House of Commons Hansard #84 of the 35th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was wildlife.

Topics

Department Of Citizenship And Immigration ActGovernment Orders

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

Mary Clancy Liberal Halifax, NS

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for Wild rose for his intervention and his questions. I might add that we too are delighted that he is here both as an immigrant and as an MP and I hope that at a future time the hon. member as an immigrant and as a member of Parliament will stand in this House and talk about his own success story as a new Canadian and the success stories of many other new Canadians as well.

As the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration frequently says, unfortunately it is too often the planes that crash that get coverage and get notice even here in this House as opposed to the planes that land. I look forward to the hon. member's intervention in that area.

With regard to his comments about criminals and deportation, certainly the hon. member should know that the minister has said frequently, on more than one occasion both in the House and outside, that he has zero tolerance for abusers of the system, for people who commit crimes in this country or commit certain acts that were they within this country would be considered

crimes. We do not want to see or tolerate that kind of activity within our policy levels.

I can assure the hon. member that the minister has promised legislation addressing these concerns will be forthcoming very soon in the House.

Department Of Citizenship And Immigration ActGovernment Orders

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Tom Wappel Liberal Scarborough West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I would like to follow up on the point raised by my hon. friend from Wild Rose. I would like to ask the parliamentary secretary a question based on a statement he made which perhaps was not quite clear. Perhaps the parliamentary secretary will comment.

If I understood the hon. member for Wild Rose correctly, he was proposing that criminals upon conviction be deported. If this is the suggestion in my respectful submission it does not make much sense at all. We would then be saying that if somebody who happens to be a non-citizen commits a murder and is convicted his sole penalty would be deportation to his country of origin, which does not make the slightest bit of sense.

If the hon. member is suggesting that upon completion of serving any sentence imposed for the commission of a crime the Government of Canada should consider deporting a criminal, that is an entirely different matter.

Would the hon. parliamentary secretary agree that it does not make much sense to deport criminals who have been convicted immediately? In my view that would encourage more people to come to Canada to commit crimes, knowing that their only penalty would be deportation.

Department Of Citizenship And Immigration ActGovernment Orders

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Mary Clancy Liberal Halifax, NS

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for Scarborough West, my colleague both as a member of the House and as a member of the bar. Of course the member is absolutely right. The forthcoming legislation will respect all the principles of due process.

If the hon. member for Wild Rose is suggesting that we would be saving money-heaven forbid that I should anticipate the hon. member's theories-the hon. member for Scarborough is absolutely right that we would be opening ridiculous floodgates for people who would come here and think they could do pretty much as they please: walk into any place in Canada and rob a bank and the only sanction would be deportation to the country of origin because there is no real process for these people to be tried, convicted and punished elsewhere.

The point we are concerned about is ensuring at the end of the process that these people do not abuse the immigration and citizenship system in our country.

Department Of Citizenship And Immigration ActGovernment Orders

3:30 p.m.

Reform

Myron Thompson Reform Wild Rose, AB

Mr. Speaker, perhaps I should have clarified that a bit. I am talking specifically about those people who come here, commit crimes and are desperately wanted in their countries of origin.

I am thinking of Charles Ng particularly. Why did we house him and spend millions of dollars for six years? We did not want to send him back to California where he was wanted for 22 murders or something. Inmates from Drumheller, for example, have expressed openly that even though they were caught the penalties in this country were not very severe. They would rather be caught here then go back and face the penalties they would have to face in other parts of the world.

I think we should analyse the whole issue. If it is a bigger benefit financially than punishment wise or whatever, we should probably consider sending them back.

Department Of Citizenship And Immigration ActGovernment Orders

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Mary Clancy Liberal Halifax, NS

Mr. Speaker, I understand and sympathize with the sentiment of the hon. member. He and I have had this discussion before on other matters.

One cannot legislate for individual cases such as Charles Ng. One has to legislate in the broad spectrum for all people. We cannot create a law that says this is what we will do here because we would be omniscient. We cannot anticipate what every situation will be.

We have to pass laws within the context of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, within the context of our criminal law and its precedents, and within the context of English common law and its belief in justice and due process. We have to do the very best we can within that context. The passage of law and the philosophy behind the criminal law, the immigration law, et cetera, is not entirely driven by financial exigency.

Department Of Citizenship And Immigration ActGovernment Orders

3:35 p.m.

Reform

Diane Ablonczy Reform Calgary North, AB

Mr. Speaker, today we are debating Bill C-35 to formalize the department of immigration and citizenship. I do not oppose the creation of the department. However it is important for the House to consider the mandate of the department and the way that mandate is fulfilled. I would like to discuss one aspect in particular: the department's processing of refugees.

Canada has undertaken, with the support of its citizens, to offer safe haven to people the world over who are in danger of death or serious harm in their countries of origin. It is help we are proud to be able to offer.

I therefore want to talk not about whether we should continue to accept refugees-I believe we can and should do that-but about the process of how we determine to whom we should offer assistance in this regard. More specifically I want to talk about the acceptance of inland refugee applicants, those who are now in Canada, and how it affects refugees who cannot afford to come to Canada before applying.

There are literally millions of people from all over the world who are in dire need of help. Even as we sit here safe and comfortable, many of these people are experiencing starvation, injury and even death. Most cannot afford or find a way to travel

to safety in other countries and are instead forced to wait until help reaches them where they are.

According to a report by the executive committee of the United Commissioner for Refugees, UNHCR, in 1992 the world refugee population rose to a staggering 19 million. Some of the numbers mentioned in the same report were as follows: 420,000 Somali refugees in Kenya; 80,000 Bhutanese in Nepal; 250,000 refugees from Myanmar in Bangladesh; and 280,000 Togolese in Benin and Ghana. These are only a few of the many people around the world whose lives have been shattered and who are often living on the edge of survival. Nor is there any end in sight. The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, already strained to the limit, has said in stark terms that "the number of refugees continues relentlessly to grow".

In the face of this massive need for safe haven, Canada has offered to take in approximately 30,000 refugees this year. Of these, approximately half of the spaces are reserved for inland refugees already in Canada. Many of these refugee applicants are legitimate refugees who have overcome incredible odds to arrive on our shores and ask for help.

We should also realize that a large number of inland refugee applicants are not legitimate refugees and come to Canada simply to find a better life. This is understandable and we should continue to encourage the arrival of productive individuals through immigration.

Under the present policy there are well over 200,000 spaces available to people wishing to come to Canada as immigrants but a very limited number of spaces for refugees. In view of this it is important to take special precautions when deciding which inland refugees are legitimate claimants and which ones are simply seeking to skip immigration procedures, seeking to jump the queue by claiming refugee status.

The United Nations has issued a warning to countries that offer asylum to refugees. In the words of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees:

The line between the voluntary migrant and the refugee is a fine one. Yet it is important for states to be able to make the distinction in a fair and consistent manner so that people who genuinely need asylum are granted it, and so that the protection system for refugees is not overwhelmed with economically motivated migrants.

I share the concern of the UNHCR that if we continue to increase the numbers of inland refugee applicants accepted in Canada we will take away spaces from those people who cannot afford to come to Canada before applying for refugee status.

A confidential report recently leaked to the media from the office of the minister of immigration brings to light some troubling facts. First, the acceptance rate of inland refugees has jumped under the minister's newly appointed board members. It is not a small increase but rather in the words of the minister's own staff it is: "the first really significant quarterly increase since the board's inception".

The report shows that fully 67 per cent of all inland refugee applicants are currently being accepted by the new board. This has had the effect of allowing 4,855 refugee claimants to stay in Canada or almost one-third of the total annual target of 15,000 in the first quarter of 1994 alone. At this rate the full annual target of inland refugees will be met well before the year is up.

What happens then? Will the minister expand the total available refugee spaces in Canada even though the services we are able to provide to Canadians are already strained because of our economic situation? Or, will the inland refugee category alone expand and take away spaces from refugees who cannot afford to come to Canada to apply for refugee status?

If all inland applicants for refugee status currently applying were truly in fear of their lives it would be one thing, but the increase in acceptance rate leads to the conclusion that the immigration board is weakening the criteria in the case of inland refugees. The new refugee board vice-chairman has offered two alternative explanations for the increase but the facts tell a different story.

One explanation is that a new streamlining process is in place. Yet the leaked report states:

The proportion of claims completed in under four hours at traditional full hearings declined from 60 per cent during 1993- to 53 per cent in the first quarter of 1994.

The report goes on to state:

New CRDD member appointments may largely account for the general decrease in the percentage of claims completed at the regular hearing in less than four hours.

This can hardly be characterized as streamlining.

The second explanation is that a large number of Somalis and Sri Lankans have finally had their claims heard. It is understandable that the recent crises in these countries have produced a large number of refugees. However, again according to the report, the acceptance rate for inland applicants from nine out of ten source countries mentioned has similarly shot up; the most significant rates of acceptance being for refugee claimants from China, Pakistan and Israel. This across the board increase suggests that something other than recent outbreaks of violence in the two countries mentioned or a streamlined review process explains the increased rate of acceptance for inland refugees.

I believe we owe it to ourselves and to the millions of legitimate refugees the world over not to apply sloppy procedures or the lowering of standards to dictate who will fill the limited number of refugees Canada can afford to help.

We have already broadened the category of what constitutes a legitimate refugee to be the most open in the developed world. With increasing budgetary restraints in the country and with the tenfold cost of processing refugee claimants here instead of overseas, perhaps it is time we re-examined the criteria under which we admit inland refugee claimants to Canada. At the very least we have to stringently apply existing criteria.

The recent case of Pedro Hugo, an admitted terrorist, is a case that exemplifies the current laxity of our refugee laws. After being returned to Peru and living there for 18 months, Hugo was returned at taxpayers' expense to Canada because it was alleged that the board had "erred" in judgment. Only after Canadian taxpayers, including hard working immigrants, had paid for Hugo's plane flights, legal aid and housing did the board come to the obvious conclusion for the second time that Hugo was not a legitimate refugee.

In the face of 19 million refugees world-wide the vast majority of whom cannot afford to come to Canada to claim refugee status, we have a moral duty to be very careful about which inland refugee claimants we allow to stay in Canada. It is imperative we do not let misplaced generosity interfere with these decisions. Every person who comes here claiming refugee status because they want to find a better opportunity or because they simply do not like it in their own country is taking the place of someone who is in desperate circumstances or truly in danger for their lives.

The decisions to be made are not easy ones but they have to be faced. In the words of Sadako Ogata the UN High Commissioner for Refugees: "Resettlement should be driven by need rather than want". Let us make sure we find and admit the real refugees.

Department Of Citizenship And Immigration ActGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

John Bryden Liberal Hamilton—Wentworth, ON

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague from Calgary North for her very fine remarks. I think we are all very much in agreement in this House that the problem of refugees is a very delicate and sensitive one. Although I do not agree in the case of the inland refugee situation right now that there has been laxity on the part of the government, it is certainly true those who are here have an advantage over those who are not. We certainly should bear heed to what she says. We must be very careful to try to be as fair and just as we can.

My comment pertains to a little slip the hon. member made in her speech. When she began she referred to the department as the ministry of immigration and citizenship. I immediately took note of that because of course in this bill we are talking about combining citizenship and immigration in the ministry. If I may say so it is citizenship and immigration rather than the other way around.

The very important point I am about to make is that it struck me as very wrong because there is one thing I would have changed in the bill. I would have changed it to immigration and citizenship instead of the other way around simply because immigration is the body of this country. When immigrants come here they come to be fed and to find shelter, heat and warmth and to sustain their physical selves. I would say that citizenship is the soul of this country. It is what the people of this country give in terms of their minds and whole beings.

Department Of Citizenship And Immigration ActGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Reform

Diane Ablonczy Reform Calgary North, AB

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate my colleague's remarks. I assure him that referring to the department with the name reversed was not a Freudian slip. However, I do agree with his remarks. I believe that immigration comes before citizenship and if he would like to make an amendment to the bill to change the name of the department I would be very happy to second it.

Department Of Citizenship And Immigration ActGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Osvaldo Nunez Bloc Bourassa, QC

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member made a distinction between refugees who are outside Canada and those who come here and apply for refugee status. She expressed a number of reservations and apprehensions, but I would like to tell her that we have a system in this country, the Immigration and Refugee Board, whose commissioners are asked to determine who is a bona fide refugee under the Geneva convention and who is not.

I sometimes think such apprehensions are unfounded. I would also like to inform the hon. member that in all countries, in the United States as well as in Europe, refugees knock on the door to ask for political asylum. This is not unique to Canada. This is common throughout the world. That is why independent and autonomous bodies are asked to determine who is a refugee and who is not.

Department Of Citizenship And Immigration ActGovernment Orders

3:50 p.m.

Reform

Diane Ablonczy Reform Calgary North, AB

Mr. Speaker, I certainly acknowledge my colleague's expertise in this area. Having been an immigrant he probably has greater knowledge in some areas than I do.

The concern is that one-third of the spaces available in our inland refugee program were filled in the first quarter of the year. That means either one of two things: Very few inland refugees will be able to be admitted as the year progresses because the quota has been filled so early; or that the quota for inland refugees will displace some of the quota for refugees who are in other countries and under severe stress. It was more a word of caution that our system be very careful to make sure it balances those two competing interests.

Department Of Citizenship And Immigration ActGovernment Orders

3:50 p.m.

Reform

Keith Martin Reform Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Speaker, Bill C-35, to consolidate citizenship and immigration functions, I believe is a laudable one to attempt to streamline and reduce duplication. I can only applaud this manoeuvre and hope

that when the two ministries are brought together there can be a streamlining of administration, increased efficiency and significant savings to the taxpayer, particularly important in these days of deficit spending. I have no real problems with the bill, but I think this might be a superb opportunity to address many of the unanswered questions on immigration and some of the efforts the new department should undertake.

One of the greatest characteristics of our beautiful country and one I am very proud of is our cultural mosaic. Very few countries in this world of ours have been able to assimilate a heterogeneous group of people from all over the world. In fact, every country in the world is represented within our borders. We have managed to create a melting pot with a minimal amount of civil strife, prejudice and intolerance. As a result of this, we have produced a rich culture that has benefited all individuals who live within our borders.

The exposure to different cultures, ethnic groups and religions is something that enriches us all and breeds tolerance. It is perhaps this tolerance and understanding that we as Canadians seem to have that sets us apart from almost every other country in the world giving us our unique international characteristics. It is this unique level of tolerance and understanding that has given us such a high level of esteem in international circles. There is no doubt in my mind that immigration has proven to be a benefit to us.

Today in the 1990s much has been said about immigration. Often passionate and divergent views are extolled about immigrants from many quarters. The numbers of immigrants: Are they too high? Are they too low? Their characteristics: Are we allowing too many in with certain characteristics that would not benefit the country? The country of origin: Are some countries better suited to adapt to the Canadian way of life than others? Are immigrants a boon or are they a loadstone to this country?

Those questions are even more pertinent today. They have a certain imperativeness about them in their response because of our high unemployment levels, our uncertain economic future, the rapidly shifting trends in the economy and our relatively lower standard of living that plagues current generations more so than others in the past.

The arguments also become more passionate and more subjective as these pressures on Canadian society grow. Immigrants are often taken as a scapegoat for some of these problems in this country. In order to serve the Canadian public, the country and the immigrant population better, I believe it is imperative that these questions be addressed and that these problems be met head on instead of trying to avoid them.

It does not pay to ignore life's realities. Thus there has never been a better time to ask for the truth about immigration. What immigration levels should we have? What type of immigrants should we be selecting? The only way to get this is through cold, hard data. Let us not hide from this.

First it would serve to have a brief overview of immigration in Canada. As I have said before, immigrants no doubt have been a tremendous boon to this country. I am an immigrant and I am proud and very thankful at being allowed to come to this country. In fact, I like to think of this country as a founding country of many different races.

Between 1967 and 1978 immigration policy favoured highly qualified and skilled immigrants with high education. They came to this country and got jobs. Their earnings grew and in fact exceeded those of indigenous Canadians. They became a net contributor to the treasury and there was minimal job displacement.

After 1978 the immigration policy changed. The education of immigrants fell and their earnings fell. There was more job displacement, particularly by unskilled workers from third world countries.

There is also less integration now than before. Immigrant adaptation has also taken longer than before. This adaptation is dependent upon a number of characteristics: the immigrants' education, language, age and the nature of the receiving society, the level of skills required by the country, the labour market and the extent to which the country is receptive toward them.

In the last 10 to 15 years we have had a decreasing number in the independent class of immigrants, those who were selected to come to this country and went through a selection process and had a very high chance of getting a job. An increase in the number of family reunification class of individuals has happened in Canada in the last 10 years. Those are people who were allowed into the country purely on the basis of having a relative here.

The immigration policy from 1967 to 1980 was undoubtedly successful. That was due primarily to the selection process I mentioned and the commitment of our country to minority cultures, tolerance, equal rights and human rights for all.

However, recent trends in the labour market performance of immigrants have been disquieting. Much has been stated by various people on the level of criminality among immigrants and whether or not they are a loadstone or a benefit to Canada in terms of social services. I have not been able to see any data or information on this subject, but I think it is high time we started to look at the truth, not to create any scapegoats for this country's problems but rather to better serve the immigrant population and the citizens in Canada.

If immigrants are having a difficult time and are going to the social services in a disproportionate fashion, then we need to determine what we can do to alleviate this problem. Perhaps the solution is in having a better selection process for what Canada needs in terms of its economy and also providing the immigrant population with more targeted services.

It is also time that we looked at immigrant populations and determined what they are doing at perhaps six months, one year and two years after they come to Canada to determine whether or not they are an economic benefit. In times of deficit spending our country cannot tolerate a greater strain on social services. As I have said in the past, Canada cannot help other countries unless it itself has a vibrant and strong economy with low unemployment and a reasonable level of growth. It is only by providing this strong economy within our country that we can extend our hands economically and technically to other less advantaged countries.

Another question is as to how many immigrants run foul of the law. This has been mentioned today. It would be prudent for us to determine this if the statistics are there, but they are not. We need to know what we should about it. Other issues which are important are the individuals who commit indictable offences in this country, after having their guilt or innocence proven, should automatically be deported back to their country if they are proven to be guilty. It is completely unfair for the Canadian taxpayer to foot the bill in excess of $50,000 to $60,000 per year per person for an individual who is incarcerated in a penal institution. Currently 85 per cent of individuals who commit a crime and are thought to be eligible for deportation stay in this country. This must stop now.

Another aspect that is unfair is that we should not allow visitors to come to this country with the express interest of having babies on our soil so that their children will automatically have the rights and privileges of Canadian citizenship. In other words, Canadian citizenship should not be automatic if a child is merely born in this country to a person who is a visitor.

Immigrants and Canadian citizens will benefit from a well thought out immigration policy.

I would implore the hon. minister to do the following: Tie non-refugee groups of immigrants to the economic needs of the country and make these rules colour blind with no bias in terms of country of origin. We must also not forget our humanitarian obligations under the 1951 Convention on the Status of Refugees. Let us tighten up the definition of refugee class. It does not serve the legitimate refugees in this country or the independent class of refugees if they are queue jumped by individuals who come to this country with fabricated reasons.

Let us also look at New Zealand and Australia as examples of countries whose policies of family reunification classification we should adopt. They are well thought out and they are fair to all parties.

We also should do HIV testing for individuals who wish to immigrate to this country. People are tested for other groups of infectious diseases. There is no reason why HIV, a disease that tragically has a 100 per cent fatality rate, is not tested for.

Also, amalgamating citizenship and immigration I would lastly suggest that the ministry consult with a private group that specializes in giving advice on streamlining the ministry. It may serve the Canadian public and the minister as well to have this expertise as it costs about $50,000 per year to have an immigrant processed.

Department Of Citizenship And Immigration ActGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

Liberal

Tom Wappel Liberal Scarborough West, ON

Mr. Speaker, just a short question to clarify one portion of my hon. colleague's speech and in particular in connection with what I believe I heard him say, the automatic deportation of criminals who have been convicted of crimes who are not Canadian citizens. I want to be perfectly clear and I want to ask the member if he has actually thought this through.

I want to give him an example and ask for his comments specifically. Is the member saying that if a person who is not a citizen is convicted of a crime in this country he should be immediately deported or is he saying that he should be deported after serving his sentence?

Let us suppose someone comes up from Washington state and robs a bank using a handgun. If that person is apprehended and convicted of armed robbery in British Columbia, is the position of the hon. member that the only thing that should happen to that person is that person be returned to Washington state or is the hon. member in fact saying that after having served the appropriate sentence for armed robbery then the person should be returned?

Department Of Citizenship And Immigration ActGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

Reform

Keith Martin Reform Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Speaker, in response to the hon. member's question the person should go through our courts, guilt or innocence should be determined and if he or she is found to be guilty then they should be deported to the country of origin with the understanding that the person should be faced with serving a sentence appropriate to the crime in the country of origin.

My constituents have told me they think it is grossly unfair that the Canadian taxpayer has to foot the bill in the order of $50,000 or $60,000 per year to have this person sit in a penal institution for that period of time. It is a cost that I do not think Canadian taxpayers should have to shoulder.

Department Of Citizenship And Immigration ActGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

Liberal

John Harvard Liberal Winnipeg—St. James, MB

Mr. Speaker, I too am looking for some clarification. I do not hold any particular brief for immigrants who commit especially serious crimes. If I understood the hon. member correctly I think he indicated that he would like to see the collection of some data on the criminal

activity of immigrants here in this country. I really wonder about that, where that would take this and what some people might do with it.

My concern would be that if we were to compile data on the criminal activity of immigrants it would be easy for some people to strike an average for any group of immigrants, whether it is Iran, Haiti or Scotland or wherever. If they were to be committing crimes above average, any more of them would be discouraged from coming to Canada. Those committing crimes below average would be encouraged to come to Canada. I am not too sure.

Department Of Citizenship And Immigration ActGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

Reform

Keith Martin Reform Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Speaker, I do understand what the hon. member is saying. The last thing I want to do is institute any element of prejudice into this at all. There has been much said by various people in the media and groups in this country that certain immigrants are criminals and they should not be allowed into the country.

I am looking for answers that have not been provided by the minister of immigration. I think it is important for us to determine whether there are individuals coming into this country who are criminals or who commit criminal acts in this country. If we can do a better job of determining who those individuals are beforehand, in other words have some way of predicting this behaviour in the future such as, for example, if they have a criminal record in the country of origin, perhaps we can use this data to protect the citizens of this country.

That is what I am driving at, not to institute any prejudice on the country of origin. Rather, if there are characteristics of an individual who comes to this country who has had criminal behaviour in the past and is an incorrigible criminal, we should know this information before they come here in order to protect the citizens of this country and not allow them to enter into our borders.

Department Of Citizenship And Immigration ActGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Karen Kraft Sloan Liberal York—Simcoe, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to hear that the member on the other side is an immigrant and a new Canadian and that he will have some sensitivity to other new Canadians. I also understand that the member opposite is a physician. I was wondering if the member was educated in Canada.

I would also like to ask the member, just as a bit of clarification and edification on his earlier remark, whether we should do an economic analysis of the benefits that immigrants provide this country. If indeed the member on the other side was educated as a medical doctor, which is an incredible cost to the Canadian taxpayer, I was wondering if he has figured out his economic benefit to this country.

Department Of Citizenship And Immigration ActGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

Reform

Keith Martin Reform Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Speaker, I came to this country when I was eight years old from England. I will clarify what I said. I was saying in my speech that we need to find out whether or not individuals who come to this country are going on social services or are not.

The only reason I say this is to dispel a lot of the myths that are being thrown around. I am trying to get at the answers. I am not making any prediction as to what immigrant groups are or are not doing, but I think it is important for us to find out if immigrants are or are not going on our social services. If they are, then perhaps we are doing something wrong and perhaps we can find ways of helping them to ensure that they do not go on social services or perhaps integrate them into Canadian society in a better way.

Department Of Citizenship And Immigration ActGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Is the House ready for the question?

Department Of Citizenship And Immigration ActGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Question.

Department Of Citizenship And Immigration ActGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Department Of Citizenship And Immigration ActGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to a committee.)

The House proceeded to the consideration of Bill C-23, an act to implement a convention for the protection of migratory birds in Canada and the United States, as reported (with amendments) from the committee.

Migratory Birds Convention Act, 1994Government Orders

June 13th, 1994 / 4:10 p.m.

Ottawa South Ontario

Liberal

John Manley Liberalfor the Minister of the Environment

moved that the bill, as amended, be concurred in.

(Motion agreed to.)

Migratory Birds Convention Act, 1994Government Orders

4:10 p.m.

Ottawa South Ontario

Liberal

John Manley Liberalfor the Minister of the Environment

moved that the bill be read the third time and passed

Migratory Birds Convention Act, 1994Government Orders

4:10 p.m.

Lachine—Lac-Saint-Louis Québec

Liberal

Clifford Lincoln LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment

Mr. Speaker, in his book The Living Planet , David Attenborough, the British zoologist, tells the story of an ecosystem off the coast of Peru. Several decades ago, two islands, Chincha and San Gallan, were home to about 5.5 million guanay, a type of cormorant. The guanay lived within this very rich ecosystem, feeding on small anchovies that were abundant in the area.

The guanay produced guano, the accumulated excrement used by Indians and others as fertilizer. Excrement fell into the sea and fed the plankton which, in turn, fed the anchovies. It was a perfectly balanced ecosystem.

When chemical fertilizers were developed, the Peruvians decided it was easier to buy fertilizer at the store instead of harvesting it on the islands. The birds were no longer needed. And meanwhile, the Peruvians started harvesting more and more of the small anchovies. In one year, they caught 14,000 tonnes! As a result, hundreds of thousands of guanay died, and guano production dropped to zero. The plankton were no longer fertilized, and their numbers deteriorated to the point that the anchovies practically disappeared.

The moral of this true story is that the ecosystem maintains an almost perfect natural balance. However, when one link is removed, the whole chain is destroyed.

I guess this is the reason for Bill C-23. We are trying to preserve the ecosystem by doing our utmost to preserve our species in Canada. Therefore I am glad to have this opportunity to speak on the amendments to the Migratory Birds Convention Act and to commend fellow members of Parliament for the interest they have shown and for their tremendous contribution in the Standing Committee on the Environment and Sustainable Development to strengthening this legislation which protects these important species.

Bringing this bill before the House for third reading is an appropriate follow-up to Environmental Week. Bill C-23 is part of the current effort to improve federal wildlife and habitat legislation, including amending the Canada Wildlife Act. These amendments will lead to the proclamation of the wild animal and plant protection, regulation of international and interprovincial trade as well as consultations which will lead to negotiations with the United States on amending the migratory birds convention itself.

On April 25 Bill C-23 was introduced in the House of Commons on behalf of the Minister of the Environment. It will replace and repeal the current Migratory Birds Convention Act which was enacted 77 years ago in 1917.

In the early 1900s, exploitation of birds led to the drastic declines in their population, particularly in eastern North America. The migratory birds convention was therefore signed by Canada and the United States in 1916 committing each country to protect migratory birds from indiscriminate slaughter and to sustain their populations.

The Migratory Birds Convention Act was enacted in 1917 to implement the terms of the convention in Canada by managing the harvest of ducks, geese and of other game birds and by protecting migratory non-game birds.

Provisions of the act are designed to regulate hunting, prevent trafficking and commercialization, control the uses of migratory birds through permits and allow for the creation of migratory birds sanctuaries in order to control and manage areas important for the protection of the birds. There are currently 101 migratory bird sanctuaries in Canada which together protect approximately 11.3 million hectares.

The act has remained relatively unchanged over the last 77 years with only minor additions and amendments. In the context of the 1990s natural resource management must incorporate not only the environmental objectives but also must meet social, cultural and of course economic concerns.

The amendments proposed in Bill C-23 are designed to ensure the sustainable life of migratory birds and their enjoyment by Canadians. They also address our international commitments to the wise management of an internationally shared resource, and are consistent with the objectives of the Convention on Biological Diversity.

The Convention on Biological Diversity is one of the most tangible and important results of the earth summit in Rio two years ago. It was ratified by Canada in December 1992 and requires that countries regulate or manage biological resources to ensure their conservation and sustainable use and that countries establish a system of protected areas to conserve biodiversity.

A comprehensive review of Environment Canada's regulations was conducted in 1993, including a review of the regulations adopted pursuant to the Migratory Birds Convention Act. The consultation process involved a broad range of stakeholders including hunters, aviculturists, taxidermists, farmers, members of environmental and wildlife groups, representatives of aboriginal peoples, researchers, provincial and territorial wildlife agencies, outfitters and representatives of industry. The findings of the review suggested improvement to streamline the administration, to modernize procedures and make the regulations more enforceable.

A process not related to this bill is currently under way to amend the migratory birds convention in order to address aboriginal and treaty rights, harvest birds during the closed season as well as harvest eggs. That process involving extensive consultations with aboriginal people's organizations will lead to negotiations with the United States to amend the convention itself. In the meantime, special measures that allow continued pursuit of traditional harvesting in the spring and early summer are in place to address the closed season harvest of migratory birds.

Preparing amendments to the Migratory Birds Convention Act has required extensive consultation on the federal regulations designed to protect these birds.

After second reading, there was another opportunity for consultation on the proposed changes when the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development carried out a thorough study of the bill, with some excellent comments by a wide range of witnesses. Several changes proposed by the committee have been included, and I am therefore confident that the bill now better reflects the interests of all Canadians and will help us protect migratory birds effectively, now and in the future.

Many of these amendments are so-called housekeeping amendments to update and clarify existing provisions. Major changes include much higher fines for offences, greater flexibility in sentencing for the courts, better protection for migratory birds and stricter and more efficient implementation procedures.

In using its power to legislate on these issues, Parliament reflects the values of Canadians and their interest in protecting our wildlife heritage. These changes will be compatible with other federal acts that regulate natural resources and the environment. Implementation of this legislation will be flexible, while acting as a major deterrent to unlawful activities.

The poaching and smuggling of migratory birds is a lucrative and growing business. Growing demand for Canadian species of migratory birds and eggs is increasing their value and could put some species at risk.

A serious offence under the act is one in which an illegal activity is detrimental to the survival of a species, as such is the case when the activity involves an endangered species or a large quantity of specimens of a threatened or other species.

Based on these factors, the committee decided to increase substantially the penalties for offences beyond what was proposed in the original bill. It must be recalled that the original bill, passed in 1917, is now 77 years old and what used to constitute significant fines then are completely insignificant today.

For serious offences, the maximum fine will be increased from $300 in the existing bill to $100,000 for an individual or $250,000 for a corporation with provisions for increasing fines for a continuing or subsequent offence.

The courts will also have greater flexibility in imposing sentences by providing court authority for special orders. Such orders can be particularly effective in the case of environmental legislation where those convicted can be ordered to remedy the harm, pay for their remediation, avoid activity which could lead to repeat offences, publish the facts relating to the case or perform community service.

They allow the courts to take into account not only the nature of the offence but also the particular circumstances of the person convicted. Therefore it allows for constructive and creative sentencing.

Amending the Migratory Birds Convention Act has given us an opportunity to consider how, in the future, we can react to activities that are a threat to migratory birds. In accordance with the Biodiversity Convention, the sperm, embryos, and tissue cultures of migratory birds will now be included under the act. Eggs are already protected under the legislation. Although there is no immediate threat to migratory birds in this respect, there are constantly new developments in the use of biological materials.

Instead of preventing such uses, the act, as amended, is designed to ensure that these developments do not threaten the conservation of migratory birds and the many benefits they bring to Canadians. Activities associated with tissue cultures and the use of sperm, eggs and embryos of migratory birds will be regulated and managed through licensing programs.

As I mentioned previously, natural resource management must incorporate not only environmental and economic concerns but social and cultural values as well. Canada's aboriginal people have lived in harmony with the land and its wildlife for many centuries, for thousands of years as they say. Their heritage and even their survival have been linked to the sustainable use of wildlife resources.

Migratory birds have had a particular significance to aboriginal peoples with a great tradition of knowledge developed over many generations, engendering both respect for the birds and an ability to ensure their sustainable use.

In response to testimony from several witnesses, the standing committee amended the original bill to better reflect aboriginal concerns by including a non-derogation clause in the bill. It states: "that nothing in this act shall be construed so as to abrogate or derogate from any existing aboriginal treaty rights of the aboriginal peoples of Canada under section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982".

This in itself is not sufficient to accommodate and respond to the traditional practices of Canada's aboriginal peoples. For this reason, a separate process is under way, as I mentioned earlier, to address aboriginal and treaty rights to harvest migratory birds during the closed season as well as the harvest of eggs.

Consultations with aboriginal peoples have been intensive over the past four years and will lead to negotiations with the United States later this year to amend the migratory birds convention. In the meantime special enforcement measures that allow continued pursuit of traditional harvesting in the spring and early summer are in place to address the closed season harvest of migratory birds under the existing and amended act.

The standing committee believes that Parliament must be given the opportunity to examine any changes to the convention following these or any future negotiations. For this reason, the committee added a provision to Bill C-23 which states that any amendment to the convention shall be submitted to both houses of Parliament and be debated here in the House of Commons.

A number of enforcement provisions have also been updated and strengthened in Bill C-23. These include provisions relating to inspections, searches, seizures, forfeiture and disposal of property as well as others consistent with the Criminal Code, the charter of rights and other federal enactments respecting the environment and natural resources.

The Minister of the Environment may also designate any person or class of persons to act as game officers. If these persons are employed by the government of a province, the appointment must be approved by that provincial government.

I mentioned the enforcement provisions at the end of my summary of the more substantive changes to the act. The reason for this is that it brings up an issue extremely important to the conservation of wildlife. Neither the federal government nor a provincial government, or for that matter the governments of other countries, can hope to effectively conserve biodiversity in isolation. Co-operation and partnership are the keys to achieving this goal and other goals linked to sustainable development.

From a point of view of both practicality and effectiveness the issue of enforcement is one in which a co-ordinated federal-provincial approach makes the most sense. There are many other areas for which this approach generates benefits, where the objectives and concerns are shared and where building on each other's strengths through co-operative action improves environmental results.

An excellent example of such a partnership is the international North American Waterfowl Management Plan. The plan, originally signed in 1986 is an initiative to protect and enhance wetland and upland habitat on a continental basis so as to stem the decline of waterfowl. The NAWMP has evolved from a plan focused on waterfowl conservation to one that incorporates benefits toward biodiversity conservation.

The plan exemplifies sustainable development in action by involving private land owners and resource sectors to integrate wildlife conservation practices with sustainable economic development, particularly through soil and water conservation initiatives.

Partners include the United States federal and state governments, NGOs and certainly all Canadian provinces. As well Mexico is now a full partner, making the North American Waterfowl Management Plan a truly continental conservation plan.

On June 9 of this year the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment signed the update to the plan extending Canada's commitment for another five years.

As the minister pointed out, the success of the plan in the last six years has been to arrest the destruction and the loss of wetland habitat for migratory birds. Our common goal for the next five years is to set aside more breeding grounds and to see our skies filled with an annual migration of 100 million birds.

This co-operative approach offers some advantages for several other facets of wildlife conservation, some of which will be dealt with on third reading of the Canada Wildlife Act.

Bill C-23 which amends the Migratory Birds Convention Act represents a major step forward in the protection and conservation of migratory birds and in the fulfilment of our commitments under the Biodiversity Convention.

This year, 1994, another three species of birds were added to the endangered species list of Canada. In April 1994 the list was made public and we learned that the bobwhite, the king rail and the Acadian flycatcher were added to Canada's list of endangered species.

The Committee on the Status of Endangered Wildlife in Canada stated:

Again this year, we are finding that we are designating species particularly from southern Ontario and the Okanagan area of British Columbia-

It stressed that the big problem for many species is that they were running out of places to live. The Acadian flycatcher, for example, is a songbird that needs large tracks of forest which are increasingly scarce.

I quote from one member of the committee:

You can immediately see that as we cut up the forest into smaller and smaller patches there have been smaller and smaller numbers of these birds, and now it's down to a critical level of just a few dozen pairs.

This is the story as we deplete habitats. I know some will say this act is not important in itself, that it only concerns birds, and what are birds at a time of economic downturn when people are out of work and Canada faces a tremendous economic crisis. At the same time I would suggest that birds are part of the whole.

We have to look at the broader context of our heritage as a country and as a people. There can be no heritage without nature and all its components. Can we imagine Canada without the snow geese? Can we imagine Canada without its wildlife, without all its birds? Our heritage has been bestowed on us; we are blessed that way. We have to make a special effort to conserve, to preserve or to maintain that heritage for future generations.

There are good signs. The peregrine falcon had almost disappeared, and due to the efforts of volunteers all across Canada and a tremendous dedication by our wildlife services, including the federal wildlife service, the peregrine falcon is thriving again.

We must resolve ourselves to take very seriously matters that touch environment, quality of life, our ecosystems and habitats that preserve our birds and our wildlife. They are essential parts of the fibre of our land, of the way we live and of our heritage. I urge all members to join with me in supporting the bill unanimously and reinforcing that resolve among us.