Debates of Oct. 5th, 1995

Manpower Training

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Saint-Maurice, QC]

Especially since they keep saying we are empire building. Again, I want to say that we have just cut 45,000 jobs within the federal government. That is not because we want more power and more bureaucrats. The minister eliminated 5,000 jobs in his own department to make his operations even more effective and less costly for the people of this country. We are accused of empire building, when we are being extremely accommodating.

The Economy

[John Williams, Reform, St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the IMF said yesterday that the government should move faster to reduce the federal deficit to safeguard economic growth. The Auditor General of Canada said today that longer term targets for debt

should be identified beyond the two-year rolling targets that have been put forth by the Minister of Finance.

Will the Minister of Finance commit to the House that he will introduce legislation to assure Canadians and the IMF that the debt will finally be controlled?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, in fact the IMF in its report was quite complimentary of the actions the government has taken. Indeed, the report of the Auditor General of Canada was equally complimentary of the actions we have taken, both in terms of deficit reduction and in terms of the publication of information.

I have made it very clear that the process that was employed by the previous government, which was to simply set a series of long term targets, most of which occurred after an election and were never attained, was not a process we were going to follow, that in fact the series of rolling two-year targets was far more beneficial. In fact, it is as a result of that that this government has consistently hit every single target it has set.

[John Williams, Reform, St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the IMF wants to know when the debt is going to be under control. The Auditor General of Canada wants to know when it is going to be under control. Canadians want to know when it is going to be under control.

I ask the Minister of Finance if he knows, beyond his two-year rolling targets, when the deficit will be eliminated.

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, control is a condition of credibility. The government has re-established the credibility of government in terms of its projections and what it does. Control arises when a government very clearly not only hits its targets but in fact brings forth balanced legislation, a balanced program to do what it set out to do.

Our goal is deficit reduction but let us never forget that deficit reduction is an ingredient of this government's number one goal which is to make sure that more and more Canadians are working. That is what we are going to do instead of engaging in the slash and burn destructive policies of the Reform.

Federal Debt

[Richard Bélisle, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister.

The auditor general just tabled his second quarterly report. With the federal debt approaching $600 billion, he feels that Parliament and the Canadian public need more information, particularly regarding the size of the debt and the choices taxpayers will have to make.

Will the Prime Minister admit that, by waiting for the referendum to be held before giving the bad news about cuts to social programs, he is unduly delaying a public debate on the choices to be made, as requested by the auditor general?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, the auditor general fully agrees with us that, before this debate can take place-and we are all in favour of this debate-there should at least be statistical data and figures available. He made this quite clear. Last year's figures are not ready yet. As soon as they are and as soon as we get an invitation from the committee, we will gladly go before the committee.

Having said that, I would like to mention what the auditor general asked us to do. He asked us to produce an annual financial statement, and we did. He asked us to provide the public with more information on our tax expenditures, and we did. He asked us to produce an annual economic update; we did so for our first two budgets and will do so again this time around.

[Richard Bélisle, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question.

The auditor general also contends that our choices are becoming increasingly difficult.

My question is for the Minister of Finance. Will the Minister of Finance admit that this statement by the auditor general explains his government's strategy, which consists in hiding all the bad news until after the Quebec referendum?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Hide, Mr. Speaker? Tell us what a sovereign Quebec's debt level will be. Tell us how much higher interest rates will be in a sovereign Quebec. Tell us how much higher taxes will be in a sovereign Quebec? Let us lay all the cards on the table. Tell us the truth. He should tell us the truth, Mr. Speaker, about the negative impact of independence in Quebec.

Cfb Shearwater

[Ron MacDonald, Liberal, Dartmouth, NS]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of National Defence.

In the budget of two years ago, measures were announced regarding the downsizing of Canadian Forces Base Shearwater which resulted in the loss of about 700 jobs. Through perseverance and hard work that community has adjusted. However, new and unnamed DND sources are now being quoted in the media as saying that the Department of National Defence intends to com-

pletely close that base down this fall which would result in the loss of an additional 1,400 jobs.

I ask the minister to remove the anxiety these recent rumours have caused to that community by stating clearly that these latest rumours bear no relationship to the plans this government has for CFB Shearwater.

[Fred Mifflin, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for Dartmouth for his question.

As announced in the 1994 budget, the operation at Canadian Forces Base Shearwater has been integrated with Canadian Forces Base Halifax across the harbour. Certain parts of the operation, strictly air, are being moved to Canadian Forces Base Greenwood.

Savings have been effected essentially by reducing the air operation at Shearwater from a full airport operation, as the hon. member knows, to a heliport operation. This is a very viable operation as it turns out and there are no plans to move it.

In summary, I am advised there are no plans to close the Shearwater site at this time.

Ipperwash

[Art Hanger, Reform, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the solicitor general.

Last night the radical native squatters burned down another building at Camp Ipperwash to continue their reign of terror against the people of Bosanquet. The police and town fire department refused to attend because previous threats of violence were made against them.

For the last two years the town council of Bosanquet has been demanding that the federal government do something to restore law and order. Why is the minister not responding to the requests of the town council? Why does he continue to cater to thugs who thumb their noses at the laws of this country?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, there are established procedures for the federal government to provide assistance to local law enforcement authorities.

It is very simple. If the province of Ontario feels it cannot handle the situation and asks the federal government for assistance, it will give a prompt and effective response to the request. The road of action is very clear. We are not catering to thugs. As I said and I repeat, if the province of Ontario wants federal government assistance then the means of making that request are very much in place.

[Art Hanger, Reform, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I am sick to death of hearing about jurisdiction from the minister. Furthermore, I am saddened by the fact that this minister does not have the guts to protect Canadians-

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

My colleagues, many times we are carried away on the spur of the moment and sometimes we use terms that could in other circumstances be judged to be unparliamentary.

I would ask the hon. member to please refrain from that type of language and I ask him to please put his question.

[Art Hanger, Reform, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Will the solicitor general order the RCMP into the area to assist the OPP in putting an end to this rebellion or else will he go to Bosanquet and explain to the people why he will not act?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I said very clearly that I and the federal government are ready to act. All that is required is for the town council to go to the Ontario government and if the Ontario government says it cannot handle the matter, then we are ready to step in. If my hon. friend does not realize that simple fact, then he is not doing his job.

Access To Information

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister.

Two days ago in this House, the Prime Minister stated, and I quote: "Information can be sought under the Access to Information Act. Any citizen can request information from government departments".

After inviting the official opposition to use the Access to Information Act, how does the Prime Minister explain the fact that, in the past seven months, the Privy Council has systematically turned down every single request submitted by the official opposition under the Access to Information Act?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the Privy Council receives requests, as provided for in the act. Some documents cannot be released under the act, under the regulations. This act was passed by Parliament. Internal communications between ministers, in any government, are not made available to people from outside. That is normal. The Privy Council is, however, instructed to release what must be released under the act.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, again, the government has a perfect score: 17 out of 17 requests for information have been turned down. Not a bad average.

In that case, why does the Prime Minister refuse to release the studies on overlap and duplication, whose existence was confirmed in the secret Industry Canada document? That much is clear.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs gave a more than adequate explanation on this matter a few days ago in this House.

[English]

Agriculture

[Elwin Hermanson, Reform, Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the minister of agriculture.

Canadian farmers have been delivering wheat and barley to the United States, often clearing Canadian customs without a Canadian Wheat Board export permit. On Tuesday, three American trucks hauling barley from Canada were seized by customs as they tried to enter the United States. Previously, these same trucks with the same product were allowed to enter the United States.

Is it legal or is it illegal? Are exports permitted or are they refused? Will the minister tell confused farmers why some trucks are seized and others are not?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food]

Mr. Speaker, the law on this point is very clear with respect to export of wheat and barley from Canada. Obviously, the appropriate paperwork and authorization from the Canadian Wheat Board are required. When that paperwork is not provided, then the export is contrary to the regulations. Those regulations are enforced in due course as the law requires. I trust the Reform Party is not advocating violations of the law.

[Elwin Hermanson, Reform, Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK]

Mr. Speaker, actually the law is not always enforced. In fact, farmers do not know what the law is because there is no standard.

The minister in charge of Canadian customs, the Minister of National Revenue, has received notice that today trucks carrying farmer owned wheat and barley will pull in at Canada customs at the Peace Gardens in Manitoba. I would like to know if the minister has given orders to customs officials to seize the trucks or if he has given orders to let those trucks pass through into the United States?