Debates of Dec. 1st, 1995

Indian Affairs

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, what I can guarantee is that in Quebec there will be a clear understanding that there is an 1898 line, that the northern two-thirds of Quebec was transferred to Quebec without the knowledge and consent of the aboriginal people.

What I will guarantee is that the people of Quebec and Canada will understand that there is a royal commission report. There is an opinion from Daniel Turp, which has been hidden by the Bloc, that states that the rights of the aboriginal people in Quebec are sovereign, that they are more important than even the rights of Europeans who came after they did. That is a fact that the separatists know and are hiding. They put a muzzle on their legal scholar who advised them of this.

What I will guarantee is that the voice of our Minister of Foreign Affairs will be heard in Quebec, as will the voices of the thousands of Canadians who came forward and said to Matthew Coon-Come and Zebedee Nungak and the Mohawk leaders: "We understand finally what you are saying and we are with you".

[André Caron, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

In that case, Mr. Speaker, will the minister give us formal assurances that, contrary to what his ADM suggested, his government did not and will not try to buy the First Nations' silence on their constitutional demands while Ottawa is making its so-called offers to Quebec?

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, the silence or the voice of the aboriginal people is not for sale. Matthew Coon-Come said during the referendum: "We are not Canada's Crees; we are not Quebec's Crees. We are Crees and we are not cattle to be moved around indiscriminately by ideological separatists at will".

Justice

[Jack Ramsay, Reform, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the federal-provincial financial agreements for the administration of justice expired over two and a half years ago. The Liberal justice minister has failed to renegotiate these agreements within that period.

I ask the justice minister: What is the status of these agreements? Are they in place and if not, why are they not?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, perhaps the hon. member would be good enough to tell me to which agreements he is referring. Is he referred to the firearms agreements? Is he referring to the cost

sharing agreements for young offenders or legal aid? If the hon. member would be more specific in his question, I have information I would be happy to share with him.

[Jack Ramsay, Reform, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, last week we asked the justice minister the same question. Of course the solicitor general responded by saying he would get back to us. He has not got back to us with the information. At that time we were quite specific on what we were referring to.

I will ask the justice minister about the alternative measures program. The program as defined under Bills C-37 and C-41 will place a tremendous financial challenge on the provinces which are tasked with the administration of the program. What financial agreements if any has the justice minister devised in co-operation with the provinces, or is he just going to ignore the cost of this legislation to the provinces and force this legislation on them together with the financial requirement?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, it is important that the hon. member refer specifically to the agreements he is asking about. There are many agreements between the federal government and the provinces by which we share the cost in the administration of justice.

The hon. member has now referred to one such program. I am proud to say that today happens to be the day when the provisions of Bill C-37 are proclaimed in force and come into effect across the country. The provisions make extremely important improvements to strengthen the Young Offenders Act, particularly in relation to violence.

As the solicitor general said in the House last week in response to the last question put by the hon. member on this subject, we are assembling detailed information for the member which we will give him in the coming days when it is ready. Many of the agreements which expired some 18 months or two years ago have since been renewed retroactively to the date of the expiry of the last set of agreements.

As always, we are continuing our efforts with the provinces to work toward a justice system that is properly financed, that works in co-ordination at the various levels of government and that serves the people of Canada.

Indian Affairs

[Maud Debien, Bloc, Laval East, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Indian Affairs.

The Kahnawake band council has passed a resolution to expel Peter Jacobs, a resident of the reserve, simply because he is not of Indian blood, discriminating against him on essentially ethnic grounds. Mr. Jacobs was adopted when he was three weeks old and has been living on the reserve for 40 years.

Does the minister support the decision made by the Kahnawake band council to expel Mr. Jacobs for ethnic reasons?

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, this is the same elitist strategy I heard during the referendum. This is back to blood quantum and the old Quebec. This is it again.

Let me talk about my experience in Kahnawake when I went there with Serge Ménard, David Cliche and the solicitor general. We could have walked in there in peace to sign a policing agreement but because there was so much animosity built up between the separatists and people at Kahnawake, the aerials were ripped off our cars. They jumped in our cars and tried to choke us. This tells me that the federal Liberals understand the aspirations of the Mohawk and are able to deal with them and that the path of elitism the separatists are going on will bring this country to destruction. These are the types of questions that are the strategies and policies of the separatist party.

[Maud Debien, Bloc, Laval East, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the minister has fiduciary obligations toward aboriginal people; he grants major subsidies to the various band councils. Therefore, he is duty-bound to take his responsibilities instead of throwing this kind of red herring at us.

Does the minister support the Kahnawake band council's decision and does he intend to take action to prevent Mr. Jacobs' expulsion, yes or no?

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, now that I understand more about the Mohawks, I think this type of question is a shame. They are Quebecers who are part of the city of Montreal. Once again the separatist party wants to get on blood purity which is where we are heading with this type of question-

[Jean H. Leroux, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Yes or no?

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Yes or no.

I would suggest that if the Reform wants to go in there-I mean the Bloc, I mix them up these days; it was a Freudian slip-it should go in and talk to them and not do as the Bloc critic has done which is to surreptitiously go from door to door in the Mohawk

community asking: "Are you happy? Do you have any guns?" He got kidnapped by the Mohawks until they found out who he was and then let him go.

Young Offenders Act

[Jay Hill, Reform, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, Bill C-37 which amended the Young Offenders Act did not go far enough. Canadians said it and Reform said it, but the justice minister went ahead with it anyway. Bill C-37 just received royal assent and the committee is already off on another mission to uncover the inadequacies of his improved act.

For years Canadians have been telling governments what is wrong with the YOA but governments will not listen. The minister did not listen to witnesses appearing before the committee last time. What assurance can he give them that he will listen this time?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member demonstrates on this issue as on so many others his preference for volume over analysis and his preference for rhetoric over reality.

Bill C-37 is an effective and insightful advance for the youth justice system in this country. It helps us to deal far more appropriately with violence among young people especially in the 16 and 17-year old age group.

At the time we introduced Bill C-37 we said that it was only a beginning and that more was required. We asked the justice committee, on which the member's colleagues sit along with members of our party, to undertake across Canada a comprehensive full analysis of the youth justice system to see how else it could be improved. That is the work in which the committee is engaged. It is important work and will result in recommendations to which we will pay attention.

If the hon. member thinks there is some better way to go about it, I would like to hear from him.

[Jay Hill, Reform, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the reason I might resort to volume from time to time is in the hope the message might get through to the minister.

The Minister of Justice has sent the justice committee packing. The committee is to cross the country seeking the opinions of Canadians on his new and improved Young Offenders Act. Will the justice minister commit today to the members of the standing committee, to all members of this House and more important, to all Canadians, that he will listen and pay attention to the recommendations of the committee, or will this be just another colossal waste of taxpayers' time and money?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member also demonstrates that he is unable to accept yes for an answer.

Had he spoken with members of his own party who were at the committee hearing when I addressed them two weeks ago, he would know that I told the committee that this is an open minded, no holds barred, top to bottom review of the youth justice system.

I have asked the committee members to speak to police officers, to parents, to school principals and to young people themselves. I have asked them to speak to the provinces to determine their experience with the Young Offenders Act and its administration and to return with recommendations for further change. That is the way the process works. That is the functioning of democracy. I urge the hon. member to take a responsible part in it.

Fight Against Aids

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health. Today is World AIDS Day. The epidemic, far from being under control, has reached unexpected proportions. From 1982 to 1995, 15,000 cases of AIDS were reported in Canada. Over the next five years, another 15,000 cases will be identified. In the meantime, the minister does nothing but make empty speeches and is incapable of pledging to maintain the national AIDS strategy.

Given the terrible ravages of that disease, how can the minister justify that she is contemplating saving $40.7 million per year, at the expense of people living with AIDS, by giving up the national AIDS strategy? Such a decision would be shameful.

[Diane Marleau, Liberal, Minister of Health]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member very well knows the answer to his question which is that HIV/AIDS and the battle against it remains a priority for this government.

Phase two of the strategy is scheduled to end in 1998. In the two years we have been here we have made dramatic cuts in every other program, but that is one program which has not been touched. We continue to spend $40.7 million a year on this strategy. That being said, we will continue to think of this as a priority, but we must reorganize the financing.

At this time we are working out the ways by which we can continue financing this very worthwhile initiative. We have at least until the next budget to announce exactly how we will reallocate funds to continue to support these very worthwhile programs.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the fact is that, in spite of the growing epidemic, the minister has not even managed to spend all the moneys allocated to her for the fight against AIDS. I ask her to rise in this House and

to promise on her honour to extend the strategy and to spend the funds allocated. This would be the best way for her to show solidarity with the victims, and I hope she will make that commitment.

[Diane Marleau, Liberal, Minister of Health]

Mr. Speaker, every dollar is spent very carefully. As you know, the mere fact that we have a dollar in our pocket does not mean that we should waste it. This is why the government invests in good programs.

Mr. Speaker, I can tell you that the hon. member will be pleased to hear that at least half a million dollars will be allocated to programs in Quebec, including one in his riding. The hon. member should be thankful, instead of attacking us.

Bankruptcy And Insolvency Act

[Reg Alcock, Liberal, Winnipeg South, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Industry.

Recently, Quebec's environment minister wrote to the federal Minister of the Environment suggesting amendments be made to the Bankruptcy and Insolvency Act to improve environmental protection. Can the minister tell me whether any action has been taken to prevent the dumping of contaminated buildings and worksites on local governments?

[John Manley, Liberal, Minister of Industry]

Mr. Speaker, last Friday I was very pleased to table a bill containing many amendments to the Bankruptcy and Insolvency Act, including ones that deal particularly with the issue the hon. member has mentioned.

This is the first time that the bankruptcy act has had provisions that have been intended to enable trustees in bankruptcy to take possession of assets that pose environmental risks.

We have given claims which stem from environmental damage priority over those of other creditors, both secured and unsecured, so that dealing with contaminated properties and properties that are adjacent to the property where the damage occurred and linked to the activity that caused the environmental damage will be able to be used as a priority claim in order to effect the clean-up. This will not only relieve some of the responsibility from local governments, but it will also ensure that trustees are willing to move in and take on some of these very difficult files.

Justice

[Bill Gilmour, Reform, Comox—Alberni, BC]

Mr. Speaker, recently the Minister of Justice said that the primary objective of his department was for a fair and responsive system of justice.

It is over a year and a half since I asked the minister to review the Patrick Kelly case. Over two years ago the key witness in the case admitted she lied during the trial. This witness's false testimony put Mr. Kelly, a former RCMP officer, behind bars.

We could very well have put an innocent man in prison for the past 14 years. Now this witness, presently in the U.S., refuses to testify further.

What is the minister's department doing to ensure the interviews with this witness are completed in order that a section 690 review in the Kelly case can proceed?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I am grateful to the hon. member for his question, for his continuing interest in this case which I know is genuine, and for his interest in the administration of justice.

Throughout the past months I have been advised by independent counsel that I retained to help me with the assessment of this case. That independent counsel working with lawyers for the applicant, Mr. Kelly, and the witness have participated in interviews. There have been three attendances for that purpose.

I believe the work with that witness has now been virtually completed. I am awaiting a final report and recommendations from the independent counsel. I am keenly aware that time has past since the application has been brought, but I will publish with the eventual disposition of the case a chronology of the developments so that the member and everybody else can see for themselves how this case has been dealt with. I will of course take responsibility for that.