Debates of Nov. 30th, 1995

Constitutional Amendments Act

[Some hon. members]

No.

[Alfonso Gagliano, Liberal, Secretary of State (Parliamentary Affairs) and Deputy Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, it was not possible to reach an agreement pursuant to Standing Orders 78(1) and 78(2) with respect to the proceedings at second reading of Bill C-110, An Act respecting constitutional amendments.

Therefore, I give notice that, at the next sitting of the House, pursuant to Standing Order 78(3), I will be moving a time allocation motion for the purpose of allotting a specified number of days or hours for the consideration and disposal of proceedings at that stage.

[David Anderson, Liberal, Minister of National Revenue]

Mr. Speaker, the series of motions and the legislation that is before us today essentially come down to three items: the issue of the regional veto, the distinct society and attempts to further improve the economy of the country with more devolution and reorganization of economic activity between the provinces and the federal government.

This all must be considered in light of the fact that in approximately 18 months a meeting between the provinces and the federal government will be required to consider the 15th anniversary of the 1982 agreements with respect to amendment and that must be borne in mind at all times. As described by the Minister of Justice, this is a bridge to the meeting which will take place 18 months hence. Those who would like to have the motion, the resolution and the economic measures expanded to something greater should recognize that.

Some of the suggestions I have heard, particularly from the Reform Party, would take over a year to implement. There would have to be a full discussion, meetings and the whole long rigmarole which we remember from Charlottetown. It should be understood

that this is not a substitute for the 1997 meeting which will be held between the provinces and the federal government.

I point out that the distinct society definition is quite limited. The wording has been very carefully chosen. It is that the House recognize that Quebec is a distinct society within Canada and that the House recognize that Quebec's distinct society includes its French speaking majority, its unique culture and its civil law tradition. These are important parts of the Canadian reality which are generally understood and accepted across the country. Wherever one may be in Canada it is well known that there are these three elements of Quebec society which distinguish that society from the societies of all other provinces and territories.

It is also important to recognize that Canada is not a homogeneous country. It is a country of many variations: regional variations, variations in its population, where it came from, how settlement has developed and how attitudes have developed. It is that diversity which we celebrate so often and which makes Canada one of the more unique countries of the world. It is an important part of the Canadian reality. It was that long before 1867.

We have to remember that diversity means there are differing needs and differing aspirations in the different regions of the country. Historically, provincial differences have dictated the need for different approaches. The British North America Act and the changes which were implemented in 1982 with the Constitution have made it perfectly clear that we have historically recognized those differences. If we go back beyond 1841 we will find that the differences within Canada have always been recognized in constitutional documents. It is one of the reasons so much of the country has been able to flourish. It is the reason for which we are the envy of the world.

Acknowledging Quebec as a distinct society is part of something perfectly logical and natural. It is not something which is being forced on any part of the country. It is a recognition of differences of which we have all known since our first days as Canadians. It is part of the evolution of Canada to recognize that distinctiveness and to make the accommodations which the bill and the resolution put forward. It is also a recognition of the affection and considerable pride which Canadians have in Quebec, which we saw in the few days before the referendum vote.

I would like to speak about the veto. These changes have not come completely out of the blue. They have been discussed before. Veto provisions were discussed at the time of the Victoria charter in 1971. Vetoes have been discussed at many constitutional conferences, in the press and elsewhere. In no way is this some sudden imposition of a formula which has been devised. It is a responsible recognition that over that long period of time certain basic understandings of the nature of the country have become evident with respect to the Constitution and the veto, particularly with respect to the 1982 changes.

Again I would stress that the current formulae for changing the Constitution are in four categories. You have some changes which would require the federal government and all the provinces before there could be a change. Others affect only a single province and the federal or perhaps even single provinces themselves and their neighbour. In addition you have this category which is the seven provinces and 50 per cent of the population.

All that is being put forward is that the federal government is limiting itself by legislation in the manner in which it will exercise the federal veto. It is not a constitutional change and that should be recognized. It is not a question of embarking on some great adventure as has been attempted by previous governments with Meech and Charlottetown where there were many things incorporated as well as the issue of the veto.

I will turn to the veto with respect to western Canada and in particular, with respect to British Columbia, my home province. At the present time for British Columbia to succeed it would have to impose a veto on constitutional change under the seven and fifty formula. It would have to have the support of three of the smaller provinces, so there would be four provinces opposing. In other words, the seven provinces requirement would not be met. Or else British Columbia would have to go in with one of the bigger provinces and thus, get 50 per cent of the population opposing.

The present proposal which does not change the Constitution is that if British Columbia opposed a constitutional change and it got one of the three western provinces to agree with it, then the federal government would not proceed with the constitutional change. Thus there is the so-called veto. The veto remains with the federal government but it would be exercised in that way. That is very important.

There is a substantial change proposed with respect to the powers of British Columbia on the veto. That is why I thought it appropriate that the headline in the newspaper pointed out that B.C. and Quebec were getting changes and the two provinces were listed side by side.

Second, when British Columbia gets to the position of having 50 per cent of the population of western Canada, then of course it will essentially have the veto of its own in the same manner as Quebec and Ontario.

At the present time British Columbia is about one-third the size of Ontario and about one-half the size of Quebec. In the not too distant future, because currently British Columbia has a about 44 per cent of the population of western Canada, it will reach 50 per cent; when, I do not know. All I know is that over the last 15 years British Columbia has dramatically expanded with an increase in population of something approaching 29 per cent. It is important to recognize that there has been substantial gains and this trajectory, this trend is likely to continue.

I will turn to the point that has been raised that this will somehow prevent future constitutional change because there will always be provinces which will oppose it. Obviously we will never

get constitutional change, for example, with respect to the Senate. To this I say I do not think we should sell future generations of Canadians so short. They will be capable of making intelligent decisions, just as we have been, just as our forefathers and mothers and all past generations have been.

Why do we have to suggest that they will be unable to handle the matter of constitutional change to take care of the differences that I spoke about at the outset of my speech in an acceptable manner? Obviously they will be able to do that and we should trust them to be able to do that.

Mr. Speaker, I am sharing my time with the hon. Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. This is a responsible package which will help hold us as a country together and allow that diversity and development and ability to continue to remain the world's leading country in the future.

We want a united Canada in British Columbia. We are willing to recognize that there have to be some trade-offs. Not everybody can get everything all the time. There has to be some recognition that to keep Canada going we cannot simply be a people who say no to everything.

When we have a whole country to govern there must be trade-offs. This country we are trying to govern happens to be the best country in the world. I think it is well worthwhile to make the trade-offs to keep it together and that is what this package is all about.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

Before proceeding to the five minute question allocation to the hon. minister, it is my duty pursuant to Standing Order 38 to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Jonquière-Committee chaired by Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs; the hon. member for Parry Sound-Muskoka-Confederation Life Insurance Company.

[Nic Leblanc, Bloc, Longueuil, QC]

Mr. Speaker, according to the minister of National Revenue, the veto will improve the Canadian economy and, since Canada has a highly diversified make-up, this diversity will also help to improve the Canadian economy. He never mentioned that the most important aspect of this diversity is that Canada is made up of two nations. They never say this. He did not mention it.

He also said that Canada is the best country in the world, that we are the envy of the world. I find it strange to still hear that today when Canada has an 11 per cent unemployment rate and when there are more people on welfare in Quebec than at any other time in the history of our country. This is beginning to sound strange.

He also said that the veto will help to amend the Constitution. I find that strange and utterly unacceptable since the more vetoes there are, the lesser the chance we have to amend the Constitution. To me, what the government is proposing and what the minister is saying all boil down to the fact that these numerous vetoes will mean that it will be impossible to amend the Constitution. It is as simple as that. This a trap that the federal government is setting for the Quebec government because, with this veto, it will be impossible to amend the Constitution.

Would the minister please tell me how these vetoes will make it easier to amend the Constitution? As you know, it is quite the opposite. I would like him to prove that.

[David Anderson, Liberal, Victoria, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the first point made was that somehow the veto was linked to the economy. Let me put it this way. The economy will benefit dramatically from getting the wrangling of constitutional issues such as the referendum and separation out of the way. The economy will improve when we deal with these measures here in the House quickly and get back to the real agenda for all Canadians, whether they live in Quebec, Ontario, British Columbia or any other province. We must get the economy back in shape, get interest rates down and get the unemployed that the member's party has never linked before to the issue of constitutional development. Fortunately you now have and I think it is about time that you recognized the linkage between the-

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

I just want to remind hon. members to make their interventions through the Chair. Sometimes it can be very helpful.

[David Anderson, Liberal, Victoria, BC]

Mr. Speaker, you will note that the hon. member for the first time is linking these constitutional issues with unemployment. It is about time the Bloc recognized that because it is very important.

The member goes on to say that there can be no change and vetoes will be there. Vetoes provinciate, he is right. Does he regret that we are giving or establishing a veto for Quebec so that the constant refrain that Quebec will be forced to accept changes from other parts of Canada will suddenly disappear as a complaint, a whine, a constant background noise that we hear from the Bloc Quebecois? Maybe that is the Bloc's concern. The issue is that if there are major changes the regions of the country, Quebec, Ontario, the maritimes, the west, or British Columbia do not want, then there is no point in proceeding with the changes because they are unacceptable to the overall.

Let us not get entirely hooked up on the issue of constitutional change. These are not constitutional measures. It is an example of the ingenuity of Canadians. It is an example of the ingenuity of the Prime Minister in overcoming problems without necessarily going back to the Constitution. If in the future people would like to see changes, administrative arrangements that would improve the system of government of Canada, I will bet that future generations of Canadians will be just as good as we are at arranging them outside as well as inside the Constitution.

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, it is a privilege to stand here today to enter this debate. As Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, I will start by repeating what the Prime Minister said yesterday vis-à-vis aboriginal people:

As it concerns the aboriginal people of Canada, my government is clearly on record as respecting their aspirations. We recognize the unique legal position of aboriginal people, including the protection of aboriginal and treaty rights in the Canadian Constitution and the inherent right of self-government.

What does that mean? It means we must listen, and I address the separatists, when Grand Chief Matthew Coon-Come of the Cree says that ideological separatists will not treat them like cattle, moving them from one territory to the other. We must listen when the Inuit vote 95 per cent no and when the Crees vote 96.3 per cent no, and when the Montagnais vote 99 per cent no. We will listen.

The Prime Minister has proposed that Quebec be a distinct society. He has proposed that we will make no constitutional change that affects Quebec without consent and he has delivered. I want to be here when the leader of the Bloc stands up and does not support this because it tells me his agenda is simple separation. It tells me that when he looks out his window to look at the French fact in Canada, the only thing he sees is his own reflection.

Maybe I am losing it. I sit here day after day and see the hon. member for Bourassa who is from Chile. He is a political refugee who has come to this country. Oddly enough, this country Canada is an Iroquois name that means the village. Quebec is a Micmac name which means where the water overflows. The hon. member for Bourassa sits here and he debates and thinks in a British institution whether he should be called by a Mohawk name or an Iroquois name, while taxpayers pay his salary. If he thinks long enough and gets re-elected he will get a pension. Only in this country Canada would we be that tolerant. What a democracy, but that is a fact.

Oddly enough, 15 years ago I gave my maiden speech in this House. I was sitting over there. The maiden speech is a member's most important speech. You come with your life experience and you want to say what is important to you. My maiden speech was about the French Canadian fact in Canada, their contribution to the national character of this country. I had come off the CRTC where I sat with Rhéal Therrien who was the vice-chairman then. He would say to me: "Ron, a country is not a piece of paper; it is a frame of mind".

It was so important to me to get my life experience on the record. As the member of Parliament for Sault Ste. Marie I spoke about the French Canadian fact in Canada. I spoke about the importance of biculturalism and multiculturalism. To that I would add the culture and the aspirations of the First Nations people of this country.

You see me every day fighting for aboriginal rights, but I fought just as hard for French Canadian rights because I come from a part of this country with 700,000 franco-Ontarians. You do not want to even seem to acknowledge that there are places-

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

Colleagues, order.

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

The Bloc does not want to even acknowledge that there are places like Dubreuilville, Chapleau, Timmins and Sudbury in Ontario where there are 700,000 francophones. What is going to happen to them? The Bloc does not care.

We have lived with these people for generations. They are our family. They are our neighbours. We share our schools with them. Bloc members do not care. I am convinced of that. They do not care about the Acadians. They do not care about the franco-Manitobans. They only care about their agenda.

Members of the Bloc talk about Cartier, Champlain and LaSalle. These are Canadian heroes and they are as important to my history as they are to any separatist. The Guy Lafleurs and the Cardinal Légers and the giant French Canadian community in industry and science and on the international stage. I remember them.

I remind the separatists that except for a few months, in 25 years, in a quarter of a century of leading this country, all of the Prime Ministers have been from Quebec. I remind the Bloc that we are the party of Laurier who cared about French Canadians in Quebec, who cared about French Canadians outside Quebec, who cared about Canada on the world stage. If Laurier were looking down today at the leader of the Bloc, he would weep.

I cannot say much more for the Reform members who thought Meech was too extensive. They opposed Charlottetown because it was too extensive. Today, I heard they cannot support this because it is a single page. I saw the way they voted on the aboriginal issues. I see how they treat the francophones here.

I was shocked when the Reform Party that wants us to sing "O Canada" in this House said that 50 per cent plus one on a faulty, fraudulent question divides and destroys this country. This generous, historical piece of property on this planet, and Reformers would destroy it with 50 per cent plus one. I used to find the

Reform interesting. I now think the Reform is dangerous if that is the philosophy its members are spreading across the country.

I do not know how I can convince the Bloc members. What they are destroying is the spirit of the French Canadians. These are the people who were at the foothills of the Rockies, who explored Hudson's Bay, who opened up the Mississippi.

I returned from Williams Lake, Alberta the day before yesterday. North of Williams Lake is the town of Quesnel, British Columbia. I just happened to be there. I remember this point from 15 years ago. Maybe it was part of the point I was going to speak on today. Who knows how the creator works. Fraser is the explorer who found the mighty Fraser. He got it named. He had a better publicist but those people, all nine of them, who paddled his canoe were French Canadians and the aboriginal people in that area showed him the way.

That is my Canada. That is my concept of who we are. It has been 15 years that I have been prepared to fight in my area of northern Ontario for the aspirations of francophone minorities until the very day I die. I am prepared to stay here and reaffirm my commitment.

When I vote personally on the resolution next week, I will not be doing it with timidity. I will not be doing it as the leader of the separatists say, because it is politically expedient. I will do it with pride because I believe it is important to my country.

There were 150,000 people who came to the Montreal rally. There were French Canadian federalists there. It is a misconception when we say that the people in Quebec are separatists. There are staunch French Canadian federalists in Quebec and they were at that rally, but we were there together. Why? To say that we love this country.

The leader of the separatist party mocks that love. He mocks it. He tries to destroy former Prime Minister Trudeau by mocking him. He tries every day by mockery to destroy our present Prime Minister. If Louis St. Laurent or Laurier were here today, the separatists would do the same thing. I see it every day. That is their agenda.

In my city of Sault Ste. Marie we had 2,000 steelworkers show up at an opening on a Friday or a Saturday. There were two days that went together. They took their hats off when we were singing the national anthem. It was amazing. I have never seen that. It was cold. The next day 1,000 people showed up in Sault Ste. Marie. They raised Canadians flags and Quebec flags. I looked down and saw young people there saying "We love you, we want you to stay". It was the first meeting for these little kids, and they looked at me and said "Do not destroy this country". That is my Canada.

The Haida people of B.C. have a creed. They say "We do not inherit this land from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children". That should be our creed.

My forefathers came from Italy and Ireland. They were very poor. From the Irish I learned that we have to pay something back. I am the fourth politician in my family. My grandfather Alfred was a councilor; my uncle Tom was a mayor; my uncle Fred was a councilor; I was a mayor. They said "You must pay something back".

From the Italian side, my grandmother, without even knowing the language, had to go from Rome by train, then by boat to Halifax all the way up to Sault Ste. Marie to meet my grandfather. She could not speak the language. She had eight kids. If she could be here and see today that her grandson is a member of Parliament she would be so proud. She taught me that this country is the best country in the world. It is.

I do not know if there is an afterlife. I hope there is. If there is, I am sure that Laurier, my grandmother, and my grandfather are up there saying "Go for it". That is what we should be doing.

[Nic Leblanc, Bloc, Longueuil, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I just want to comment briefly on what the Minister of Indian Affairs said.

First of all, there is something I do not understand although I have been here in Ottawa for a number of years. Why is the federal government using aboriginal peoples in many cases to discredit Quebecers? Perhaps he will admit it today, since only yesterday, his deputy minister admitted they would have to give aboriginal people in Quebec financial compensation for voting no.

I also remember that a few years ago, they used aboriginal people to file claims in New York, to prevent the Great Whale project from going ahead.

It is rather amazing to see the minister stroking aboriginal people today and trying to tell Quebecers that he loves them and wants to promote economic and social development, when meanwhile, the same minister is using aboriginal people to prevent Quebec from developing its hydro potential, for instance. Those are a few examples.

Of course, it is not easy to prove all that, but anyone who is the least bit intelligent and has an interest in economic development and politics is aware of this, and Quebecers are very much so. Aboriginal people were consistently used to obstruct megaprojects in Quebec, probably to promote other sources of energy like uranium or western oil. This is atrocious.

If the Minister of Indian Affairs thinks we can trust him, he is wrong. We have seen too much evidence to the contrary, and Quebecers are not easily fooled.

He referred to the people in Sault Ste. Marie, and I agree with what he said and I want to thank them. I suppose they wanted to apologize for what they did two or three years ago, when they trampled Quebec's flag. I imagine he remembers that. Of course these people wanted to apologize, and I understand that and appreciate it. We remember very well what happened. It was on all the tv channels. The people of Sault Ste. Marie trampled the Quebec flag two or three years ago. Today, they want to apologize. We are pleased that they did, and we appreciate the gesture. But people should stop trying to fool us.

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I would ask the hon. member to read my speeches and look at my record. I would not be here in the Prime Minister's cabinet if I in any way felt the way this member says I do.

Why are they worried about the separatists in Quebec? It is because you have a premier talking about "the ethnics". You have a vice-premier, and you know what he did. You have a member in the Quebec legislature who calls the aboriginal people gypsies. You have Max Gros-Louis, chief of the Hurons, who is saying the separatists are racist.

The separatists are living a lie. They say that Canada is divisible but not Quebec. That is a lie. There is such a thing as the 1898 line. There is such a thing as territorial integrity. There is such a thing as Cree territory, Mohawk territory, Abenakis territory, Micmac territory. Every time the separatists put that lie out, this minister is going to repeat what I said in Quebec at every house, at the UN and at Geneva.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

I must now resume debate. Having passed, I believe, the five hours of debate, we now go to the next stage of debate, which is ten minutes without questions or comments.

If I might ask the House for its co-operation, it is 5.23 p.m. and the hon. member for Calgary Southeast would be given a full ten minutes. I would not see the clock at 5.30 p.m. until three minutes past, so she would have her full ten minutes.

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Jan Brown, Reform, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the consent of the House on that suggestion.

The last thing I heard last night before I went to sleep was Jason Moscovitz on "The National" talking about the dreariness of this debate and how we were again looking at the discussion that had come up during Meech and the Charlottetown accord. There was a dreariness in all of this discussion because the House was mostly empty, the galleries were devoid of people, and there was no one around with any passion or enthusiasm to talk about the matter of Canada.

When I woke up this morning I thought I wanted to capture some of that in what I have to say today because I think it is important we remember what brought us here. I thought I would like to direct my comments from where I sit. Where I sit in the House of Commons is a very special place for me, because I have watched for two years the House of Commons work together, pull together when we needed to and have debates that were reasoned.

Over time something has happened. Now we have this rancorous, bitter exchange across the floor of the House of Commons. I wondered about that as I reflected on the throne speech of January 1994. I recall what the leader of the official opposition said that day about his responsibility as an opposition party: "We intend to take these responsibilities seriously and we will do so loyally, correctly, and with due resolve. We know that is what Quebecers expect us to do, and they would never forgive us if we deviated from this path".

Although that was a very tough foreshadowing of this debate today, I believe that what the hon. Leader of the Opposition was saying that day was that he wanted to work within a democratic environment for the good of his constituents and for the rest of Canada. His vision was one we should never forget to respect, because his vision is his own vision, as the Prime Minister's vision is his vision and the leadership of our party carries our vision.

None of us respect that. We have forgotten that we should co-operate and that our professional lives are within these walls. The rhetoric we hurl across the floor has become meaningless. No wonder everyone feels so embittered.

On that day the Prime Minister said: "By working co-operatively to create economic opportunity, by restoring common sense to our public finances, by rebuilding a sense of integrity in government, and by pursuing a positive and innovative agenda for our society, my ministers are convinced that Canadian unity will be preserved and enhanced". Where have we come from that day to today, when we are talking about constitutional amendments, constitutional veto, distinct society? He made a promise to Canadians two years ago that it would not be that way in the House of Commons.

Our leader, prior to the election, said on October 12, 1993: "I personally believe that the Canadian people have the capacity and the desire to define not only what this election should be about, but what kind of Canada they want for themselves and for their children for the 21st century. In other words, I believe it is possible for a new vision of Canada itself to emerge from the bottom up if we begin to truly let the people speak their hearts and minds".

We came here as a different party with a different vision. We never were told that the difference was a good thing; we were always told it was bad. No one could define that difference in terms of a new idea, a new vision, a different way of looking at this country. We were always told we were bad. We were poor performers in the House of Commons. The press gallery said that our ideas were poor. How could a bunch of hayseeds or rednecks from the west ever have a good idea to put forward? It was our vision and it should have been respected in that context, but it never was. Part of the reason it never was is why we are here today debating constitutional matters and distinct society.

I ask all members to remember why we are here. Our constituents sent us here. We have forgotten about that representation. We are not simply preparing for an election in 1997; we are renewing and retooling Canada for 2050. That is something we absolutely must not lose sight of in this debate, that we are retooling our vision for this country for the next millennium, for our children and for their children. We are really leaving them with one hell of a mess. Excuse my language.

The issue of unity does not reside in a unity committee, a small committee with a small number of people who have small ideas. Those ideas are going to capture the hearts and minds of the country if they go out to the people. It is the people of the country who are going to make the difference. They are the ones who drive the engine and the heart of Canada. We can sit here and debate this issue until we are all white with exhaustion and fatigue and we can be embittered. But I believe we have a country that is worth working together for.

It must be that westerners understand there is an opportunity to become involved in a debate, but so too must Quebecers and easterners recognize there is an opportunity for us all to debate. It should be taken out of the House of Commons and placed into the hands of the people of Canada.

Eugene Forsey wrote in his memoirs: "I have faith that Canadians, both English-speaking and French-speaking-would be able to face the future united-`One equal temper of heroic hearts -strong in will To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield'''. That is what we must do in the House. The bitter rhetoric we hear every day must give way at some point to argument that is reasoned, to ideas that are new, to a vision that will take us into the next millennium. My fear is that we are not moving in a direction whereby we are recognizing one another as colleagues and as Canadians.

The hon. member of the official opposition has become a very embittered politician. I have seen that over two years and from where I sit it is sad to see.

The Prime Minister, this man who had the hopes, hearts and tremendous support of Canadian people, has become shrivelled in his ideas, in his demeanour and in his approach to the country. We are back to this dreary Meech and Charlottetown debate.

I am not saying that the Reform Party has all the answers, but until we start talking together as Canadians even the best of visions will have no place to go but in its own entrenched little part of a balkanized country. It is my hope and prayer that will not happen.

I cannot support the bill because it would concentrate the power in the hands of governments and not of Canadians. I remember why I was put here by my electors in Calgary Southeast. It was to carry their hopes, their dreams and their visions for a Canada into the third millennium.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

It being 5.30 p.m. the House will now proceed to the consideration of Private Members' Business as listed on today's Order Paper.

The House resumed from October 26 consideration of the motion that Bill C-315, an act to complement the present laws of Canada that protect the privacy of individuals with respect to personal information about themselves obtained by certain corporations, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Protection Of Personal Information Obtained By Certain Corporations Act

[Jay Hill, Reform, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak in the House tonight on an issue of grave importance, the protection of personal information. I am pleased to participate in the debate on Bill C-315, an act that will help to protect the privacy of Canadians. Since Bill C-315 was last in the House much has happened on the issue. Several groups have called for federal government action to protect the personal information of Canadians.

First, the Canadian Standards Association has expanded on its voluntary privacy codes and its desire for implementation of those codes.

Second, the Public Interest Advocacy Centre based in Ottawa released a document entitled "Surveying Boundaries: Canadians and their Personal Information".

Third, the Information Advisory Council established by the Minister of Industry continues to push for recognition of its privacy recommendations.

The protection of personal information is a serious concern for all Canadians. If we do not begin to address the unauthorized collection and exchange of personal information about unsuspecting Canadians now, we may not be able to stop it at all in the future.

Bill C-315 gives us the opportunity to counter the invasion of personal privacy before it gets out of control. New technology and

universal access to the Internet have accelerated the problem and immediate government action is critical.

I quote from The Economist :

Individually, most new technologies are introduced for perfectly benign motives. Their cumulative effect, however, is to cast a shadow over personal privacy. Is it really acceptable for most of your actions, even the most mundane, to be recorded and then sold to the highest bidder? Most people take their privacy for granted but are outraged when it is breached.

The growth of computer technology makes tasks easier for Canadians, but at what cost? I am very concerned that Canadians have their privacy compromised every day without their knowledge. Companies routinely collect information about them every time they use a credit card, buy something over the phone or subscribe to a magazine.

An Industry Canada paper released in October 1994 stated:

While each technology brings different capabilities, they all contribute to a completely unprecedented capacity for the surveillance of every man, woman and child, whether as a customer, student, employee, patient, taxpayer, or recipient of government services. It is this growing trend for information systems to place limits on our freedom, on our life's potential, that privacy advocates and science fiction writers alike find utterly chilling.

Just what will Bill C-315 do? It specifically tries to curb the collection and exchange of personal information. This could include names and phone numbers, business addresses and phone numbers, any identifiable physical characteristic, religion, national or ethnic origin, age or other information about education or financial history. The information is recorded in many ways: electronically such as on a floppy or hard disk, manually on paper or microfilm, or virtually such as in computer memory or an electronic network.

Bill C-315 would require all companies covered by the Canada Labour Code to abide by some very strict privacy protection guidelines. Before selling any list containing an individual's personal information, the person would be sent a notice that, first, personal information about the individual as listed in the notice is held by the company; second, permission is needed to keep the person's name on the list; and, third, the person shall be told his or her name can be removed at any time at no cost.

In addition, any corporation using a purchased list shall send to everyone on the list a notice containing the source of the information, a description of the information held and a statement outlining how individuals can have their information removed. Companies receiving a removal request must comply within 10 days and confirm with the individuals that their requests have been acted on.

Non-compliance will result in a summary conviction. For a first offence a company or individual would face a fine of up to $5,000. A repeat offence could double the maximum fine to $10,000. Charges would have to be laid within one year of the offence.

The member for Cariboo-Chilcotin who introduced the bill would be amenable to increasing the sentences if the industry committee studying the bill believed that they are too weak. It might also look at strengthening the bill to prevent the rental of information lists.

In September the Canadian Standards Association released a set of privacy codes after wide consultation with several agencies and associations. It sought to develop its code at a time when there was growing debate about the range of innovative approaches to the protection of personal data on the information highway.

There is one big problem with the code. Adherence is strictly voluntary. While the code may be good, it is merely a band-aid solution and has no teeth to protect consumers from greedy companies with no regard for their personal privacy. By the association's own admission none of the codes has any explicit statutory force in contrast with the privacy codes developed under the mandate of legislation and the oversight of a data protection agency.

In addition, the association also admits that ultimately the success of the CSA model code will depend on the various incentives that might operate to encourage registration. Several are noted and discussed: moral suasion, the desire to avoid adverse publicity and the use of the privacy standard for competitive advantage.

Is this realistic? Companies that profit from a $300 million a year industry will hardly be overcome with moral suasion or a concern about adverse publicity. While the CSA code may convince some organizations to operate more responsibly, most organizations will only use it when it is convenient for them or if they must comply.

The CSA notes that in New Zealand and the Netherlands where privacy codes have been complemented by statutory regulation, there is more effective protection of their citizens. In Canada combining the CSA's code with the legislative teeth of Bill C-315 will provide consumers with real privacy protection.

The Public Interest Advocacy Centre is a non-profit group that is also focused on the protection of personal information. In a recent paper it investigated whether there is a problem. It found that 76 per cent of Canadians believe they have less control over their personal information than they did 10 years ago; 95 per cent of Canadians want to be informed about collection processes and about the uses to which their personal information may be put; 94 per cent insist permission be sought and given before any informa-

tion is passed on to another organization; and 86 per cent want to understand how new technology can affect their personal privacy. It is clear from the research done by the organization that Canadians are very concerned about their privacy.

Bill C-315 would establish statutory protection without the requirement for any new taxes. It is the missing link advocates are calling for. The member for Cariboo-Chilcotin has assured me he would support changes the industry committee might suggest when it examines the bill. We must act soon. Every day we dawdle, more personal information about private citizens will be collected and sold.

I conclude with a quote from a book called "A Consumer's Survival Guide to a Cashless World":

As consumers we often feel powerless to change the status quo, but public pressure can succeed when enough people get excited about practices they feel to be wrong or unfair. The only way it will change is for us as consumers and citizens to demand fuller disclosure, stronger privacy protections and better security procedures.

We can wait no longer. Consumers and citizens want and need to see changes to the rules that protect personal information. Bill C-315 is an answer to a concern that each and every member of Parliament shares with his or her constituents. I urge the House to support the bill so we can begin to protect the personal privacy of all Canadians.

[John Harvard, Liberal, Winnipeg—St. James, MB]

Mr. Speaker, when Bill C-315 was first debated in the House in the month of October I must say I was impressed with the information the hon. member brought to us in support of the proposed bill. I understand the original complaint brought to the hon. member for Cariboo-Chilcotin was from an individual who found himself on the mailing list for pornographic materials and was unable to stop the material from arriving. While this may not be the most damaging type of abuse of personal information, many Canadians would agree it is one of the most annoying and can leave people feeling helpless and frustrated.

The bill the hon. member has put forward, however, would do nothing to stop this kind of privacy invasion. While I share the concerns expressed by the Reform Party about this kind of abuse, if Parliament is to intervene with new legislation, we had better be sure we are doing something which actually fixes the problem.

Here are some of the flaws in Bill C-315. First, it would apply only to corporations. Many operators who do this kind of thing are individuals or small partnerships and would not be covered by the legislation.

Second, it applies only to the narrow range of corporations engaging in a federally regulated activity. This would include those in the banking, telecommunications and broadcast industries but not small entrepreneurs.

Third, it does nothing to solve the problem of operators setting up outside our jurisdiction, such as across the U.S. border.

Fourth, it addresses only the issue of people's names appearing on lists or nominative lists, as the practice is referred to in the Quebec privacy legislation that covers the private sector.

Technologies are changing and developing quickly these days. Information is being collected and messaged in new and different ways. It may soon be out of date to talk about lists because information travels easily and is gathered automatically. It is no longer necessary to hand someone a computer tape to trade information.

In addressing the protection of personal privacy we ought to talk about the use of personal information in the broadest possible ways. The rules we come up with should address every sector of the economy, not only the direct marketing industry.

Instead of working on the bill we should support the work that has been ongoing for several years at the Canadian Standards Association, the CSA. The consensus committee passed a model privacy code in September of this year, the result of three years of work in a committee with representation of industry, consumers and federal and provincial governments.

This code of fair information practices is soon to be published as a national standard for Canada. This initiative has the support of a broad range of private sector organizations including the Canadian Direct Marketing Association.

In fact, on October 3 of this year the president of the Canadian Direct Marketing Association called on the Minister of Industry to introduce legislation in the House that would use the CSA standard as the basis for legislation federally and to encourage the provinces of Canada to do the same in their jurisdictions.

I understand that the issue is being studied by the departments of industry and justice with a view to developing solutions that will work for the protection of personal information in all sectors of the economy and across the country. This is a huge and complex issue because the increasing availability and use of personal information and consumer profiles to target service delivery affects virtually every sector of the economy in some way or the other.

The protection of personal privacy was identified as a key priority early in 1994 when my colleague, the Minister of Industry, established the Information Highway Advisory Council to advise him how to make the most of the new possibilities brought to us by the communication networks. The council studied the issue,

consulted experts and produced a number of recommendations on privacy.

I will read them now. First, the federal government should act to ensure privacy protection on the information highway. This protection shall embody all principles of fair information practices contained in the Canadian Standards Association draft model code for the protection of personal information. To this end, the federal government should continue to participate in the development and implementation of effective national voluntary standards based on this model code.

Second, the federal government must take leadership in the implementation of these principles through the following actions: in co-operation with other levels of government that share responsibility for various sectors of activity on the information highway, it should establish a federal-provincial-territorial working group to implement the privacy principles in all jurisdictions.

It should create a level playing field for the protection of personal information on the information highway by developing and implementing a flexible legislative framework for both public and private sectors. Legislation would require sectors or organizations to meet the standard of the CSA model code, while allowing the flexibility to determine how they will refine their own codes.

In co-operation with the CSA working group on privacy, and other interested parties, it should study the development of effective oversight and enforcement mechanisms; establish a working group to co-ordinate the development, demonstration and application of privacy enhancing technologies for the provision of government services and information; update and harmonize appropriate privacy protection policies, legislation and guidelines applicable to its own operations and to the delivery of government services and information.

Third, Industry Canada should establish a working group that includes representation from the private, provincial and federal governments and consumer organizations for the purpose of increasing public awareness and understanding about privacy issues and personal privacy rights through the preparation and dissemination of educational materials and encourage the CSA to advance its privacy standard in international standards fora.

There are several other recommendations on encryption, educational and health records but I will not take up more time to read them. As members can plainly see, this is already a tall order that the advisory council for the information highway has presented to my colleague, the hon. Minister of Industry. I know the Department of Industry is engaged in discussions with other departments involved in the privacy issue, notably the Department of Justice.

This is a complex issue. Serious work has already been undertaken by the government to address the problem. I believe we should wait until the Minister of Industry has studied the recommendations and can report to us on progress.

Finally, we need more protection for personal information than is offered by Bill C-315. I say we should get on with the work and not take a detour down this path.

[Maurice Bernier, Bloc, Mégantic—Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am happy to participate in this debate on the bill tabled in this House by our colleague, the hon. member for Cariboo-Chilcotin, which is aimed at protecting the privacy of individuals with respect to personal information about themselves obtained from certain corporations.

This is a very important issue in the world in which we live, an issue that, too often, is not taken seriously but that has major consequences in people's lives.

It is no secret that just about any personal information is now available for all kinds of purposes to almost any individual or corporation wishing to obtain this information. In the business world, everyone knows that our personal credit records can be put under the microscope by all kinds of institutions interested in digging into our past. Everyone also knows that, more often than not, information on our lifestyles and consumption patterns falls into the hands of all kinds of individuals and corporations whose goals may be questionable, without most governments being concerned about it.

In this regard, I say right off the bat that although the bill tabled by our Reform colleague does not, as the hon. member for Winnipeg St. James just pointed out, meet all our expectations with respect to this problem, it places it in the public domain and urges the federal government, which so far has been negligent in this area, to examine the problem and, hopefully, come up with more restrictive legislation in the near future.

What I also like about our Reform colleague's initiative is that he refers to the Quebec legislation. In introducing his bill, he referred to the fact that, in 1994, Quebec enacted legislation to protect personal information not only from public institutions but also from private enterprise. This legislation was Bill 68, which, as I mentioned, was enacted in 1994.

I said earlier that Bill C-315 is quite commendable as far as its goals are concerned, but that it has flaws that should be pointed out. First of all, the bill refers to the sale of information. Any federally registered company wishing to sell information on a group of individuals would have to notify each of these individuals of its intention and of the personal information in its possession, and to

obtain his or her consent. Never can we in any way prevent companies from providing information or exchanging lists, provided the lists are not actually sold.

So, there is some kind of a loophole there that should be looked at and plugged if at all possible. There is also, as I said earlier, the requirement to send a notice concerning the sale of any list of individuals. But, even if this bill is passed, nothing will stop companies from selling information on one individual at a time.

These two examples show that there are deficiencies in the bill put forward by our friend from the Reform Party, deficiencies that must not be overlooked. As the hon. member from the Liberal Party suggested earlier, perhaps in a future bill we can take all of this into account and come up with ways to prevent this kind of problems.

Another point I wanted to raise is the small fines for non-compliance. The bill provides for fines of $5,000 to $10,000. I was listening to the hon. member from the Reform Party who spoke before me talk about the huge profits generated by the sale of this kind of information. It stands to reason that imposing such small fines is not likely to discourage companies from breaking the law. We should therefore make sure that fines are much larger, stiffer.

Another deficiency of this bill concerns the type of personal information covered by the act. A full list, a rather long list in fact, can be found in clause 2 of the bill. Again, it is not quite complete.

The problem in making a list is that you can forget to include major elements. I would like to point out that there is no mention, in this list, of political affiliation. I gather that this information is not considered personal in nature. Criminal record, work experience, place of birth, sexual orientation and mother tongue are not included or listed either in clause 2 of the bill, while I would think this information as strictly personal information that needs to be protected under a bill like this one.

To conclude, as I said at the outset, although the bill contains major deficiencies, it at least has the merit of being a first. It is a step in the right direction, as the first piece of legislation introduced by the federal government to protect personal information.

This debate is also an opportunity to alert the public to the real danger of not having legislation on the subject. In a way, as limited as its scope may be, it is difficult not to support this bill.

I would like to point out, since our colleague from the Reform Party referred to the Quebec legislation, that the latter is much more meaningful and precise. I would hope that when this act, if passed of course, is amended in the future, we should be able to refer to the Quebec legislation to ensure that personal information is better protected.

This goes to show, once again, if you do not mind my saying so without a trace of parochial spirit, that in many areas like this one, Quebec's know-how can easily be exported. People are welcome to refer to our legislation; they will not be disappointed.

I will close on this, just adding that the Bloc Quebecois supports the bill put forward by our colleague from the Reform Party.

[Raymond Bonin, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Mr. Speaker, while I agree with the spirit of Bill C-315, I am not in a position to support its content, which I find narrow and burdensome, particularly in consideration of the much broader and flexible measures presently being looked at.

Bill C-315 has a narrow focus when broad based measures are needed to ensure the level playing field for industry while protecting the privacy of Canadians. With advances in information and telecommunication technologies, the privacy of consumers is at risk, but this bill does not provide the type of broad based protection which is necessary.

As part of a global economy, we can expect that cross-border consumer transactions will increase and with them a related growth in direct to home sales of the type which make regular use of mailing lists in order to gain access into the homes of Canadians.

Mailing lists, when combined with other transaction related databases such as credit ratings and financial accounts, can be assembled into profiles of individuals. These records can cross national borders, be exchanged, resold, reused or integrated with other databases, often without consent or remuneration, for purposes unrelated to those for which the data were originally collected.

Consumers are frustrated and angry when subjected to perceived intrusions by commercial interests into their personal domain. Personal information privacy is an issue of considerable importance to Canadians as has been revealed by numerous surveys in recent years.

Bill C-315 has a very narrow focus. It applies only to the sale of lists containing personal information when in reality the normal business practice is the rental of such lists. The bill focuses narrowly on lists when in fact a vast amount of personal data can be blended and put together from the type of consumer transactional data currently exchanged between firms or within large organizations.

The bill only applies to federal corporations when in fact mailing lists and other information is often transferred between provincial corporations, individual proprietorships and partnerships.

If passed, the result would not be a level playing field of clear and consistent privacy rules applying to all sectors, but rather a patchwork quilt of uneven privacy obligations from sector to sector, firm to firm and jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

Other initiatives currently under way might provide a better approach. We are currently studying these options. Most notable is the Canadian Standards Association model privacy code. The CSA code sets out 10 principles governing how personal information should be collected, retained, kept up to date, used and disclosed by the private sector.

Adoption of the code by firms using mailing lists would tend to ensure that consumers are informed of the existence of such lists, given the opportunity to consent to their use and verify their accuracy.

The CSA code is voluntary, but I propose and support that it become the basis for flexible framework legislation. The Canadian Direct Marketing Association, the Information Highway Advisory Council and Canada's privacy commissioner all agree. The CSA model privacy code represents a potential basis for the development of flexible national standards.

I agree with the spirit of Bill C-315 and applaud the efforts of the hon. member in this regard. However, I am not in a position to support its contents as I find it too narrow, particularly in consideration of the much broader, flexible and less costly measures available to us.

I will continue to work to convince the government to introduce broad based and enforceable privacy protection for Canadians' personal and financial information in the marketplace. I feel that such legislation is important to my constituents. It is important to all Canadians. The legislation that we can accept must be enforceable, must have teeth and must apply to institutions like banks. It must also consider new technology like the Internet.

I believe that this bill is too narrow and does not create a comprehensive framework to deal with the real privacy concerns of all Canadians. I commend the hon. member for his efforts but I fear that his bill does not go far enough.

[Ronald J. Duhamel, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to President of the Treasury Board]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak on this bill. I must start off by saying that I applaud this initiative on the part of my colleague and can see the good intentions behind it. I do, however, also believe, having seen the criticisms of it, that it contains certain weaknesses which I would like to point out. At the same time, I would like to review the entire matter, propose some potential solutions, and point out why it will be very difficult to proceed with such a bill.

As I have said, this is a well intentioned bill but one with a number of weaknesses which have already been described by a number of my party colleagues and by at least one member of the opposition.

I believe that if we were to send this bill to committee and try to correct it we might lose some significant time trying to redirect an approach which some people would believe is too narrow to address all of the concerns Canadians continue to express about the protection of their privacy. That is not for me to decide by myself. Let me share with the House why.

Every time we open a newspaper we see another story about the abuse of personal information with the potential that new technology has to invade our privacy and provide surveillance of our every movement. Even the chairman of Microsoft, Bill Gates, in an article which appeared in the Ottawa Sun on September 20 of this year pointed out the need for government action and indeed legislation to protect privacy in the face of new technologies which he would be well placed to understand.

He used the example of software programs which would replace human travel agents and track customers' tastes and preferences to give the best possible service.

He states in the last two paragraphs of that article: "The marketplace may be able to resolve some of these issues. For example, customers may learn to avoid travel agencies that don't share personal profiles, or that share them too freely".

"But the marketplace won't resolve every privacy issue. Neither will technology. What's needed is a great deal of unrushed debate, leading to intelligent public policies".

I doubt that these new automated travel agents would be covered by Bill C-315 and we need to consider how serious a problem this might be.

I applaud the hon. member for bringing the issue of privacy protection to the attention of Parliament. I believe that he has done what he ought to do. I believe that we could follow Mr. Gates' advice and start a process of unrushed debate leading to intelligent, profound public discussion on a policy that will meet the needs of today's society, not necessarily by accepting this bill and fixing it but by building on the work that has been done in Canada where we have among other initiatives the first data protection legislation in North America to cover the private sector. I refer to Bill 68 in the province of Quebec.

We need a far more comprehensive approach to these problems. The government has been doing the groundwork necessary to provide greater privacy protection. I would like to talk a bit about

this work and about a better way perhaps to address the hon. member's concerns.

My first point is that the Canadian Standards Association model privacy code provides a basis for a broad based approach to privacy protection.

The Information Highway Advisory Council has recommended to the government that it bring in flexible framework legislation based on this code and that it work with the provinces to find a way to get a standard of fair information practices incorporated in the areas where it does not have jurisdiction.

On October 3 the Canadian Direct Marketing Association echoed this, calling on my colleague, the Minister of Industry, as minister responsible for consumer affairs, to table framework privacy legislation in the House of Commons. The CDMA has been a key player in the development of this national standard for the protection of privacy under the aegis of the Canadian Standards Association. I applaud not only its efforts in helping to develop this code but the leadership that it has shown in recognizing the merits of the legislation.

The House will recognize that it is not often that industry calls for more legislation. I think this action underlines the importance of privacy in the minds of consumers and the need for us to look at it carefully in all of its aspects. In particular, I believe that we must respect both the rights of the citizen and the information needs of industry when we think of legislation.

There are legitimate needs for personal information gathering in each sector. Banks need to gather information to assess credit risk, medical researchers need to conduct long term health studies to determine the effects of drugs, environmental concerns and health practices. Direct marketers do not want to send special offers for lawn mowers to folks who live in apartment buildings. Market research helps us as a society to tailor product innovations to the needs of consumers. These are good uses of personal information and we do not want to shut down the use of personal information.

Bill C-315 could shut down federally incorporated businesses doing direct marketing through the use of lists because while the bill speaks of obtaining the consent of each consumer, which sounds to be a reasonable enough option, the administrative burden and liability involved in this process would cause businesses to drop the activity altogether in a number of cases.

This may or may not be the goal of the hon. member but I believe both consumers and Canadian business deserve a more careful approach to the problem and one in which they can actually participate.

The Information Highway Advisory Council made a number of other recommendations concerning the protection of personal information, including the use of technologies which protect privacy. It called for the banning of scanning devices which monitor cellular transmissions. It called on the federal government to form a federal-provincial-territorial working group to start a dialogue about some of these important issues and work together for harmonized solutions. It called for the CSA to continue its work and for the consensus group which crafted the model privacy code to work together to develop meaningful oversight.

These are all thoughtful suggestions from a group of experts who took the time to study the issue in some significant depth. I believe that we should wait for the government response to these recommendations before we jump the gun and attempt to start legislating privacy protection.

As I come to the end of my remarks, I would like to share with the House a letter which was given to me that I think speaks to the issue. It is as follows:

Please share the following message with government MPs who will be speaking today on Bill C-315.

Members of the Canadian Direct Marketing Association agree that a legislated comprehensive set of privacy principles is needed to guide business in their activities to respect the rights of the individual. There is an excellent model to accomplish this in the 10 principles of the new code for the protection of personal information of the Canadian Standards Association.

The current bill before Parliament, Bill C-315, while formatted with the best of intentions, is so fundamentally flawed that it cannot be saved by any amendments. The bill would not accomplish the fundamental purpose of protecting personal privacy; would seriously limit an individuals' freedom of choice and would be an unnecessary and destructive interference in the marketplace.

CDMA is very concerned that if this bill is allowed to proceed to committee, the consensus among business, consumer groups and government which produced the CSA code after two years of hard work and compromise, will entirely collapse.

It is signed, John Gustavson, President and Chief Executive Officer.

It is up to the members now to decide how to proceed.

[Andy Mitchell, Liberal, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to speak to Bill C-315. I should begin my complimenting the hon. member for having put the bill before the House. I believe that its intent is good and that the idea of trying to protect consumers and ensure that the personal information we supply as individuals to corporations and other entities is not just used willy-nilly in whatever fashion somebody other than an individual may decide.

It no doubt is disconcerting for consumers to go to large institutions and buy a product or get a service of some sort and all of a sudden appearing in their mailboxes the next month, and oftentimes for the next decade, are solicitations of one sort or

another. Obviously consumers are not anxious to see that happen. They are not anxious to have that practice continue to the extent it obviously is. In that respect, I want to compliment the hon. member for putting together a private member's bill to deal with that.

The bill and the process of correcting the problem needs to go beyond the recommendations that are in front of us here today. We need to continue a process that has already been undertaken by the government. There is a consultative process that many of my colleagues have talked about previously in the House, where the industry department is working on this issue and in coming up with the solution is trying to be as comprehensive as possible to deal with this problem in a way that finds a good workable solution and finds a solution in a way that is not going to by itself create a burden for the consumer, is not going to create new government bureaucracy, is not going to result in a situation where adherence to the new rules will be so expensive that invariably and inevitably that kind of increased expense would be passed on to the consumer.

In reviewing the bill, there are a couple of places where I think we need to step back and ensure the problem is dealt with more comprehensively. As has been mentioned by a number of government speakers previously, one of the concerns with the bill in the format it is being presented to the House is that the definition of personal information is too narrow. We want to make sure that when we address the issue of privacy and confidentiality we do it in as broad a manner as possible and capture as many of the situations that are occurring out there as possible. We do not want to deal with this piecemeal, where we deal with one aspect of the problem and then have to come back and deal with others. We want to make sure that the definition of personal information is indeed as broad as possible.

We also want to make sure that in solving the problem we do not create a new problem. I know the hon. members of the third party would agree with me that the last thing we want to do is create a new regulatory regime, a new regulatory infrastructure that places an enormous burden on businesses. The way this bill is drawn up and the amount of consultation and notification that would have to take place when we are trying to delete specific information would create an enormous burden for individual businesses. There is probably a more efficient way to do it, a way that would not create quite as much of a workload and create such additional burdens on the private sector.

In coming up with the solution for the problem in this particular bill, it is going to call for a whole new amount of direct mailing as you ask for permission from the consumer to use their particular name. If the list is being sold then people have to write to the consumer and ask for their permission and then they have to write back. That seems like a very difficult and cumbersome type of situation.

There is a concern about capturing a very narrow portion of the market, those corporations that are federally incorporated. Obviously there are a lot of other entities that exchange and use information, right from an individual through partnerships, provincially incorporated entities.

It is important we ensure we have as broad a scope as possible in the bill. As I mentioned earlier, we have to ensure we address as vast a range as possible of consumer privacy concerns. I really believe we have to deal with this problem in as comprehensive a manner as we possibly can, making sure all of the issue is dealt with.

As I said in my opening remarks, obviously the intent of the bill, the desire to ensure consumer protection, is excellent. It is one the constituents in my riding of Parry Sound-Muskoka and I am sure all Canadians want to have addressed. They are genuinely concerned, particularly in these days of computerization. Information can be transferred electronically and in great amounts from one institution to another. They are concerned in that kind of environment that their privacy be protected.

As the hon. member who introduced the bill knows, it is important that the consumer receive protection in this respect. That is why I believe it is important to broaden this initiative. When we address the problem we must ensure that we address it in the fullest possible way. When we have done our work we must ensure we have covered as much ground as possible in order to protect the greatest number of consumers we possibly can.

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Oakville—Milton, ON]

Mr. Speaker, as we consider Bill C-315 we should review what the government is doing in this area.

Industry Canada and the Department of Justice are working on a comprehensive approach to privacy protection to respond to the recommendations of the information highway advisory council. For this reason, I do not want to support Bill C-315. I would rather wait until the Minister of Industry tables his response to the information highway advisory council.

Both that council and the Canadian Direct Marketing Association have called for comprehensive legislation based on the Canadian Standards Association's model privacy code. It seems to be more advisable to start from this consensual base and start the work that needs to be done to get broad-based support in the full community for action in this area.

I understand that the ministries of industry and justice are examining the recommendations I just mentioned. They are trying to come up with a broad based approach to the issue that both consumers and business would prefer. Any such approach would encompass existing voluntary efforts and the many excellent codes business has already put in place in a voluntary fashion. We should

take the time to allow this process to unfold and not start working on quick fixes to one problem after another.

This is not to underestimate the work of my hon. colleague who brought forward the legislation, but rather to pull the threads together of work that is being done in many areas of government on this issue. For example, my colleague, the hon. member for Nickel Belt, has also called for a national privacy law, building on the work of the Canadian Standards Association. He has also called for a working group to be struck to work on the drafting of such legislation, ensuring that it is enforceable and that there is an independent body for oversight. I commend his interest in this issue and I would suggest that we build on the work that is already going on in government.

Bill C-315 would require that an organization notify each individual on a mailing list each time that list is sold to another organization and ensure that the individual's consent has been received. In addition, it requires that the organization selling the list also notify that same individual that his or her name has been obtained. The legislation deals only with the sale of mailing lists.

Organizations would have 10 days to comply with requests from individuals to have their names or certain elements of information removed from the list. Fines for repeated offences could reach $20,000.

This legislation would affect the marketplace narrowly, in that it focuses only on personal information linked to mailing lists. It does not provide protection for personal information involving the vast majority of marketplace transactions.

The role of the federal government could be open to constitutional challenge, in that the regulation of personal information provided as part of a contract could be interpreted as a provincial responsibility. Quebec has already made such a claim in establishing privacy legislation applicable to all personal information gathered as a result of marketplace transactions.

A government infrastructure would be required to enforce the legislation. The sheer number of names contained in mailing lists suggests that there would be numerous complaints to be handled by the federal government. The resulting bureaucracy could be very costly.

Some have said this legislation is too narrowly focused to provide adequate protection of personal information. Lists are more commonly rented than sold today, and the legislation fails to address rentals. The legislation would be costly to enforce and cannot deal with nominative lists originating with organizations based outside of Canada.

A recommendation from the information highway advisory council on establishing framework privacy legislation is currently under consideration.

I know the minister does not support the passage of the bill at this stage, as he is hoping for a broader response to this very current issue that affects consumers. As a result, I am not going to be supporting this bill, although I would like to thank the hon. member for bringing this important issue forward to the front burner of our national agenda. I believe we should ask the Minister of Industry to report back to the House on the work that is in progress rather than cut short his efforts and those of the justice minister by starting fresh work in a new and more limited direction.