Debates of Nov. 30th, 1995

Constitutional Amendments Act

[Elwin Hermanson, Reform, Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the House for the opportunity to speak to Bill C-110.

This is a serious time in the history of our country. I see all the empty chairs across from me. I cannot speak to members who are not here, but you would think there would be more than two Liberal members in the House.

[John Harvard, Liberal, Winnipeg—St. James, MB]

Respect the rules.

[The Speaker]

I would ask all hon. members to refrain from mentioning whether the House is full or empty, who is here and who is not. There are traditions.

[Elwin Hermanson, Reform, Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I know that many Canadians are watching as we debate Bill C-110 which would give veto power over constitutional change to four regions in Canada, one region being the region I am from, western Canada, four provinces with a population of over eight million.

I have been requesting feedback from the province of Saskatchewan. Early indications are that there is absolute rejection of the proposal put forward by the government in Bill C-110 and also in the motion we debated yesterday, the motion on recognizing the distinct society as a special status for the province of Quebec.

I would hope and I would plead with this government that it would reverse its direction, reverse its position and walk away from the failures of the past, the closed door approach, and embark on a new course of action, an open and an honest approach with clear proposals that are made open to the public, that they can access those proposals and that they can also express their opinion in quantifiable ways.

I want to talk about past performance. When we have gone down this road before what has happened? We have two classic examples, the Meech Lake accord and the Charlottetown accord.

I grant that with the Charlottetown accord there was a referendum and, in fact, Canadians were able to express their opinions. From one end of the country to the other they said no to the Charlottetown accord. They said no in the province of Quebec, but they also said no in the province of Saskatchewan, the province of Alberta, the province of British Columbia and even the province of Nova Scotia.

How do we come up with these concoctions, particularly the Meech Lake accord and the Charlottetown accord? How did we develop something that was rejected so adamantly by Canadians?

It started out with 11 people behind closed doors. If you go back to the Meech Lake accord, it was 10 premiers and the prime minister. It was Prime Minister Mulroney, the Conservative prime minister. They got behind closed doors and began a wheeling and dealing session. We are opening the opportunity for another wheeling and dealing session with Bill C-110.

What happens when they start wheeling and dealing behind closed doors? I will tell you what happened in the province of Saskatchewan. Premier Devine sat at the table and said: "I will go along with this Meech Lake accord idea, but I want something for it". What did he ask for? He got a billion dollars for the agricultural industry. It was a difficult time for agriculture, so he said: "I will sell my soul for a billion dollars".

I spoke shortly after that decision with an aide of one of his MLAs. This was during the time of the GST debate when the federal government was trying to implement the GST. I said to this member's aide: "Why did our provincial government agree to lend support? Why are we going on with the GST and why are we going along with the Meech Lake accord concept?" Very honestly this assistant said: "You have to do something to get a billion dollars".

We have paid billions of dollars in GST to get that billion dollars. As a province we signed on to the Meech Lake accord even though the people of Saskatchewan opposed it.

Closed door negotiations without including the Canadian public is wrong. More than that it is dangerous. It very costly. It detracts from the reputation of politicians. It gives us a bad name.

We got our billion dollars. Newfoundland got Hibernia. Joe Ghiz in Prince Edward Island got the fixed link. Mr. Bourassa thought he was going to get a special deal for the province of Quebec. We all remember there was a big news story when his staffers got caught talking on a cell phone. They were debating whether or not he had sold out too cheaply, whether he gave up too much. In this cell phone conversation that was recorded some of his assistants felt that Mr. Bourassa had settled for too little.

That tells us they were wheeling and dealing behind closed doors. They were wheeling and dealing with our future. It is wrong. It is dangerous. It is sad that this government is embarking on the exact same course with the implementation of Bill C-110. It needs to be defeated. It will not be accepted by the Canadian people if they have any say in whether it is a success or not.

The same thing was going on in British Columbia. The wonderful thing about modern technology is that some of these politicians get caught. They get tripped up. One of the B.C. cabinet ministers, Moe Sihota, was in the interior of B.C. He did not realize there was a reporter or a camera there or he was not thinking. He talked about how B.C. had got the best of the deal at other provinces' expense.

There was outrage in the province of Quebec. They realized there was wheeling and dealing behind closed doors. There are winners and losers. The winners are not the people. The winners are the politicians who are trying to get re-elected by making these deals behind closed doors. It is shameful and it is disgusting.

What happened with the province of Alberta? Mr. Getty wanted something but it has not lasted. He got the election of a senator. We have elected one senator to the other place and that was through wheeling and dealing with the Meech Lake and Charlottetown accords. This one happened to be in relationship to the Charlottetown accord. That was his plum and it did not even last. He got one senator elected and after that we just slipped back into the old patronage system where friends of prime ministers are appointed to the other place. It was not a very valuable plum that the premier of Alberta received from his wheeling and dealing behind closed doors.

The previous prime minister, Mr. Mulroney, has been in the news a great deal lately. He was involved in this wheeling and dealing. How did he describe this whole process? He described it as the rolling of the dice. Do you remember that, Mr. Speaker? You remember how incensed Canadians were. It began the demise of the former prime minister as Canadians began to realize these people were not looking out for the best interests of Canadians. They were out to protect their own hides and wheel and deal and see what they could get. They were gambling with our future. It was repulsive to Canadians then and I assure the House, as sure as I am standing here, it is repulsive to Canadians today.

If we give the regions a constitutional veto through their governments alone and bypass the people, there will be wheeling and dealing again. As sure as I am standing here there will be closed door negotiations. They will be sitting in a hotel room somewhere deciding who gets how many senators. They will deciding what distinct society means. They will be deciding what special privileges this confers on the province of Quebec. They will be deciding what plums the province of Ontario gets, if they go back to this wrongful way of deciding our country's future.

It is time for a new direction. It is time to bypass governments and their whips. It can be said these 11 people represent the electorate because they were voted in. I have been here long enough to know that the way the electorate are represented in this House is by way of the traditional party whips who whip their members into voting for legislation. I have been told and I believe that the same thing happens in our provincial legislatures.

In fact you have given power to eleven people without giving true accountability to the public if you allow the provincial governments to have a veto, bypassing the people and not allowing them to speak their minds through a referendum. In most cases Canadians will reject the approach of determining our country's future behind closed doors.

I conclude by expressing how important this is. We are not talking about fishing violations. We are not talking about registering a pesticide. We are talking about the future of our country. We are talking about the operations manual for the future of our country. This will have an impact on my three children. It will have an impact on our grandchildren. It will impact future generations, who will ask how eleven people managed to wheel and deal their future away and no one rose to speak against it.

I am standing against this process. It is wrong. It is harmful to Canada. It is harmful to our reputation as a democracy. It cannot go on. It has to stop. Canadians keep telling us to stop. When will the government listen and abide by the wishes of the people?

[John Harvard, Liberal, Winnipeg—St. James, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I have to rise again because I cannot believe what I am hearing from the other side of the House.

Bill C-110 has to do with lending the federal veto; it has nothing to do with enabling a constitutional initiative. This has nothing to do with a province wanting to change the Constitution. This is simply a matter of a veto, providing it through federal legislation, offering it to the four regions of the country.

I do not think a service is provided to the Canadian people when this kind of disinformation is disseminated across the country by the Reform Party.

Let us get this straight: this piece of legislation does not change the Constitution one iota. This is a narrow initiative having to do with the veto, having to do with offering the federal veto to the four regions. It is as simple as that. It is unjust, it is wrong, and it certainly is spreading disinformation to speak otherwise.

[Elwin Hermanson, Reform, Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK]

Mr. Speaker, in responding to the hon. member for Winnipeg St. James let me say that we are not talking about a change to the Constitution, but about a new constitutional procedure that could be implemented under the seven and fifty rule.

We are talking about using the legislatures of the provinces twice to try to implement something behind closed doors, rather than going to the Canadian people to ask them directly what their opinion is and then having that ratified by the seven and fifty formula, seven provinces with fifty per cent of the population agreeing to the constitutional change.

This is a very dangerous bill. It is trying to pit province against province. It is trying to find out who will put forward the best deal. B.C. and Manitoba in the western provinces, or Nova Scotia and Newfoundland in the Atlantic provinces, can somehow concoct a deal with the federal government, with the support of Ontario and Quebec, to change our Constitution without going to the Canadian public. Once that is done, the second step is much easier, which is getting seven provinces with fifty per cent of the population to agree to the constitutional change. It is sneaky, it is crafty, and it is wrong. It should be stopped.

[Derek Wells, Liberal, South Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the House today to speak on Bill C-110, an act respecting constitutional amendments. I applaud the Minister of Justice for bringing forth such legislation at a time when our country is looking to its politicians for direction. I feel that this legislation is an important first step toward involving the provinces more directly in the introduction of constitutional amendments that directly affect their respective citizens.

I was in Verdun on the Tuesday before the referendum and I heard the Prime Minister's commitments to Quebecers and to Canadians. I was in Montreal on the Friday for the incredible unity rally with a large delegation from my South Shore riding and with some of my family. I experienced the incredible goodwill and outpouring of affection for Quebec and of course for Canada that occurred in Montreal. There were 150,000 of us, but we represented many more.

Those of us who were there and the many others we represented came away from Montreal with a renewed commitment to Canada and a greater understanding of what this country is all about. We also recognized that there would have to be changes in the federation of Canada, not only a recognition but a will to see that this would be done. We left Montreal fearful for Canada but confident and recognizing that after the vote the promised changes would have to be implemented.

After an agonizing Monday evening we all woke up on Tuesday morning realizing that we had almost lost our country, almost lost Canada. We also woke up with a renewed will to do what had to be done to ensure that Canada was not destroyed. There was a recognition that Quebecers voted for change but change within Canada.

This bill and the distinct society motion are both a fulfilment of the Prime Minister's commitment made in Verdun and a beginning of the change Quebec voted for, which Canadians support.

In a federation like Canada there is a delicate balance of power between the provinces and the federal government. Throughout our country's history it has not been easy to maintain this balance and appease the entire country. Let us face it, Canada is both the most decentralized country in the world and the largest. People want to maintain their own identity associated with their respective province. Yet many of our most fundamental services are centralized in the federal government.

I feel very close to my home province of Nova Scotia and to Newfoundland, my province of birth. Yet I am most certainly a federalist. It is important to maintain certain services at a national level so that this diverse country remains the same in some ways and creates a common bond among all Canadians.

I believe this bill is very important to Canada as a federation. It is not easy for any federal government to accommodate all facets of its society. This bill is a step toward hearing the voices of the provinces, especially in cases where amendments put forth by the government could be detrimental to a particular region of the country.

As I said previously, Canada's federation is a balancing act. The desires of all provinces must be taken into consideration and given their due weight in the entire scheme of things. The way in which the veto power will work I am sure was not an easy thing to determine. However, the formula that has been decided upon is in my view satisfactory. This particular formula is a replica of the formula contained in the Victoria charter, which has been discussed in constitutional circles for decades. Even as recently as 1991 this formula was recommended for adoption.

The provinces will now be doubly protected in constitutional matters that directly affect them. This, in conjunction with the Prime Minister's motion on distinct society, is part of what Quebec has been asking for. I believe the other provinces will be pleased to have the same power to veto.

The balancing act I have mentioned is not only between the federal government and the provinces, it is also among the provinces. Provinces, like people, feel it is paramount to maintain equality with their counterparts and receive equal treatment. That is why I am pleased this bill will make regions within Canada equal to all other regions. Most important, the veto will involve all ten provinces, not just one. The balance has been maintained.

Coming from a province the size of Nova Scotia, I am pleased that the veto has been extended to all of the regions. It will serve as an added protection to all provinces, especially for smaller provinces, as in Atlantic Canada. The fact that the provinces included in the regions are either alone or grouped together with provinces with similar demographics makes the bill both fair and equitable.

The new veto is especially important to Quebec. Quebecers should have the right to halt a constitutional amendment that could endanger the preservation of their distinct culture, language, and civil law. It is unfortunate, however, that the Bloc Quebecois will not accept this bill as a first step toward what should be our common goals. The Bloc will do everything in its power to discredit this type of action, although any other action, be it constitutional amendment or whatever, would prove to them to be unacceptable.

The agenda of the official opposition is to have Quebec separate from Canada. Hon. members opposite should accept reality and come to the realization that Quebecers voted to stay within Canada. We on the government side have recognized this fact and are dealing with it. This bill is a first step toward improving our country and making some necessary changes.

While the Bloc will argue that this bill does not go far enough, the Reform Party will argue that it goes too far. The Reform Party will agree to change only if that change means nothing. There are some members of Parliament who would like to separate Quebec from Canada. There are other members of Parliament who would like to separate Canada from Quebec. These people will never be satisfied.

The Constitution is up for review before April 1997. It will be counterproductive to have constitutional talks now rather than waiting for the review to take place so that we know if and where changes are needed. This bill, as I have said, is the first step toward fixing what needs to be fixed in Canada. I believe it will be quite productive to deal with one issue at a time, as the Prime Minister is presently doing.

Quebecers who voted in the referendum want Parliament to prove we are listening to them. Canadians who wished they could have been at the rally in Montreal want Parliament to prove we are listening to them. Canadians want Parliament to make sure we do not lose sight of the forest for the trees.

I hope those Canadians who invested their hearts in the rally in Montreal will see that Parliament is working hard to make a difference for the better. I hope Quebecers and all Canadians will encourage their members of Parliament, regardless of their party affiliations, to vote for this progressive course of action.

This bill is central to the accommodation of the diverse cultures that are evident in Canada's four regions.

[Andy Mitchell, Liberal, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure today to speak in favour of the actions being undertaken by our government to further the process of ensuring a united Canada. Our actions will recognize the reality of Quebec as a distinct society, increase veto power, and move to eliminate duplication in the area of training.

Prior to the victory for national unity in the recent referendum in Quebec, Canadians from all provinces told us they wanted Quebec to stay in Canada. They told us they understood Quebec's frustration, understood that we must make changes to address the needs of our fellow Canadians in Quebec. They told us they recognize the depth of the emotion and they understand its source.

We promised Quebec and the rest of Canada we would deliver change to them. We promised them this was not just lip service, but an actual desire, willingness and commitment to achieve change for lasting unity in Canada.

I contrast that to the actions of the third party, whose solution to this problem is to pit region against region, one part of Canada against another part of Canada, and whose view of this nation is one in which national standards are gutted so that the right become richer and the poor are abandoned.

We in the Liberal Party believe in Canada, a Canada that includes our historic First Nations, the founding European people, both French and English, and the many who have come since who have added to the diversity of this great country.

We believe in a Canada in which its citizens collectively have accepted a social responsibility to maintain a social safety net, including health care, education, security for seniors and income support for the unemployed. Most of all, we believe in a Canada built on compassion and inclusion, not the hate and the division preached by some in this country.

Part of the action we are undertaking addresses one of the issues of foremost importance to Quebec. It recognizes that Quebec is a distinct society within Canada. It recognizes those items that make Quebec distinct: a French speaking majority, a unique culture, and a tradition of civil law. These distinctions are not new. They do not

exist at the expense of other parts of the country. It is time that Canada officially recognized this reality.

Our initiative to recognize Quebec's distinct society within Canada is part of our overall commitment to change. That includes the concepts in Bill C-110 which gives all of the regions of Canada, including Quebec, a veto in matters of constitutional change.

As a result of this bill, we will require the consent of Quebec, Ontario and the Atlantic and western regions before any constitutional amendments will be accepted by the Parliament of Canada. This will ensure that all provinces will be active participants in any evolution of the Canadian Constitution. It will protect the regions of Canada against amendments that could potentially diminish their powers, rights and privileges.

We are also introducing measures to give the provinces jurisdiction over training to eliminate program overlap and to give all provinces the flexibility they need to deliver training effectively. These are strong first steps toward refining our relationship with Quebec and building a stronger Canada. These are part of our commitment to Canada and to all Canadians.

We live in the greatest country in the world. All members and our constituents, we are Canada. What we do in the House affects all Canadians. Our goal is to preserve all that is great about Canada and to change that which needs to be changed. These are the reasons we will achieve lasting unity in this country. By working together, by listening to each other, by honouring our commitment to change, we demonstrate our commitment to each other and to this country. That will be our legacy to future generations of Canadians.

I think we are on the right track. Members of the third party think we have gone too far. Members of the official opposition think we have not gone far enough. I believe both of these parties have not thought this through. They are fighting to gain control for their own self-serving purposes while our government is fighting for Canadians and for Canada. That is what is important now. Our actions speak louder than their words.

Several weeks ago I was on a bus that came from my riding of Parry Sound-Muskoka. It was filled with constituents who wanted to be at the giant national unity rally in Montreal to show Quebecers they were committed to a united Canada and to making change so that Canada works better for all of its citizens.

As parliamentarians, we are now charged with the responsibility and the privilege of following through with our promises, of living up to the faith and the trust that Quebecers and Canadians placed in our hands following the referendum. We will not let our country down. We will proceed logically and practically to build on Canada's strength to work for conciliation and to better the lives of all our citizens.

These measures are both important and meaningful. What is more significant, they are achievable in the short term. We can simply recognize the reality that Quebec is a distinct society, that all regions of Canada want to have a say in constitutional change and we are doing that quickly and expeditiously.

The action can later be entrenched in our Constitution if we so desire, providing Quebec indicates its desire to do so. Granted, if the Leader of the Opposition becomes the next premier of Quebec he has already indicated that he certainly does not want Quebec's distinctiveness to be entered into the Constitution.

The member for Lac-Saint-Jean talks from both sides of his mouth, as they say. He demands change for Quebec but when it is offered, even before the details are known, he rejects not the proposal but the very fact that it is offered. He does not appear to care about trying to make Quebec a better place in which to live. He certainly does not care about Canada as he constantly ignores the oath he took when he came to this place as he tries to destroy this country. He cares only for power and his place in the sun.

I believe in my country. I believe in a united Canada from coast to coast to coast. As proud Canadians, we will not soon forget the overwhelming show of support we saw for national unity across Canada leading up to the referendum in Quebec. We will not forget that historic moment on October 30 when Quebecers voted to remain in Canada.

I am very pleased to add my support to my government's pledge for lasting national unity. I am pleased we will achieve our goals quickly and that we will soon return to our task of building an economy in which jobs and growth occur.

I pledge my continued support for this great country, Canada. All of us in this place are here for what will be a blink in Canada's history. In that short time I have a sacred duty and an obligation to my children and my children's children not to let the forces attempting to destroy this country succeed. The people of Canada will stand united and the Government of Canada will ensure that together we remain one strong nation both proud and free.

[Nic Leblanc, Bloc, Longueuil, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member criticized our leader for saying he did not agree with the distinct society resolution proposed by the government and did not agree either with the veto proposal.

I think the hon. member failed to realize that the distinct society proposal does not give Quebec any power, any opportunity to be distinct.

In fact, what we want is not a piece of paper that offers meaningless recognition of the distinct society concept. Our leader reminded the Prime Minister of this yesterday. So I think the hon. member did not quite grasp the purport of this offer.

First of all, it is not an offer that will be entrenched in the Constitution, and by the way, at the same time they are saying we have a veto. Today, they announced Quebec had a veto. However, they are giving the same veto to the other regions as well. If you give a veto to everyone, it is no longer a veto. It becomes meaningless, because the other regions could use their veto to block Quebec's legitimate demands.

I think this is a trap. They would have Quebecers believe that the government is responding to their aspirations by offering a veto and recognition as a distinct society. I hardly think Quebecers will fall for that.

I have this question for the hon. member. Did he realize what was involved or was his speech prepared by the Prime Minister's Privy Council Office or would he just have Quebecers believe they are not smart enough to understand what the government is offering us today?

[Andy Mitchell, Liberal, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Mr. Speaker, with all due respect to the hon. member, I will answer very plainly.

If the Bloc Quebecois really believes that Quebec is a distinct society, if it really believes that Quebec should have a veto, if it really believes in the decentralization and the turning over of manpower training to the provinces, then Bloc members can prove it very simply and very clearly: vote for the resolution, vote for Bill C-110 and do what they say.

When the hon. member talks as he just has, all he is doing is listing a series of excuses of why Bloc members will not do what they said all along they wanted to have happen. It is all political double-talk. If they want Quebec to be a distinct society, then they should vote for the resolution. If they want Quebec to have a veto, then they should vote for Bill C-110. If you want control over manpower training, then vote for Mr. Axworthy's reforms when he brings those forward. It is fairly straightforward.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

Colleagues, I understand the member for Parry Sound-Muskoka has concluded his remarks. I will simply remind the House in two areas. In the one instance all interventions must be made through the Chair and not directly across the floor from one member to the other, and members should be referred to either by their riding or their portfolio.

[Jack Ramsay, Reform, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I listened with interest to the comments made by my hon. colleague from Parry Sound-Muskoka.

When we look at Bill C-110 we are looking at nothing new. We have looked at this kind of approach to the unity question in Canada for the last number of years and it is a failure. If anyone questions the failure of this kind of approach as contained within Bill C-110, all we have to do is look across the floor every question period and see the evidence of that failure which sits 53 strong in this House. For years and years and years we have heard this same kind of approach and it has failed.

One of the most discouraging aspects about this bill is the process. At least two premiers have expressed vehement opposition to it. If the hon. member for Parry Sound-Muskoka believes it is just us Reformers who are trying to split factions and have factions fight against factions, let me quote from the front page of the Globe and Mail . Mr. Roger Gibbins, a political scientist at the University of Calgary, says: This is little short of a constitutional coup d'état by the Prime Minister''. Mr. Philip Resnick, a political scientist at the University of British Columbia, states:The Prime Minister hasn't just got a Quebec crisis on his hands, he may also have an incipient revolt of the western provinces on his hands''.

I would ask the hon. member to consider those comments. We are getting all sorts of comments like that from our western colleagues. Surely there must have been some lessons learned from the Charlottetown accord and the Meech Lake accord. Surely that top down approach in process alone spells doom and failure in terms of acceptance by the people of this country, particularly in the area where I am from.

I ask my hon. colleague if he would respectfully address those areas that we have to deal with in dealing with this bill.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

I would simply ask the hon. member for Parry Sound-Muskoka for his co-operation for a brief response. When members are splitting their time, the time of five minutes for debate is very short. Therefore the questions must be put succinctly and we must hope that the responses are brief also.

[Andy Mitchell, Liberal, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I will be brief but I will not be able to address everything the member raised.

This is a time in Canada when we need to put the nation first. It is possible to be regionalistic in an approach. It is possible to put the interests of our region first. However it is not appropriate in this case. In this case Canada has to come first. Canadians have to come first. That is what we ought to do.

This plan will work. These measures will work. There is a time when it might need to be constitutionalized, but we are not talking about the Constitution today. We do not want to get into a long

series of where we were in the late 1980s and the 1990s. We have an economy to deal with. We have jobs to create. Let us get this done. Let us do it quickly and do it in the interest of Canada.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Verchères, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I welcome the opportunity today to speak to Bill C-110 which deals with the regional veto.

First, we can say that this year, which is now drawing to a close, was the year of the referendum on the future of Quebec. In fact, on October 30, nearly 94 per cent of registered voters exercised their right to vote. It was an exemplary and laudable exercise in democracy. In this referendum, 50.6 per cent of the population of Quebec said no to the sovereignty and partnership proposal of the Quebec government.

We accept the outcome, although the margin was very narrow, because we always said, unlike Jean Chrétien, that we would abide by the verdict-

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

I simply want to remind the House that members should always be referred to by their riding or their portfolio. In this case, the Prime Minister.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Verchères, QC]

I stand corrected.

Unlike the Prime Minister, we always said we would abide by the decision of Quebecers.

Democracy is the very foundation of the sovereignist movement, which will be guided in the pursuit of its ideal by a respect for democratic values and principles, while abiding by the democratic decision made by the people of Quebec. Meanwhile, it behooves us to keep calm and pull together after this vote of historic importance, until our next rendezvous with history.

However, the extremely close results of the referendum should give the No side something to think about. The ball is now in the federalist court. They will have to move with those winds of change they claimed to feel, all of a sudden, during the latter part of the campaign when the Yes side was ahead. But they must realize that after this referendum, Quebecers will no longer be satisfied with merely cosmetic changes to outmoded and meaningless formulas or with vague and inconsistent administrative and legislative reforms.

The vote on October 30 clearly indicated the desire of Quebecers to be recognized for what they are, a people. To provide that recognition within the Canadian federal system, major constitutional changes will be necessary.

The question was, would the federal government be willing to make those changes and would it be supported by the provinces and the rest of Canada?

The howls of protest that went up in English Canada indicated it would probably never respond to the legitimate aspirations of Quebecers. As for the Prime Minister, considering his past record, he seems clearly incapable of keeping his promises.

Promises for change were hastily drafted by the federalist camp during the last days of the referendum campaign. These promises were not made in a flurry of enthusiasm; quite the contrary, they were motivated by fear that the yes side would win.

Last Monday, we saw the apotheosis of a panic operation that started during the last weeks of the referendum campaign. As soon as the Leader of the Opposition came on the scene to lead the yes side, the federalist forces realized there was a real possibility they would be defeated.

To prevent this from happening, the Prime Minister, in a last ditch effort, promised Quebecers that changes would be made in Canadian federalism if the no side won. It was the threat of defeat, nothing else, that forced the federal government to promise what it cannot deliver. That is obvious if we consider, in chronological order, the statements made by Prime Minister.

Given the speech made in early October in the Maritimes, in which he ridiculed the idea of enshrining Quebec's distinct nature in the Constitution, and given his stubborn opposition, until October 24, to any change in the federal structure, we can only conclude that the Prime Minister has an aversion to the issue of Quebec. In fact, the promises for change he made in the last week of the referendum campaign were vague, and no specific proposal was put forward at the time.

Remember what the Prime Minister said, on the evening of October 30: "For the second time in 15 years, we just went through a difficult and emotional period. We must now contemplate innovative solutions, so as to never again go through such an existential crisis". Let us not forget that, even at the very end of the referendum campaign, the federal government did not have any concrete and innovative constitutional proposal to make to Quebecers. The government knew that it had to make some kind of an offer, but that was it.

The very narrow no side victory forced federalists to quickly make proposals to Quebec. The federal government hastily set up a cabinet committee to make such proposals. However, from the moment it was set up, it was clear that this was a phoney committee, with no real mandate and no real power. The same goes for the Quebec Liberal Party, which adopted a constitutional position, if you can call it that, only last weekend. Everything was done on the spur of the moment by people who are still unable to listen to and agree with the will of Quebecers.

The deafness of the federalist leaders became even more apparent on Monday, with the federal government's proposals. These proposals deal with three specific issues: manpower training, Quebec's distinct nature, and the granting of a regional veto. In the Prime Minister's mind, these proposals give concrete expression

to commitments made during the referendum campaign. But what do these proposals really mean? Nothing, absolutely nothing, because they will be entirely dependent on the mood of the government in office, since none of the proposals will be enshrined in the Canadian Constitution.

At best, these proposals will become trivial motions that are not binding on anyone. This is what the Liberal government opposite is intending for the concept of a distinct society. At most, they will be tabled and passed in the House like ordinary legislation, which may be revoked at any time by this government or by some future government. This is where the government wants to relegate manpower training and the right of veto.

What is really apparent in the November 27 proposals is the irreconcilability of Quebec's traditional claims with English Canada's position. We can see, in reading Bill C-110, that never before has the granting of a veto been so devoid of value. Let us be honest, this veto, which is apparently being offered to Quebecers is simply on loan, so long as Quebec does what the federal government wants.

To illustrate this, we have only to look at the present position of our colleagues in the Reform Party on the veto for the regions and recognition of Quebec as a distinct society. Reformers clearly see Quebec as just another province and therefore will never accept the concept of a distinct society, even if it were to mean nothing-which in fact it does. Obviously, the same applies to the veto for the regions, which to them means giving a sovereignist government a veto over Canada's future, at least that is what they claim.

The Leader of the Reform Party has already indicated he would revoke the veto of Quebec, Ontario and the other regions in Canada if he ever came to power. In saying so he reveals ever so clearly, even before it is enacted, the ridiculousness of the Prime Minister's proposal. Given that the veto proposed for Quebec would be granted only through ordinary legislation, the Reform Party, once in power, could simply repeal or amend it.

Paradoxically, the mechanisms that are supposed to prevent amendments to the Canadian Constitution without the consent of Quebec could be dropped just like that. In fact, since the veto powers of Quebec and the other Canadian regions are not entrenched in the Canadian Constitution, it will always be possible for a political party like the Reform Party, for instance, to deprive Quebec of its veto.

The same applies to the distinct society resolution. Here again, a future Reform Party government would have no compunction about revoking this simple resolution, thus abolishing a meaningless concept.

The bill before us today illustrates the authoritarian and paternalistic approach of the Canadian government, which is refusing to safeguard the interests of Quebec. All this reminds me of an old trick people use to play. They would take a wallet that was ostensibly full of money and put it on the ground, attached to a fairly thin thread that would be practically invisible to the potential victim. Then they would squat behind a bush and wait. As soon as the victim saw the wallet he would try to pick it up, but every time, the other person would jerk the thread and pull the wallet away. This could go on for some time until there was no more thread left to pull or the victim realized what was going on or simply gave up. In fact, until the victim gave up chasing after something he would never be able to get.

This is like the Prime Minister's constitutional promises. This week it was obvious that he wanted to give the impression there was a nice package for us on the table while in fact, he has the proverbial thread which he can use to take the package back, if he wants to.

Furthermore, and this is an important point, Bill C-110 gives the federal government considerable latitude when it must define what constitutes the consent of a province. Of course, this was all planned by the federal government, because it wants to keep the latitude it needs to test the veto granted to a region. There are at least seven ways for a province to signify its consent or refusal to Ottawa.

It could be a resolution of the legislative assembly, an order in council, an order signed by a provincial minister, an order signed by a province's lieutenant-governor, a provincial referendum organised by a province, a federal referendum in one or several provinces, or a vote by the federal members of a given province.

It could easily be imagined that the federal government could hold a referendum in Quebec to get the province's agreement, sidestepping the government democratically elected by the people of Quebec.

On the other hand, the federal plan to give a veto to the regions is already meeting strong opposition on the part of some English provinces. For instance, Alberta is against this principle because it believes that all provinces are equal and, as such, it cannot accept not to have its own veto.

British Columbia is also opposed to the idea of a regional veto since, under the present formula, it does not have one. Moreover, Mr. Harcourt, the province's premier, believes that British Columbia should have its own veto since, in his opinion, it is a region in itself. We can see that this right of veto-as pointed out recently by columnists, observers, and Quebec political analysts-, and the vague and insipid principle of a distinct society are far less than what Quebec has always asked for. Some even say that there is a long way to go before meeting Quebec's historical demands.

I would even go so far as to say this is a real setback for Quebec. This is unacceptable. As soon as each region obtains a veto, and is therefore able to impact on the decisions of the federal government, this government is no longer in a position to entrench the principle of distinct society or the special veto for Quebec in the Constitution. The federal government will no longer be able to recognize these principles in the Canadian Constitution if the other regions obtain a veto on all federal actions and all constitutional amendments. The government therefore knows that it is guarding itself against any constitutional entrenchment of the very principles it is trying to sell us today.

At the individual level, on the subject of a veto for Quebec, there is evident dichotomy between public opinion in Quebec and in the rest of Canada.

A Gallup poll conducted November 8 to 13, where 1,005 persons were polled, showed that 66 per cent of Quebecers want Quebec to obtain a veto. On the other hand, only 10 per cent of the people polled in other provinces support that concept. In fact, 78 per cent of respondents in the prairies, 77 per cent in the Atlantic provinces, 70 per cent in British Columbia and 68 per cent in Ontario are opposed to it.

These data clearly show that, outside Quebec, the support for a Quebec veto is slight. This confirms that Quebec could easily lose its veto after a change of government at the federal level since any future federal government will certainly want to obtain the support of all Canadians and that will be at the expense of Quebec.

Finally, what can we say about this federal initiative launched in chaos and panic only a few weeks ago? As I have just said and explained, the Ottawa's proposals, meant to fulfil the promises the Prime Minister made to the Quebec people during the last referendum campaign, are nothing but smoke and mirrors. The truth is, we are facing a large scale camouflage operation whereby the federal government is trying, once again, to hide from the people the fact that it is unable to radically change the Canadian federal system.

Quebec has always had legitimate demands and aspirations within this system. But these demands and aspirations were never met. Realizing that, after the referendum on sovereignty, the demands would be higher than ever, the Canadian Prime Minister did not even try to find a solution to the problems plaguing the country he is heading. Instead he tried a bit of sleight of hand and gave us crumbs.

As I said, the Prime Minister is trying to put one over on us; he would have Quebecers believe that he is making a grand gesture towards Quebec, but what he does not say is that his grand gesture means absolutely nothing.

Not only is the Prime Minister's action totally meaningless, he is trying to make the population believe that he cannot do more in the area of pseudo-changes because the sovereignist government in Quebec would prevent him from going ahead with them in any case. For the federal government it is a way of blaming others for its problems.

The Prime Minister has taken great care to avoid saying that his proposal for amending the Canadian Constitution would meet with strong opposition, perhaps an even more so from some of the other Canadian provinces than from Quebec itself. Instead, he has blamed the sovereignist government, refusing to acknowledge-when the federal government is asking us to acknowledge the people's verdict-that the people of Quebec elected that government democratically and legitimately and-I would remind our colleagues opposite-they elected a majority of sovereignist members in this House as well.

Knowing that, how could we accept offers from the federal government that are so weak that they are light years away from the Meech Lake accord and from Charlottetown proposals, which also meant nothing or next to nothing.

How could we accept something that is even less than what Robert Bourassa himself never accepted? How could we ever claim to have the moral and political authority to put ourselves in a position of extreme weakness relative to the rest of Canada?

No, the Bloc Quebecois, which I am part of, will never agree to such a window dressing operation by the Canadian federal government. We will not be the accomplices of the Prime Minister of Canada in this senseless approach. The Bloc Quebecois will therefore vote against this bill, because it means absolutely nothing for Quebec. It is a meaningless bill and, furthermore, it does not provide any guarantee for the future, any guarantee for Quebec.

[Patrick Gagnon, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I am very happy to see that the opposition is not necessarily ready to recognize the people's verdict of October 30, because the other day, as you know full well, members of the Liberal opposition in Quebec asked the Quebec government and its Premier to respect, and above all to recognize, that verdict.

I find it strange that the PQ government refuses to recognize the fact that Quebecers have chosen to remain within the Canadian federation.

Having said that, I still have a few questions for him. For Quebec, the motion as tabled, the resolution in question, is aimed at regaining a veto that was abandoned by the former PQ government, the 1981 government of which the hon. member for Mercier was a member. I find it strange that they do not want to regain this veto that the PQ government forsook in 1981.

We are talking about change, about sincere change. The other day, opposition members accused us federal Liberals of dragging our feet. They said that they were still waiting. That the referendum was over. We have now come up with a serious proposal, which is obviously a step in the right direction, but I must tell you that if we are in favour of enshrining this veto, and especially Quebec's distinct society, in the Canadian Constitution, we are asking the provinces to invite the Canadian Parliament to entrench this concept, this Quebec reality, in the Canadian Constitution.

That is why we are asking the opposition to do the same thing, because the Leader of the Opposition, as we know full well, supported the concept of Quebec's distinct society not so long ago. Unfortunately, they are not ready to do so, and that is why we made a formal commitment not to enshrine anything in the Canadian Constitution without the support and consent of Quebecers, and above all of their National Assembly.

I urge the hon. member of the opposition to pressure his leader, who will likely become Premier of Quebec, into making a public commitment today in the House of Commons to tell Quebecers that he, too, will recognize Quebec as a distinct society and ask Parliament to ensure that this principle is entrenched in the Canadian Constitution.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Verchères, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for Bonaventure-Îles-de-la-Madeleine for his comments more than for his questions, since there were few questions in his comments.

I would say that we, of course, recognized the decision made by Quebecers on October 30, as evidenced by the fact that we are still sitting as members of this House and taking part in proceedings. We as Quebecers are still paying our taxes to this government and complying with federal laws and regulations. We therefore respect the decision made by the people of Quebec.

I would remind my esteemed colleague from Bonaventure-Îles-de-la-Madeleine that Quebecers simply rejected a proposal from the Quebec government. Their no vote does not mean that they are willing to accept just anything. Despite the claims made by our friends across the way, the no vote is no indication of Quebecers' attachment to Canada.

They simply rejected a proposal. That is all. One thing is for certain: by voting no, Quebecers did not indicate that they would be happy with any symbolic trifle like what the government is now trying to sell us. Accepting this kind of trifle does not imply a recognition of the decision made by Quebecers. Rather, it is the government that does not abide by their decision by trying to pull the wool over their eyes.

As for that famous right of veto, the government continues to try to fool us, to have Quebecers believe that at one time they had such a veto, that they could have used it but that the then premier of Quebec gave it up. The fact is that the Quebec premier of the time did not give up anything. The Supreme Court, that august assembly of Canadian judges, ruled that Quebec never had any veto. Therefore, we could not give up something we never had.

The government wants us to believe that this bill will re-introduce this vague notion of veto power that never really existed, as confirmed by the Supreme Court. In order to be valid, that power would have to be enshrined in the Constitution. However, this is not what is proposed in the bill, quite the contrary. The bill ensures that neither the concept of distinct society, nor Quebec's veto power will ever be entrenched in the Constitution since the other Canadian provinces, or regions as they are now called by the federal government, could use their own veto to oppose the entrenchment of these two basic concepts.

The member opposite should know that, traditionally, constitutional negotiations have always carried high expectations but invariably produced very little. Now, the government would have us believe that, for the first time in history, in spite of the current political situation, these meagre and minimalist proposals will ultimately turn into big and beautiful things for Quebec and the rest of Canada. It goes without saying that no one believes that except, of course, the hon. member for Bonaventure-Îles-de-la-Madeleine.

As for the concept of distinct society, the hon. member should know that Quebecers have reached the point where they will definitely not settle for anything less than their recognition as a nation. Quebec is a nation and wants to be recognized as such, and not merely by a vague and meaningless motion in this House.

As for accepting the results of the October 30 referendum, the hon. member should know that we could never-as indicated by the current leader of the opposition and future Quebec premier-accept less than Meech, which was rejected, and Charlottetown, which Quebecers rejected. What is being proposed now is not even close to Meech, and not even remotely close to Charlottetown.

[John Harvard, Liberal, Winnipeg—St. James, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I shed a tear for truth. From time to time in this chamber truth comes under great strain and I think this is one of those times.

Earlier in his speech the hon. member for Verchères described himself and other separatists in the province of Quebec as victims. They live in the country called Canada, one of the greatest countries in the world and he has the gall to say he is a victim. We have one of the greatest charters of rights and freedoms in the world and he says he is a victim. He stands in the highest court in

the land he spouts his separatism and his separatist complaints and he describes himself as a victim. Give me a break.

The member says that the ball is now in our court. Exactly and what is the Prime Minister doing? He made two specific promises in the referendum and he is acting on those promises right now.

The member says that Bill C-110 is a watered down approach. What was Meech Lake? Was it watered down? Was it acceptable to the separatists? No. What about Charlottetown? Was it watered down? Was it acceptable to the separatists in Quebec? I do not think so. Is there anything on the face of the earth that would be acceptable to the separatists in Quebec short of giving them a new country? The answer is no. He can answer the question, yes or no. If he wants to be honest he will say no.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Verchères, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for Winnipeg St. James for his question.

First, the hon. member would certainly do well to reread my speech tomorrow in Hansard , for I never claimed that we were victims. Quebec has gone far beyond that in its historical development. Quebec is not a victim, it is simply a people.

I did say that the ball is now in the federalist court-I hope he is listening in the foyer-the ball is in the federalist court, but the federalists should not keep the ball to themselves.

That being said, I would like to get back to his statement that separatists, as he calls them, were in disagreement with the Meech Lake accord and with the Charlottetown accord. First, it has to be said that if he goes over the history of this again and if he tries to remember the events that led up to the Meech Lake accord, he will realize that there are people who are sovereignists today who, at the time, were in favour of Meech.

The Leader of the Opposition is a fitting example. He was in favour of the Meech Lake accord. The hon. Leader of the Opposition was in favour of Meech.

The Meech Lake accord, which represented the most minimal conditions Quebec had ever put forward, having been rejected, how could we, the sovereignists, accept less that Meech with the Charlottetown accord?

Of course, to answer the hon. member's question, all of the sovereignists were against Charlottetown.

[Alfonso Gagliano, Liberal, Saint-Léonard, QC]

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

Before I hear the hon. member on a point of order, I just want to say that the word "dignified" was used and I am very pleased to see how dignified this debate in the House of Commons is.

The hon. secretary of State on a point of order.

[Alfonso Gagliano, Liberal, Saint-Léonard, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask, through the Chair, if there is unanimous consent to extend the sitting until 11 p.m. tonight, so that we can go on with this debate on Bill C-110.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

Is there unanimous consent?