I have a problem with that. If it is true the bird belongs to an endangered species, how come hunting those birds is permitted in the fall? If all that is true, why not prohibit fall hunting? In the past, I never succeeded in getting my point across to officials in charge of those issues.

It seems to me that if there must be control, it should be in the fall, when after all, it is a luxury to hunt them, not a necessity as it is in the spring when farmers should be allowed to shoot them. After all, perhaps only 25 farmers would be allowed to kill one bird each to avoid such serious losses.

Anyway, this was turned down. Instead, farmers were given, at great cost to taxpayers, guns and blank cartridges to scare them off. But, needless to say, these animals are extremely intelligent, over and above everything else, and once you shoot at them three or four times without hurting them, they are no longer afraid of your gun. So much so, Mr. Speaker, that farmers bought automatic propane guns that shoot once every half hour, or something like that.

Farmers in the area were explaining to me that for the first day the birds would leave when the shots were heard. On the second day they would leave about five minutes before the shots were heard. On the third day they would just tip their head up, listen to the shot and tip it back down again and continue eating. That is how effective that particular Environment Canada fiasco was for

my electors. All of this was a tremendous expense for the taxpayers.

Finally last year I thought we had the solution where Environment Canada offered to the electors of my area to establish a series of wildlife refuge areas.

Three areas had been designated as bird sanctuaries, one along the South Nation River, the other one near the Ottawa River, and the third one not far from Cob Lake, in my riding. Everything was planned, but unfortunately, the government withdrew its offer to supply funds. My constituents did not appreciate that at all. It happened under the former government, of course, not ours.

Still, material losses are nonetheless great, and that is what I want to bring to the attention of the House. As I said, to hon. members who deal with issues concerning the whole country, this may seem to be just a local and rather unimportant issue, but I assure you, Mr. Speaker, that when you lose-and I have the estimate here-when you lose $240 per acre and when you lose suddenly 200 crop acres, it is not very funny.

Several constituents of mine, several farmers in Glengarry-Prescott-Russell suffered losses because of that. There are two things I hope for. First, I hope that the federal government will convince the Ontario government to amend the crop insurance program so that these farmers can be compensated.

On the other hand, I hope that a solution will be found, either proposing sanctuary measures or restoring the program allowing each farmer to eliminate one bird every season, all the more so since, as I was saying, only about twenty farmers are involved.

I am not raising this point to tell you that I am not one of those who want to keep protecting that species, quite the contrary. However, I must stress that when people realize that no one wants to hear them, it sometimes happen that they take the law in their own hands. But there is no winner under such circumstances, because people will cause damage and will no longer respect these birds. What I want to do is make sure that that species will be protected. After all, they are a Canadian symbol and, what is more, they are very unique birds. I have been briefed about Canada geese.

For those of us who are English speaking, they are known as the Canada goose, a symbol of our nation until we put the loon on the dollar. Before that I guess the Canada goose would have probably been the most famous bird we had. It still is a beautiful creature.

I want to raise these concerns because they affect greatly the electors of Glengarry-Prescott-Russell. At this time of year I am deluged with phone calls from farmers who see their crops being lost because of the damage being done. It is the role of the government that makes these laws, laws that I support, to ensure that they are made in such a way so as to not sacrifice the agricultural community. Both can co-exist quite well if we put our minds to making sure that that co-existence does not mean that one community is sacrificed for the other.

It does not have to be that way. All we need to do is work co-operatively. I am confident that with people like the Minister of the Environment, the parliamentary secretary who is a very able person in the area, that we will succeed where we have failed before in preserving the crops of the farmers of Glengarry-Prescott-Russell.

And who knows, by establishing sanctuaries such as these, as we could, and as the department had suggested a year ago, perhaps we could increase the number of people who would go and see these beautiful creatures in their habitat. And the appreciation for these great birds would increase if we all worked together. That is, in any case, what I wish for, and I hope the department will examine that issue, which is very important for those I have the honour to represent in this House.

That being said I want to go on record supporting the initiative that is before us today and to again ask the government to think of the electors of Glengarry-Prescott-Russell and the problem they have in this area of wildlife management.