Debates of Oct. 19th, 1995

Law Commission Of Canada

[An hon. member]

It is a confusing bill.

[Dick Harris, Reform, Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is no wonder that I stumble on my words. The word confusion comes up right now because I am so confused about the motives of this bill. The minister is not telling the people what he is planning on doing.

I am confused about how this bill has come into the House to be debated and will come to a vote when we found an announcement that the minister is going to create this law commission. What does this debate count for? Anything? Is this a waste of time? Surely the government must have some other business to put forward.

We are going to waste time debating something that is already a done deal. If this deal is already a done deal as we saw by the announcement the other day, that means I have wasted my time in the House. The hon. member for Vancouver Quadra has wasted his time in this House. The member for Calgary North has wasted her time in this House. The Bloc member who spoke on this has wasted her time. Could we not be doing something more constructive than debating a bill that apparently already is a done deal?

I join with my Reform colleagues and the hon. members from the Bloc in opposing this bill in the strongest possible terms. It is inconsequential. It will not achieve any realistic reform to the criminal justice system. It cannot in the form it is proposed.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

The Chair never engages in debate but certainly if I can be of any assistance to any member of any party at any time, let there be no confusion that on the government's Bill C-106, the member for Prince George-Bulkley Valley does not support the government's bill.

[Dick Harris, Reform, Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order I want to make it clear that I do not support Bill C-106.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member in his remarks questions why we would be debating this bill today when as he suggests it is some kind of a done deal. He knows full well that the bill is not passed until it is passed.

I am sure the hon. member would not for the world miss an opportunity nor would his colleagues have missed the opportunity to take the time of the House and tell Canadians how undeserving and unworthy this bill was of support. Having taken all his time to do this, something he figures was not worth his time in the first place nor worth the time of this House, maybe he will not find it worth his time to reply to my question. We will see.

This bill which sets up this renewed law commission states very clearly in clause 6 that the commission is accountable through the minister to Parliament for the conduct of its affairs. That is a fairly clear statement, that this commission is accountable to Parliament. It is Parliament that will make decisions about changes in law.

I am wondering what his comment is, what he thinks about the very clear statement that this commission is accountable to Parliament and not anybody else. It is accountable to Parliament. Does he believe what is written in the law on which he will have a chance to vote?

[Dick Harris, Reform, Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the question. Clause 6 does say that, but let us examine what accountable through the minister to Parliament really means. In other words, Parliament will have no opportunity to question members of the law commission, only the minister. That is sort of a misleading explanation of accountability.

We all know that unfortunately the Liberal Party has a majority in this House. Quite frankly, on very few occasions do I see the Liberal Party or any of the ministers really paying any attention to what the opposition members say. Every amendment that we ever put through to the Minister of Justice has been defeated by the government. This indicates that the Liberals have a clear agenda that they are going to follow regardless of what arguments the opposition members bring up in the House.

The idea of the law commission being accountable to Parliament through the minister really is just a smoke and mirrors thing. The only way that could work would be if we had a minority govern-

ment, where the government did not have an absolute majority in the House.

If our party put amendments or recommendations for the criminal justice system to the law commission, if the minister did not want it to happen it simply would not happen because of the majority in this House. Although I appreciate the structure of the words in clause 6, I believe they are totally unworkable as far as accountability is concerned.

[Jean Augustine, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I rise in support of Bill C-106, an act respecting the Law Commission of Canada. In doing so, I want to focus on one particular aspect of the approach to law reform embodied in the legislation: the emphasis on consultation in the bill.

If I may, I would take a minute to define the term "consultation". Consultation is a word that over the years has been sucked into the chilly abstract vocabulary of social and organizational planning and also has become a part of the technical jargon of experts and specialists. Sometimes in the House the word "consultation" seems to take on a negative connotation.

In talking about consultation in the bill, I am talking about consultation as a living, social process, the antithesis of arbitrary rule, and what is in a positive sense the soul of the democratic system of government; that is, asking what one thinks and getting a response and acting on the response.

When parties bring their policies before the public at election time or other times, that is consultation on the most basic scale. The building of democracy consists in large part in consulting ever more broadly and thoroughly, involving all who have a stake in the process. By consulting one looks at all the players, all those the end result of consultation would affect.

All members of both Houses at this moment are working in a mode of consultation. We are doing the nation's business in a consultation mode. That is, when we are considering something that is before us we see the importance of consultation, the importance of sharing with the stakeholders and getting the views of all stakeholders and bringing this to the discussion.

The agenda of law reform is set by the challenges of the times. It is a continuing task of renovation, identifying existing problems and new trends, and of dealing with the areas of the law in which time and change have revealed gaps and insufficiencies. That task was once handled for the most part by lawyers and legal professionals, toiling in the framework of the royal commission or other temporary bodies. It was shouldered by a permanent law reform commission, which operated from 1972 until 1992, when it was abolished by the previous government to the general dismay of the legal profession.

In the election platform of 1993 we said we would reverse that action. At the same time, we recognized that we should do more than restore the previous commission in a form identical to that prescribed in the early 1970s. We wanted to give that reform life and energy.

The agenda of law reform is shaped in direction and detail by the social and economic environment of the time. That agenda has been utterly transformed since the structure and approach of the previous commission was laid down by Parliament nearly a quarter of a century ago. Times have changed. It is different. We are in different times because Canada is different. First of all, there has been a far-reaching social transformation. In 1971 we were a country of 21 million. In 1995 we are approaching 30 million in population. The demographic and cultural composition of our population is different, 1971 to now. We are also 25 years further down the road in terms of our democratic evolution.

Consultation has now been incorporated by custom and institution into our way of life and our way of doing things. Canadians of our time, including the generation that grew up with the charter of rights and freedoms, take it for granted that they will have a part in the making of policies that affect their lives. Meanwhile, transformations in technology, trade, and industrial structure have made the Canadian economy more complex.

As a result of change at all these levels, the inadequacies that make law reform necessary reveal themselves not only in the courtroom but in other settings. They emerge in the marketplace, the workplace, the home, the scientific laboratory, the social welfare centre, and at the centres of learning of about a dozen disciplines. These trends have made it more important that law reform become a co-operative enterprise informed by expertise in many fields.

The process that has brought this bill before us today has been open and consultative from the start. The Minister of Justice knows the benefit of consultation. This process began with two original consultations. They brought together representatives of the academic community, the judiciary, provincial governments, and also non-governmental organizations with an interest in law reform.

The process continued in 1994 with the distribution of a consultation paper on the structure and modus operandi of the new commission. That document went to over 800 groups and individuals and to all members of the two chambers of Parliament.

To illustrate the breadth of the consultation, the organizations involved included, to name a few, the Canadian Medical Association, the Elizabeth Fry Society, the John Howard Society, women's groups, multicultural groups, aboriginal associations, et cetera. Of

course the process also allowed the full and active participation of experts in law. The Canadian Institute for the Administration of Justice held a nation-wide consultation with judges on the proposed law commission. The federal Department of Justice conducted a consultation with legal academics from all provinces. In addition, the subject has been discussed at meetings of the ministers responsible for justice in the federal, provincial, and territorial governments and at other meetings involving both the legal and non-legal communities. That is consultation.

The legislation now before us has been shaped by many hands and moulded by experience in many fields. It is the product of consultation. It proposes an instrument for doing the work of law reform in the same mode. That commitment is reflected on every page of this bill. It starts with the first paragraph of the legislation, which says the advice the commission will provide will be based, and I quote, "on the knowledge and experience of a wide range of groups and individuals".

The first of the five guiding principles in the preamble is that the commission's work should be open and inclusive of all Canadians. This approach is also expressed in the organizational design of the new law commission. Clause 7, which deals with organization, says, in effect, that the five commissioners need not be lawyers or judges or other legal professionals. Indeed, it specifically states that the membership should be representative of the socio-economic and cultural diversity of Canadian society.

As an aside, I heard from the other side that we should have a number of parliamentarians sitting on that commission. Of course there are opportunities here for the full participation of the diversity of Canadian society.

The four part time commissioners would live wherever their homes are, where their full time jobs and occupations require them to be. This means that at the executive level the commission would be linked personally and directly with the concerns of main street Canada.

Clause 18 describes the advisory council of the commission, which will comprise 25 people serving on a voluntary basis-I repeat, voluntary basis-appointed by the commission. Like the commission members, the members of the council itself would be generally representative of the diversity of Canadian society. Its members will advise the commission on such things as strategic issues, review of its annual report, agenda setting and performance review. A varied blend of training and experience will be applied to the basic shaping of the process as it responds to the issues of the day.

Clause 20 allows for an even further extension of the commission's connections with other disciplines and backgrounds. Under this clause the commission can bring in voluntary experts and specialists in any aspect of law reform to serve as members of temporary study panels. I am stressing the words "temporary" and "voluntary" because the Reformers who spoke earlier seemed to miss that in the bill.

Clause 23 is important in this regard. It ensures the products of work done in this mode will not disappear into a vault but will emerge without delay into the public domain for inspection and discussion. The minister must table any commission report to the two chambers of Parliament in session within 15 days of receiving it.

In short, the commission created by this bill will be itself part of a wider network of collaboration in the work of law reform. It will allow us to renew and extend the architecture of law on the basis of an expert understanding of the complex issues involved. It will permit us to do so efficiently, effectively, and at a manageable cost.

This bill is a blueprint for a law commission that will meet the needs of our time, a body that will be known not only for the legal soundness of its products but also for the relevance of its work on the issues of our time. This bill will meet an urgent need. It deserves our support. It deserves the support of all the members of this House.

[Mary Clancy, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to join in the debate in this area. The area of law reform is one of special interest and special concern to those of us who have in the past been involved in the legal profession. It should be of interest to all of us as legislators.

Having been here all morning, I have listened, sometimes in shock, to some of the comments that have come particularly from the members of the third party with regard to a need for this bill. It may be a good time to talk about why this bill is being brought forward.

I first want to note that one of the hon. members for Calgary noted this bill "has the justice minister's fingerprints all over it". Well, it is his bill. I would hope it would have his fingerprints all over it. I wonder whose fingerprints should be on it if not those of the Minister of Justice. The Minister of Justice, in his usual well thought out way, has indeed brought this bill forward. We would not mind the solicitor general's fingerprints on it either, but as it happens this bill is brought forward by the Minister of Justice.

I want to talk about the law commission because tremendous things have come from bodies of this nature both at the national level and in various provinces where these bodies exist.

I listened, more in sorrow than in anger, to members opposite talk about Liberal flunkeys. I think of the people who have served on law reform commissions. Those comments ill serve anybody who wishes to be a public servant. In particular, I think of members of the former law reform commission, Mr. Justice Linden, for example. I recall Mr. Justice Linden's coming to a parliamentary committee where he and I crossed swords in an admirable debate on a bill which his commission had brought forward.

Mr. Justice Linden was then of the Ontario high court, as it was known. He is now with the appeal division of the Federal Court of Canada. He is the author of a torts textbook which all of us in the House who went through law school had the pleasure to read. We were taught very well by Mr. Justice Linden through his publications, textbooks and articles. To refer to him as a Liberal flunkey does a great disservice to the bench, the bar and Canadians who serve their country.

In my province of Nova Scotia one of the many lawyers and lay persons who have served so well on law reform commissions is the former dean of Dalhousie Law School, Professor William Charles. He was known across Canada as a law teacher. He was one of the founders of the University of Victoria law school when the University of Victoria asked Dalhousie law school to send professors to help it start a law school. He is unparalleled in his respect across the country in legal circles as someone learned in the law, a law reformer, a law teacher and a legal administrator.

I think of the current president of the University of Calgary, Murray Fraser, another former acting dean and associate dean at Dalhousie Law School. He was the first dean of the University of Victoria law school. He served on the Law Reform Commission of Canada back in the middle seventies before he went on to Victoria.

In Nova Scotia, where politics are taken with pabulum, the Fraser family would be taken aback to hear President Fraser referred to as a Liberal flunkey or a flunkey of any kind. That kind of pejorative talk is unfortunate.

It is perhaps because certain political parties are new to the legislative process that it behoves those of us who have been around a little longer to talk about-

[Darrel Stinson, Reform, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Far too long.

[Mary Clancy, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

Not according to the people of Nova Scotia.

The people on the Law Reform Commission of Canada and the various provincial law commissions have a job quite different from that of legislators. I have served for seven years in the House. Mr. Speaker, you and I served together on a legislative committee, which I am sure will go down in your memory, when we were in opposition.

Legislative committees are one of the areas along with the Chamber where parliamentarians from both sides of the House can make their wishes, their policy concerns and their concerns generally for the development of legislation heard. That is what we are here for, no question.

A law commission is instituted for those areas that parliamentarians, busy with their daily jobs, do not have time to delve into. The vast majority of members are not lawyers, which is a good thing. The vast majority of members are certainly not academics and, heaven knows, the vast majority of members are not what one could call intellectuals. Consequently we are not in the business of doing the kind of legal research, exploration and prognostication-look it up-that leads to legislation in good government and prods governments to move in ways in the best interests of the country.

That is why people of the calibre of Mr. Justice Linden, Professor William Charles and President Murray Fraser have served at the provincial and federal levels along with hundreds of other Canadians. They have served with one desire and one desire only, to do good for their country.

For members of the opposition to use this bill, which fulfils a red book promise, as some sort of partisan stick with which they think they are beating the government not only cheapens the process when we consider the source but it says to Canadians we do not want their participation in the public process.

We on this side of the House do not say that. Three million dollars for this law commission is a low price to pay for the tremendous contribution of the people who will serve on this commission. What a low price to pay for the tremendous work they will do, for the hours of research, for the incredible gift of their thoughts, hard work and dedication to Canada.

It reminds me of a bit of a cliché about optimists and pessimists, certainly something that has been repeated often; the idea that an optimist sees a glass half full and a pessimist sees a glass half empty. When it comes to the boards and commissions that help us run the country, that advise the government, prod the government, in many cases boards and commissions at arm's length from the government with quasi-judicial functions on behalf of the people of Canada, the glass from my point of view is more than merely half full, it is full.

How very lucky we are in Canada that there are legions of citizens delighted to fulfil this role when many of them could be making more money and certainly taking a whole lot less abuse in other endeavours.

Having dealt summarily with the unusual and perhaps ill-informed comments from the other side, I will talk a bit about the bill. What is the commission created for? It is to fulfil the needs of the government and Parliament for independent, broadly based,

strategic advice on legal policy and law reform issues. That seems to me a fairly straightforward and clear statement of intent.

Independence means not connected to the party in government or the party in opposition. I realize there are many times when the third party does not really behave like a political party. If a party has not been in existence very long and does not have much history, it really does not understand how political parties behave. However, according to the office of the Chief Electoral Officer, it is a political party. It may be tragic. It may be unfortunate but it is a political party. It appears to be a political party with more than its share of empty barrels. As a political party it is not considered independent.

The hon. member for Calgary suggested her party could do this independently. It may well be its neophyte status in Parliament that under the rules of Parliament, even being the third party, it does not qualify as independent. There are other adjectives such as strategic, legal, et cetera, which it may not qualify for as well. I would not comment on those, heaven forbid.

I remind members of the third party as well as my trusting and beloved colleagues on this side of the House that keeping red book promises is very important.

[Darrel Stinson, Reform, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

It is called patronage with a capital P .

[Mary Clancy, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

A three syllable word, well done. When I sat on the other side of the House and saw the law reform commission disbanded, I along with many of my colleagues was very unhappy. I knew how important it was to the development of legislation.

One of the things the law commission does is provide a critical eye and a distinctive perspective on modernizing the law. The word modernizing is very important. Words like modernize, progressive and forward looking along with independent and strategic may not be words familiar to some of our colleagues.

The commission will have five guiding principles. It will approach the law from a multi-disciplinary perspective, and this is very important. As I said before, one cannot leave the making of the law and the creativity of law reform merely to lawyers or legislators. One needs to bring in people from all walks of life, to listen to them, to hear what they need.

When I taught law I used to tell my students the law is a reactive social science. In general law will come into existence to react to a specific need, to specific a situation.

Sometimes, as in the case of human rights law, the law is proactive. For many of us, especially those enamoured of human rights law and who see this as one of the brightest lights in our parliamentary careers, the law then becomes proactive.

In general it is reactive and it is the job of a law commission to delve into the hearts and minds of the people in a way that legislators and lawyers in the legislatures do not have the time to do. They have a specific job which they will be doing all the time whereas legislators, contrary to the rather superficial responses of the third party, have other things to do.

We as legislators and as members of Parliament have casework, committee work, political work, travelling back and forth to our ridings. It is a massive job, which I do not have to tell anyone here, including members of the third party.

Consequently if one is to serve the people as one should with the law reform commission one needs people who will dedicate all their time to the particular necessities and exigencies of law reform.

This seems a fairly simple statement and a fairly simple concept to grasp. Obviously it is not in some cases, but I can do only what I have been asked by the people controlling the debate. The chips will have to fall where they may, in empty barrels or elsewhere.

There are five guiding principles. I have talked about the first one, a multi-disciplinary perspective being open and inclusive by making its work more accessible and understandable to all Canadians. This is something that is very dear to my heart.

I taught undergraduates in several universities in Nova Scotia in areas of law, family law, legal status of women, law and aging, and environmental law. I always found it terribly important to demystify the legal process for the majority of Canadians.

A legitimate complaint that comes to us both as legislators and lawyers is that the law is mumbo-jumbo. There are legal documents and pieces of legislation that the average Canadian does not understand what we are on about. Part of the work of the law reform commission is to make the law more accessible and understandable for Canadians and to utilize innovative research, consultation and management practices through new technologies.

As we approach the millennium we have exploding technology in the country. We are one of the leading countries on earth, if not the leading in certain high tech areas. Except for the people trained in those particular disciplines, to the vast majority of Canadians a lot of this is very mystifying.

How much more mystifying is the regulatory and legislative process that surrounds us? Ergo, how much more necessary is it to have the law reform commission take on the job of making sure that as the legislation is brought forward to the government it will be less mystifying to Canadians?

Another important point is being responsible and accountable to key groups affected by law reform through partnerships that build on existing knowledge and expertise. Since it came into power two years ago the government has talked about the question of partnerships. We talked about partnerships between business and government. We talked about partnerships between interest groups and government. It is one reason we have seen massive consultations in all sorts of areas between the government and the people. The people of Canada appreciate that consultation because the previous government of not so blessed memory had no history of consulting with Canadians except in a very few cases.

A law commission gives an opportunity for Canadians to come forward with their concerns about developing areas and the things they would like to see. They can come forward to help develop law in areas that provide for good government. In effect it is a tool of democracy. It is one when we were in opposition we were very distressed to see removed. It is one that we promised in the red book we would reinstate. I could not be happier that we are fulfilling this promise, fingerprints of the Minister of Justice or not.

Next is the achieving of cost effectiveness in operation and the recommendations and advice it provides. This goes back to the well meant but misguided comments of my colleague on the other side who talked about the cost. The cost for Parliament to do the work of the law reform commission in time, in person hours-

[Dick Harris, Reform, Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Reform Party members will do it for nothing.

[Mary Clancy, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

They will do it for nothing. It is probably like throwing in 10 per cent of their salaries and all that stuff. I notice some of them are not talking about the pensions over there.

That is not what Parliament was elected to do. If my hon. colleagues do not understand that perhaps they need job descriptions. Parliament was elected to represent the people, to debate in the Chamber, to review legislation in legislative committees, to deal with various and sundry public policies in standing committees, et cetera, to do constituency work, and to deal with our political duties.

I can only say that if members of the third party feel they have the time-and I am not even going to get into the questions of expertise-to be a law reform commission, thank the powers that be we are in government and there is little or no danger of that ever taking place under the current government.

I am delighted to support the legislation. I am delighted we are fulfilling a red book promise. I am delighted there will once again be a law commission to serve the needs of Canadians.

[Dick Harris, Reform, Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I listened to the hon. member for Halifax who mentioned quite truthfully that there was not a vast number of lawyers in the House and that there was not a vast number of intellectuals. I agree with her. The problem is that we have a vast number of Liberals in the House. That is where the problems come from.

The hon. member spoke about the benefits of establishing the law commission. Let us go back and look at the history of the law reform commission holding hands with the Liberal government. For example, the law commission came into being in 1971. Lo and behold in 1976, and I assume at the suggestion, advice and direction of the law commission which is there to represent the will and the opinions of the people, we find section 745 of the Criminal Code was amended in the House to eliminate capital punishment in Canada, to provide for the eligibility of first degree murderers given a life sentence of 25 years to apply for early parole after 15 years. These provisions were brought forward by the member for Notre-Dame-de-Grâce who was a Liberal and still is a Liberal, working hand in hand with the Liberal appointed law commission.

Poll after poll has shown when polls are taken in an honest fashion of average Canadians, something that the Liberal government does not relate to, that they would support capital punishment and always have. Poll after poll has shown that Canadians are disgusted with the fact that violent murderers given life sentences can apply for early parole and in most cases get it after 15 years. Poll after poll has shown that the people of Canada do not appreciate these parts of the law.

How can the member for Halifax stand and say that the law reform commission, holding hands with the Liberal government, is reflecting the will of the Canadian people? I should like to ask her some specific questions.

These are some of the things Canadians have told us are wrong with the justice system, some of the things that would have been fixed if the law reform commission had been an effective body that listened to the will of the people.

First is the delay in implementing the use of DNA testing, which at the insistence of our party the government finally got around to. Had the law commission prior to being disbanded in 1992, and maybe it did, recommended to the government of the day that DNA testing be brought in, perhaps we would not have had to wait so long and perhaps some of the murderers who have gone free because we did not have access to this way of gathering evidence would be behind bars right now.

If the law commission was so effective, how come it took us until 1995 to deal with the drunken defence used in the courts? Why did it take us that long if the law commission was so good?

I talked about parole eligibility. If the law reform commission was so good, why has it not closed the loopholes in parole eligibility? What about violent criminals being let out of prison early? If the law reform commission was so good, why do we have violent criminals walking the streets because some parole board has screwed up its decisions? Who is charged with fixing those mistakes?

Let us talk about what upsets Canadians most of all, the grand idea of condoning plea bargaining in our justice system. Canadians are fed up with seeing people accused of crimes plea bargaining away the more violent sections of the crime in order for the courts to give a lesser sentence and get a sure conviction.

If the law reform commission is so good, why do we have so many things wrong with the criminal justice system? The fact remains that the laws of the country are made by lawyers for lawyers with little regard for the opinions, concerns and wishes of Canadians. If it were not that way we would not have so many problems with the justice system.

Canadians have had enough with law commissions and a Liberal government that treat criminals as if they have special rights. In 1982 the Liberal government brought in a Constitution and in the section on rights granted more rights to people who break the law than to people who keep the law. That is an absolute disgrace and the legislation will not change a thing.

[Mary Clancy, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the comments of the hon. member because what I hear in them is a real cri du coeur. I understand his being upset about certain situations that he perceives to be developing in the country. There are several things to consider but let me deal with a number of comments he made.

With regard to the problem of there being a Liberal government, I would only say to the hon. member that the government was duly elected in a very democratic process. A majority of Canadians elected a majority of Liberals. We are here to represent the wishes of our constituents, just as the hon. member is here to represent the wishes of his. It so happens that a majority of Canadians picked this Liberal government. I understand he does not like it. I understand he does not agree with it, but there it is. It is a fait accompli and unfortunately he will have to deal with it. I suspect he will have to deal with it after the next election as well, but we will wait and see.

There is a real misconception in the land with regard to criminal activity. This is not to minimize the criminal activity that takes place but unfortunately some of our hon. colleagues in the third party are overly influenced by American television and American newspapers. The crime rate is not rising in this country over all. It is rising in the United States; it is not rising here. As a matter of fact in certain sectors it is dropping, but good news unfortunately is not something the third party deals in.

I will certainly not deal with the member's meanderings on the issue of capital punishment. As my constituents well know I have been against capital punishment from the first time I ever heard of it. I will continue to be against capital punishment for the rest of my life. The people of Halifax know well what my feelings are on this and other issues, never having been one to hide my opinions.

I go back to what the hon. member said about the law commission. With the greatest of respect it shows he does not understand it. The law reform commission is not the House of Commons and the House of Commons is not the law reform commission. They are two separate entities with two separate jobs. The law reform commission is there to research and recommend. Then the government and the House of Commons can accept or reject its recommendations. In many cases those recommendations are accepted; in other cases they are rejected.

They talk about it being hand and glove with the Liberal government. I merely ask the member to take any list of the previous members of the Law Reform Commission of Canada, or of those provinces that have law reform commissions, and he will see people who have served their country, served their province and served their community in ways the third party would like very much to be able to emulate.

We are talking about people who are eminent members of their communities, holders of the Order of Canada, people who have been honoured by non-partisan members of their community. I for one find this disappointing, tragic, and I would go so far as to say despicable, that they would cast aspersions on the characters of such a large group of public servants, of people who serve Canada.

Why would these people cast aspersions on people who wish to serve their country? Why is membership on a federal board or committee, a provincial board or committee, or a municipal board or committee something that should taint you? I am appalled that anyone would suggest this. I am appalled that there is such a narrow and angry and sad view of public service in this country by the hon. members of the third party, that they do not rejoice in the opportunity to serve Canada, in the opportunity to stand up and say how lucky we are to be in the House of Commons or how lucky our constituents are to be able to serve their country.

If they do not feel that way, I can only say we feel on this side of the House a great sorrow for them at the loss in their public participation.

[Shaughnessy Cohen, Liberal, Windsor—St. Clair, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is always a pleasure to follow the member for Halifax, if only because very often there is nothing left to say so I can speak much more briefly.

First of all, I want to comment on how this bill fits in with the overall Liberal vision and the overall Liberal plan for Canada. I think the Reform Party is shortsighted when they criticize this bill only on the limited grounds they have set out. In reality, justice issues in many respects are economic issues. I say this because I come from a community, Windsor and Essex county, that has prospered as it leaves the recession. We are probably on the leading edge of recovery from the last recession.

I have noticed at home, and our city leaders and our citizens have noticed as well, that as our community becomes more prosperous, as we have more jobs, as we have a healthier community economically, we have a healthier community in other ways. When we look at the health of the community and we look at how we have been affected by this recovery from the recession, or partial recovery from the recession, what we see is that violent crime has gone down, other forms of crime have decreased, and the pressure of social problems has lessened. This is because the community is in better shape economically.

In the early 1980s, when the last great recession hit, I was practising law in Windsor, not as a young lawyer but as a new lawyer. I did a bit of matrimonial law in addition to my regular criminal practice. It was devastating, because as there were layoffs at the auto plants and at the feeder plants it seemed there were more marriage breakdowns. As there were more marriage breakdowns, it seemed that my practice in what were then called juvenile delinquents, young offenders, increased in terms of criminal law. It seemed to me also that I had to deal with more domestic violence in my practice.

Subsequently, when I began to prosecute I found the same thing. With economic waves and downturns and the economic roller-coaster we have experienced in the recent past in Windsor, domestic violence and other forms of violence increased. There were more robberies, more property offences, more break-ins. You could see and palpably feel the link between economic health and social health in our community.

When Reform talks about the justice system they should do so within the greater framework of economic development in our communities. A community with a healthy economic base and with active ongoing economic development is a community that is going to be healthy in other areas. This is part of the Liberal program for healthy communities.

The law commission is a very small part of this. I would like to point out that this is not something we have just recently pulled out of the air; this is something for which we set aside money in our February 1995 budget. In their joint wisdoms, the Minister of Justice and the Minister of Finance agreed that setting aside a relatively small amount of money out of the overall budget for the work of the law commission was an important part of moving Canada forward, moving forward into communities like Windsor, Tecumseh, and St. Clair Beach to make them healthier.

The law commission allows us to reach into individual communities and into the broader Canadian community for advice and help as to how we can improve our justice system. As we are increasing the number of jobs in the country, over 400,000 since we were elected, as we are making the country economically more viable and as we are making it more prosperous, we are also looking at and dealing with aspects of our criminal justice system and our justice system in general that can be improved.

The Reform Party complains about the way the commission is set up. In reality, the commission is doing what the Reform Party has asked us to do. It is allowing us to go to what they call the grass roots. In reality, of course, the Reform Party's grass roots are people who think like them, who are not a majority of the country. They have a fundamental problem with democracy, which allows the majority of a country to rule.

We are not satisfied with that either. We know that not everyone who voted for us agreed with every single thing we wanted to do in the red book. We know that the people of Canada who voted for us did so because of the overall thrust of our policies, and they may have some disagreements. We are not satisfied with that. We are setting up structures that allow us to reach out to find out what is going on, what people are thinking and where we can go.

The Reform Party derides the efforts of the former law reform commission, which was summarily executed by the Conservative government. Deride that as it will, in fact this is not the old law reform commission; this is a new law commission, and it is a commission with a difference. This commission has a special mandate, which is very different from that of the old law reform commission.

When the law reform commission was eliminated there was a cry from many parts of the country, from groups that had benefited, who had been able to persuade the law reform commission that new advances were required and changes were required in the law and who saw that come to fruition in legislation. However, this law commission, with its special guiding principles-which are not just stuff we are talking about, they are actual principles we have put into the legislation-has a very real difference, which will allow us to tap into what all Canadians are thinking about our justice system.

This law commission is mandated to take a multi-disciplinary approach to law reform and to the legal system. Like the Liberal government, it sees the justice system as part of a broader social and economic environment. It is mandated to look at what people

have to say from a social work perspective and at what people have to say from labour. It is mandated to look at what people have to say who are concerned about violent crime in our communities. It is mandated to take a look at what probation officers have to say, at what parole officers have to say, and at what the people on the street have to say. It is mandated to be open and inclusive by making its work more accessible and more understandable to all Canadians.

The member for Halifax indicated that she has always believed there is a need to demystify the law. Any of us who have worked in the law know that is the case. We can work in an ivory tower, prepare our mumbo-jumbo and talk to each other with our special language and never communicate that to Canadians or to our clients. If it is a mystery, it is somehow something only a specialist can deal with.

We are not content to have that carry on. The Reform Party talks about that all the time. Yet it criticizes us for making a law commission that is open, inclusive, and makes its work accessible and understandable to all Canadians.

This law commission will utilize innovative research, consultation and management practices by utilizing new technologies, something that, as good as it was, the old law reform commission was not very good at doing. It will be responsive and accountable to key groups that are affected by law reform through partnerships that build on existing knowledge and expertise.

This is an interesting one, because this again contrasts with what the Reform Party says and what it does. The Reform Party loves to talk to us about special interest groups. It loves to accuse the government of being captive to the special interest groups. What it means is that we listen to groups it does not listen to. Its special interest groups, like the American National Rifle Association or certain alleged wildlife organizations or the people who I like to call the gunners, are of course not special interest groups. That is not what Reform members mean; they can listen to those special interest groups.

There are lots of special interest groups out there. There are groups that are interested in the welfare of human beings. There are groups that are interested in benefiting mankind and their fellow Canadians. The law commission will give them a place to go, so they do not have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars lobbying parliamentarians who are busy with other aspects of their work. It gives them a place to go and be heard. It also gives the individual a place to go and be heard as well. I cannot see how the Reform Party could object to that.

The law commission is mandated to be cost effective in its operations and in the recommendations and advice it provides. The last law commission, indeed many of the vehicles that governments have used in the past to advise them, did not have to worry about budgets or about making recommendations the government could implement in a cost effective manner. We are mandating this group to do so. We are telling them to come to us with a project or a piece of legislation and think of the economic impact that will have as well.

I would suggest that this bill is part of good Liberal government in Canada. It is part of what the majority of Canadians elected us to do.

I will never forget what the little person from the Reform Party who ran against me said. When Reform became the government-quite a leap of fancy-it would listen to Canadians. Here we are providing the vehicle to not just listen to Canadians but to go out and shake them and ask them what they think about this, so that we can incorporate their views into our overall scheme. When we try to do that, where is the Reform Party? Politics as usual. It is here heckling and arguing but it has not bothered to take a look at what this bill really does.

On that point, I would like to comment on something else I heard today, which is the use of what I would call fear tactics and fearmongering to try to scuttle a bill of the importance of this one.

When Reform members talk about violent crime, when they feed the myth that violent crime is on the upswing in Canada, they do their own constituents a disservice. It is not for them to create a false environment and then try to force the government to operate within it. It is not for them to set up a straw dog in order to knock it down. It is up to them, as a responsible third party, to focus on problems that actually exist in society.

There is no question that violent crime exists in Canada. There is no question that violent crime that exists at any level is unacceptable. However, it is wrong to suggest that it is growing and this government is doing nothing about it. It is also wrong to suggest that a law commission made up of people from every aspect of our greater Canadian community will do nothing about it.

This bill responds to Canadians. I would like to compliment the Minister of Justice for what he said when he announced this bill. It sets out a real Liberal and a real Canadian attitude to law reform. He said: "Canada's legal system faces complex legal issues that require more than a legal solution. Effective long term remedies lie in an approach that includes not only legal but social, economic and other disciplines as well. The Government of Canada believes that an independent, multi-disciplinary law reform body is essential to this process".

I would suggest that is good common sense. I would suggest that the Minister of Justice is right on. That is the Liberal vision. That is the Canadian vision.

[Russell MacLellan, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to have this opportunity to express my support for Bill C-106.

The legislation we are considering responds to the urgent need for a permanent body to advise the government on the improvement, modernization and reform of the laws of Canada. As this bill makes clear, there are many requirements to be met if this work is to succeed. We must have openness of process and the focusing of a multi-disciplined expertise on these issues.

Something else that is required is a close attention to the matter of costs by the commission both in its methods and in its goals. This was a concern expressed by the Reform Party. It is this aspect of the legislation I want to concentrate on today.

In the context of this bill, there are two aspects to the challenge of efficiency. One is the need for the commission itself to meet the test of cost effectiveness, both in its organizational architecture and in its approach. The other is the requirement that the commission's work contribute to the cost effectiveness of the Canadian legal system in general.

The structure of the commission supports these goals. Four of the five commissioners will serve on a part time basis. The members of the advisory council will serve without pay. So will the members of the temporary study panels that the commission will create to provide expert assistance on the specific issues of the day. Hon. members will also find that the administrative and the operational arrangements visualized in the bill reflect the concerns for costs.

The legislation steers the commission away from the pitfall of trying to do everything itself. As the preamble makes clear, it will promote partnerships with a wide range of interested groups and individuals, including the academic community.

The commission will save money by sharing services wherever practical. For instance, the previous commission maintained an in-house library. The new commission will make use of existing facilities. This approach is implicit in the administrative apparatus. The commission will be served by a secretariat of no more than eight people.

Unlike its predecessor body, the commission will not retain a significant body of full time researchers but will make greater use of contract help. There are several advantages to this arrangement. The most obvious is that one avoids having to hire an in-house expert specialist for every issue or alternatively, to expend time in bringing in-house staff up to speed on new agenda items.

Hon. members will also note that the bill designates the commission as a departmental corporation. This too impinges on cost effectiveness. It allows the commission to receive gifts, bequests and other donations from outside sources and to reimburse some costs through the sales of its publications.

The important question is what it will all cost. The government said as early as in the red book and has kept saying since that the commission will operate on a budget of $3 million a year, all of which will come from funds already voted. This is Spartan fare indeed considering that the previous law commission operated on approximately $5 million a year in its last operating year. Ten years ago it would not have been possible to tackle a task of this magnitude within these limits. What makes it possible today is the structure and the modus operandi outlined in the bill. What in turn makes that possible is new technology.

The bill before us recognizes the importance of that factor. The preamble incorporates as a guiding principle the requirement that the commission use new technology wherever appropriate in order to achieve, and I quote from the bill "efficiency in its operations and effectiveness in its results". The commission will do so in every phase of its operation.

For example, a large part of law reform is research, the painstaking gathering, sharing and storing of information. The use of modern information technology will make it easier and cheaper to do all of these things. The same technology will cut other costs down to size.

For example, law reform is envisaged in this legislation as a consultative process in which people from many fields and regions will present their viewpoints and reason together. In the days when that required a convergence of experts from all over Canada to one location, that activity alone would bite large holes into the operating budget. Today fortunately, we can achieve that meeting of minds at a much lower cost by making intelligent use of information technologies, for example through on-line networking, teleconferencing and video conferencing.

These new tools can also lighten the administrative load. The birth of a new organization no longer has to mean the making of a new multi-layered mini bureaucracy. On-line networking for example makes it possible for organizations to share personnel, pay and other services. The commission will take full advantage of these opportunities.

This bill is a mandate for the pursuit of efficiency, both in the internal workings of the commission and the interpretation of its mandate.

As the bill says, one function of the commission will be to recommend measures to make the legal system itself more efficient and economical. As the commission considers which of various options for reform to recommend, it will give full weight to the

element of costs, both the immediate ones and those associated with downstream economic and social impacts.

The importance of this part of the commission's role has influenced every aspect of its design. It is reflected, for example, in the emphasis in this bill on the multi-disciplinary approach to law reform, one that involves not only lawyers but also economists, scientists and other experts. Efficient solutions can only come when we see the problem in the whole context. This applies with full force to law reform.

The failure to take costs into effect leads to system overload. It weakens the administration and enforcement of the law. It undermines the confidence and credibility that sustains the law. Because the law touches on every aspect of our national life, it is detrimental to our national well-being if we do not take these cost factors into account.

Cost effectiveness, the quality of achieving a high ratio of output to input has achieved something of the status of a common cause. It is the recognized prerequisite to Canada's competitiveness on world markets. It is the key to the sustainability of the social programs which are this country's pride and its strength. It is vital to the efficiency of the legal system which has the infrastructure for everything else.

The cost effectiveness component will also allow us to bring together legal and other experts, scientists and scholars, through these technological advances to allow them to be part of improving the law in Canada. This is going to open up the whole process of law reform and the appreciation of the law in this country.

By spending less we are really going to be able to do more. Most of all, it is going to put us back in the lead of all western nations as a country that has a law reform commission or a law commission as it is in this case. In our modern society we have to have laws which are going to evolve with society. No law can be looked on as a law that will rest in its exact form for an indefinite period of time. We constantly must be looking at our laws and appraising the needs of society for changes in the laws.

If, as some members have said, this can be done through the Department of Justice, then of course we are blind to the context at which we must look at our law. We must look at our laws separate and apart from the Department of Justice so that recommendations can come to the department from outside. That is by far the healthiest way of approaching this.

Today in our society and in the world we must be conscious of the strength of the rule of law. People look to our laws and they look to our society. Part of our society is the fabric of our laws. When investment takes place it not only looks at the economic climate but it also looks at the stability of our system and the forthrightness of our laws.

This bill is going to do a great deal to enhance an already tremendous respect for the Canadian justice system throughout the world. I am very pleased we are dealing with this bill today.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

Is the House ready for the question?

[Some hon. members]

Question.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

[Some hon. members]

Yea.