House of Commons Hansard #239 of the 35th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was sentence.

Topics

Employment Equity ActGovernment Orders

12:50 p.m.

Reform

Randy White Reform Fraser Valley West, BC

It is absolutely accurate. I need not say much more about it. It is extremely frustrating to listen to Liberals on the other side giving their version of the Liberal world out there without a reality check with the rest of the country.

When they refer to "those bad Reformers" it must be a racial thing with them. If they took a good look at who we are and what we represent in our communities-people of all races, colours, creeds, religion and sex-they would be a little disappointed in themselves. They should look in the mirror and wonder what they said in the House of Commons about Reformers. That is probably the lowest we can get in debates like this one. It is fine if they wish to use it but they will not get it from over here.

If the goal system is not a system of quotas, exactly what is it? What is it when we need an investigator to ensure these things are being done? What is it when people can be fined and become a criminal for not living up to a quota established by government? What is that?

It is a frustrating exercise to try to get the debate on a level that the government will understand. Its members are intent on pushing this through. They are intent on having it their way. They are intent on giving average Canadians what they think is best for them even if average Canadians do not think it is.

Employment Equity ActGovernment Orders

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

Andy Scott Liberal Fredericton—York—Sunbury, NB

Mr. Speaker, I will be very brief.

The Reform Party was born of a sense of feeling excluded from the power and the decisions made in the country. If I am wrong in that regard I would certainly want it be pointed out. However, it is my understanding that essentially the Reform Party was born of the notion that the west was feeling left out and did not feel it was part of it.

That sentiment should cause the member to understand exactly the principles behind the bill. The desire to allow all people to feel a part of the system of government and so on is very important. Members representing that party opposite should be the first people to understand that notion, given where they were born.

Employment Equity ActGovernment Orders

12:50 p.m.

Reform

Randy White Reform Fraser Valley West, BC

Mr. Speaker, the member's first presumption is inaccurate. Not only the west wants in. He has it all wrong. The east wants in. Central Canada wants in. The difficulty is that people across the nation are alienated by the traditional tactics of that party.

It was not just politics, for instance, that had us opt out of the MP pension plan. That traditional party at the trough will take the money and run, which alienates people across the country. It has alienated us here. The traditional approach to the Senate of that party and the other party that is gone is wrong. It has alienated most people in the country yet the Prime Minister continually appoints Liberals to the other place.

It is not some Reformer coming out of Abbotsford, Langley or Aldergrove, British Columbia, saying that he is angry. We do a fair bit of travelling ourselves and we hear it across the country.

That presumption the member just made will sink the Liberal ship. It truly will because they are basing the dissatisfaction of people on something they feel is western alienation and that is wrong.

Employment Equity ActGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

York North Ontario

Liberal

Maurizio Bevilacqua LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Human Resources Development

Mr. Speaker, I attentively listened to the hon. member's speech. I was somewhat puzzled by some of the conclusions he drew from the bill we are debating.

I should like to ask a question of the hon. member. Does he believe aboriginal Canadians, women and visible minorities choose to work in low paying jobs, choose alienation from the Canadian economic system and choose their lifestyle?

We have lived for decades without employment equity and thanks to employment equity we are now seeing progress. We are seeing, for example, that women's salaries have gone up. Not enough. They are still not equal to men's salaries. The gender gap still exists.

Since the hon. member seems to have all the answers, I will go back to the original question. Does he think that women choose to be ghettoized in certain sectors? Do visible minorities choose low incomes because they like low income jobs? Or, is it because there are systemic barriers in society that do not allow these individuals to achieve their full potential?

Employment Equity ActGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

Reform

Randy White Reform Fraser Valley West, BC

Mr. Speaker, no one in this country or any other country chooses to make less money than anyone else. Males do not choose that. Females do not choose that.

Everybody in this country has an equal opportunity. It is not necessary to legislate it. It is not necessary to imprison people or to fine people that do not abide by the rules.

It is a lot like any other distribution within society. I stand beside the member from Coquitlam who is female. I do not think she makes less than I do. I do not think she has any particular advantage over me or I have any particular advantage over her. She got where she is today the same way I did; she worked hard for it.

The presumption being made is that any inequity in the country can be legislated. They cannot legislate morality, although I am sure they will try hard enough. They cannot engineer a society. Have they not stopped to think about what has happened in Ontario and why? Is it just because the Ontario government is Conservative and they are not? Is that the reason they put it away?

Employment Equity ActGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Catterall Liberal Ottawa West, ON

Yes, exactly.

Employment Equity ActGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

Reform

Darrel Stinson Reform Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

How many female leaders have they ever had and in how many years?

Employment Equity ActGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

Reform

Randy White Reform Fraser Valley West, BC

It is interesting to note the number of female leaders the Prime Minister's Liberals have had.

Employment Equity ActGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

Reform

Darrel Stinson Reform Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Yes, and after how many years?

Employment Equity ActGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

Reform

Randy White Reform Fraser Valley West, BC

Mr. Speaker, I think this is a government of double standards. A few minutes ago I described what happened with the minister of public works in Atlantic Canada. Talk about double standards. Hiring friends. Does this guy look at employment equity? Only if you know a Liberal and donate to the party. That is employment equity to those people over there.

Employment Equity ActGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

An hon. member

Most people call it patronage.

Employment Equity ActGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

Reform

Randy White Reform Fraser Valley West, BC

This is a party of double standards. Fortunately for Canada we only get their double standards once every few elections and then we throw them out.

Employment Equity ActGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

Liberal

Don Boudria Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the member. He accuses others of having double standards. Yet he is against equity, the purpose of which is to ensure as much as possible that the double standards that exist are rectified.

The member is beginning to understand a little. In another 120 years, to use an expression he used, his party should have it down pat.

The member said in previous remarks as well that he and his colleagues have travelled around the country and know very well what is going on. Is he aware of an article on today's Cornwall Standard Freeholder in which the Grand Chief of the Akwasasne community in my riding talked about the extensive travel of the member across the way: ``Three Reform Party MPs who toured Akwasasne Wednesday to check out smugglers alley should be arrested for trespassing, says the furious Grand Chief Russell Roundpoint''. He identifies the members for Calgary Northeast, Wild Rose and Fraser Valley West.

I wonder if the member is familiar with that and what some people think of his travel plans. Does he not think that when he does those kinds of activities he just bragged about that the least he could do is have the courtesy of informing the local elected officials, and I am thinking here of the Grand Chief of Akwasasne?

There is a perception of insulting the community by the failure of members to do so, and showing disrespect for the minority and also to stereotyping them as all being part of an illegal activity. If he does not want to give that perception, will he at least tell us now that the failure on his part and that of his colleagues to show that kind of respect was wrong and will he apologize to my constituents who live in Akwasasne?

Employment Equity ActGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

Reform

Randy White Reform Fraser Valley West, BC

Mr. Speaker, if this member were doing his job we would not have to travel to his riding.

If that member realizes what is going on down there and the problems they are having and the people we talked about, he would not be in the House whining about it.

He is trying to do exactly what is going on in the House. He is trying to turn a situation where we were looking at some real problems of crime in his riding into a racial issue. That is what is wrong.

We have been talking to the solicitor general about the crime problem in this area and we have been getting very poor answers. There has been no recognition from the government, no real action to curb it. We have been down in the member's riding because we were asked to go. If he does not like the way we travel, that is really just too bad.

I belong to a party that goes out and talks to the people rather than these pompous Liberals who complain that Reformers are in their ridings dealing with issues. They turn a crime issue into a racial issue. That is exactly what is wrong. He has a crime issue in his riding.

They do not have the courage to deal with the crime because they are so sensitive about something they call a racial issue.

Employment Equity ActGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

Barry Campbell Liberal St. Paul's, ON

Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the hon. member for Etobicoke-Lakeshore.

I am pleased to discuss this bill, which seeks to make the workplace fairer for all Canadians, particularly those who have traditionally been disadvantaged.

This is also an opportunity to reply to some very severe criticism made by Reform Party members in terms of this bill's probable impact on the Canadian business world.

I wish they would stay with us long enough to hear some of these responses so they do not come back uneducated. They asked a lot of questions. They want responses. I am going to reply to some of their concerns and it would be great if they were here to hear them.

This criticism has dire consequences, because it seeks to undermine the efforts made to ensure fair treatment of Canadian workers.

Employment Equity ActGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

Reform

Ian McClelland Reform Edmonton Southwest, AB

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I note that it is customary and appropriate that we do not make reference to the absence or the attendance of other hon. members.

Employment Equity ActGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

I thank the hon. member for raising the point. His interpretation is correct. If that assessment is correct I would ask the hon. member for St. Paul's to deal with it. We should all be mindful, as the hon. member for Edmonton Southwest has raised the issue, that we are not at any time to make reference to the absence of members from the Chamber.

Employment Equity ActGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

Barry Campbell Liberal St. Paul's, ON

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am pleased to speak to this bill and to have the attention of all members of Parliament.

So, I want to take a few minutes to discuss the provisions of this bill and explain how they will not only benefit disadvantaged people in the workplace, but also employers.

This legislation reflects two basic values which Canadians really care about: fairness and equality. It also takes into account the need to promote business development, in order to create jobs and opportunities which will ensure a good future for all Canadians, whoever they are and whatever their situation.

This bill seeks to achieve a critical balance between competitiveness and compassion which is so vital for assuring opportunities for Canadians.

While we in government are seeking to enhance fairness and opportunities for Canadians, some opposition members either do not see the need for such measures or feel that no improvements are required to existing legislation. In my opinion they simply do not get it.

They have never had the experience. They do not understand what it is to apply for a job, to have all of the qualifications and to somehow suspect that their colour, their gender, their disability or their orientation precludes them from a fair chance at that job.

I do not necessarily ascribe malevolence to interviewers or people who do the hiring. It is human nature. We have all felt it ourselves. When we face candidates before us we tend to like those who are just like us better than we like everybody else. We feel more comfortable. We feel more at home. We can see ourselves working with them.

We have only to look at the membership of the third party to see that they have the same problem and perhaps need a plan to deal with it within their own ranks.

An interesting study was done recently with respect to hiring. Employers were asked to consider applicants on the basis of their applications only. There were no personal interviews. It was interesting to see employers hire people without regard to colour, gender or disability and only find out later their colour, gender or disability and then say: "I do not care. I will make whatever arrangements are necessary. Whether it is a ramp for a wheelchair, or whatever it is, I want that candidate".

When faced with a person in front of them, by human nature or otherwise, the tendency is, after years and years of good intentions, for employers not to move fast enough. They need some assistance in seeing a way through to doing what they know is in the interests of their businesses which is to have a diversified workforce.

Much progress has been made under current employment legislation and the current act but much more remains to be done. Women are still concentrated in lower paid clerical, sales and service jobs. Maybe that is the place where some hon. members want to see them stay but that is not where this member or this party wishes to them stay.

In the case of aboriginal people, the percentage in the workforce under the act currently is 1.4 per cent compared to 3 per cent in the Canadian population. It is roughly the case with respect to persons with disabilities. They are roughly 6.5 per cent of the overall population but a far lower percentage in the workforce. That is wrong. It denies Canadian businesses the work and dedication of devoted and capable people who can be accommodated and should be received and welcomed as should people who are otherwise among the designated groups.

However, those people still find themselves on the bottom rung of the economic and social ladder. It is not just their problem, which is I what I suspect hon. members from the third party think. It is a problem for all of us since restricting the participation of such individuals in the economic life of our country damages the competitiveness of Canadian businesses. Businesses themselves understand that. They endorse many of these proposals. They have been doing a number of things on their own. They have been working with us to develop programs to give effect to the guiding principles encompassed in this legislation. It is good for business and it is good for Canada.

Those businesses realize that recruiting, promoting and retaining people who are representative of the Canadian population helps them provide better and more responsive service since diverse experience and perspectives are a bonus not a burden.

It is useful to note that many business representatives, not usually identified as left wing radicals, appeared before the standing committee in support of the bill. They told us the bill would help them develop a more diverse workforce and give them a competitive edge over less diversified competitors. Diversification in business just is not about one's product line. It is about one's employees as well.

Contrary to the accusations of some members, this bill is not some piece of wild-eyed radicalism, totally divorced from the realities of economic life and experience. Rather, it is a moderate document which seeks to promote equal opportunity in the workplace without imposing an onerous regulatory environment on business which we recognize is already hard pressed in an increasingly global, competitive marketplace.

For instance, while the act seeks to encourage employers to address under-representation by members of designated groups, it does not require them to hire unqualified people, to create new positions, to create undue hardship or to contradict the merit principle. What we are anxious to see is people hired on their merits regardless of their gender, their colour and other characteristics which have gotten in the way of people with equal merit getting an equal opportunity.

The impact of the bill will be limited since it will only involve those public and private sector organizations and enterprises covered by the Canada Labour Code; about 10 per cent of the workforce. It does not impose quotas or some draconian regime directed from Ottawa as some have suggested. Rather it seeks to help organizations and enterprises develop their own targets for themselves which will allow them to develop a more representative workforce.

To do this, the act will rely on self-identification by employees rather than forcing people to be singled out. There is every indication that such a system should be successful since employees have shown themselves increasingly willing to identify themselves for the purpose of this since the first act was passed in 1986.

In addition, enforcement of the act will not be a reign of terror as conjured up by members of the third party. There is no intention of hounding companies which, not yet fully in compliance with the targets they set, are sincerely trying to reach their goals. Our approach in such situations will be of helping, not harassing. We hope to encourage co-management of this program within enterprises. This means getting workers and management to work together in partnership to ensure the success of the program. While management will bear responsibility since it has the ultimate say in how it manages its affairs, there will be considerable opportunity for both sides to work together on the setting of targets, timetables and implementation strategies.

Success in the area of labour-management co-operation could well prove so rewarding that both parties might then decide to extend this collaboration to other areas of common concern, which would in turn benefit the enterprise as a whole.

Canadians are justly proud of the progress they have made in ensuring fairness and equal opportunity. While the Employment Equity Act of 1986 has led to a number of successes, much remains to be done. We in this party will not cease in our efforts to improve upon what we have done in the past. History does not stop. We gain

new experiences every day and we see ways in which we can implement our policies more effectively as time goes on.

We realize though that progress must not hinder the success of Canadian business, which is so vital for creating jobs and opportunities Canadians need. This act seeks to provide this vital balance and contains provisions that will benefit not only employees, particularly those traditionally disadvantaged, but employers as well. As such, it represents a win-win situation where everyone gains.

For this reason I will be supporting this legislation before the House and would encourage all members to do so.

Employment Equity ActGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

Before giving the floor to the hon. member for Lévis, I simply wish to remind the House that the period for questions and comments lasts five minutes.

Employment Equity ActGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

Bloc

Antoine Dubé Bloc Lévis, QC

Mr. Speaker, first, I want to say that the official opposition supports the legislation, even though we feel it does not go far enough-

Employment Equity ActGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

An hon. member

Oh, oh.

Employment Equity ActGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

Bloc

Antoine Dubé Bloc Lévis, QC

-in spite of the protests made by the third party. At the same time, a member of that party alluded earlier to the government's double standards. In a sense I agree with him, but obviously not for the same reasons.

There are the following points. First, the government introduces legislation like this one, which is in general very praiseworthy and, at the same time, it passes other legislation, including one piece of legislation last year, suspending job security in the public service for three years. Administratively, they will cut 45,000 jobs over this period, and yet, when it comes to employment equity for women, for example, in the public service, it seems to me that a government should first set the example itself, before it asks business to do something.

It should be beyond reproach in this regard. In fact, we can see, and all the statistics indicate, that no progress has been made in the federal public service; nothing has changed. Pay equity is in the order of 72 per cent. Even for jobs requiring the same qualifications, women were paid less than men. Women are in lower paying jobs, because these jobs are lower down the ladder.

With the cuts and the legislation ending job security, there was the phenomenon of voluntary departures, buy-outs. In cutting other positions, a discretionary formula was used, by whom, by the managers of the various government services. The vast majority of the positions involved are held by men, very few by women.

Can we call this a fair practice? This is what I mean when I talk about a double standard, it may be alright for the third party to support it. It is all very well to make speeches in the House, to pass fine laws, but I know, coming from Quebec, that some people expected a lot from the official languages act, for example, in promoting employment equity for francophones, those from Quebec, and even those from outside Quebec, and still nothing has happened.

Last year, a minister was obliged to issue directives to enforce a 20-year old law, and nothing has improved.

We will support this bill, but I have a question for the hon. member. In his opinion, since he is closer to the minister, are there any indications of a reversal of the double standard trend, that is, the trend of passing fine laws, but changing nothing? On the contrary, revisionist measures have been taken leading to regression and a return to the past by, for example, suspending job security in the public service.

What is preventing the government from passing antiscab legislation?

So, this is my question to the hon. member, who seems to have progressive ideas. I want him to reassure me as to the value of what he is saying, in terms of its impact on the government and on cabinet.

Employment Equity ActGovernment Orders

1:20 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

I remind the hon. member for St. Paul's that while he indicated to the Chair he would be splitting his time, if he wants to give his colleague the opportunity to conclude her intervention before the end of government orders his response should be brief.

Employment Equity ActGovernment Orders

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

Barry Campbell Liberal St. Paul's, ON

Mr. Speaker, thank you. I do want to allow my colleague that opportunity.

I thank the hon. member for his intervention and for reminding the House that the official opposition does support the bill. We appreciate that support. Obviously they recognize, as we do, that there are improvements that can be made in the way in which we do business in this country.

He raises some good points to the effect that the public service should be mindful of the laudable merits of this statute as it begins to apply to them.

Employment Equity ActGovernment Orders

1:20 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

I thank the hon. member for his co-operation and I regret the period of question or comment is terminated.