House of Commons Hansard #270 of the 35th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was troops.

Topics

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Kingston and the Islands Ontario

Liberal

Peter Milliken LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, I am absolutely astounded at the hon. member's suggestions. I know my colleagues in the Reform Party, who have been weak kneed today, agree with me at least in respect of the hon. member who just spoke, who has made these outrageous suggestions that somehow the government is at fault for not explaining its policies.

I sat here this morning and heard the Minister of National Defence make the most lucid remarks explaining the government's position and saying what he felt the government's obligation was. He laid it out for all members of the House to hear. The hon. parliamentary secretary made a speech that was a model of clarity and brilliance. Yet the opposition has sought to obfuscate on this matter.

The hon. member who just spoke will not tell us his party's views. As we said, the whole purpose of the debate is to hear the views of all hon. members so the government can reach a decision based on the views of members of the House.

The hon. member who just spoke did not explain the official opposition's views. I am surprised that he did not clearly explain them when he answered the question put to him by my colleague, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence. Instead, he attacked the hon. member who asked the question. I cannot understand this.

He said that the hon. member did not know what he was talking about, that the government was not coming clean with the House and the government had an obligation to lead and decide and make all the decisions. Yes, it does, and the government will make the decision on Wednesday. The Minister of National Defence indicated that ever so clearly in his remarks this morning. Obviously it has gone right over the heads of hon. members opposite.

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Bloc

Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Verchères, QC

May I answer?

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Liberal

Peter Milliken Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

The hon. member will get a chance to respond. I am looking forward to his response, but I would like him to answer some questions. Will he tell us how much money he thinks we should spend on this mission, how long we should stay, how many troops we should commit? Tell us the answers to those questions. The government will listen to the hon. member and make a decision accordingly.

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3:40 p.m.

Bloc

Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Verchères, QC

Mr. Speaker, it is amazing to see our government colleagues claim that they want a non-partisan debate while they turn it into a truly partisan debate through their speeches, questions and comments following our speeches.

In my speech, I clearly indicated how many troops-

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3:40 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh.

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3:40 p.m.

Bloc

Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Verchères, QC

If you listened, you might understand my answer. Pay attention to what I am telling you.

How many troops should we send? I mentioned that. How long should they stay? I mentioned that. How much should it cost? I mentioned that too.

I do not know if the member for Kingston and the Islands was peacefully resting on his desk during my speech, but, obviously, he did not listen to anything I said.

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3:40 p.m.

An hon. member

This is not the first time, it is always like that.

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Liberal

George Proud Liberal Hillsborough, PE

Mr. Speaker, I just arrived. Certainly it is a great way to start off one's debate on this very important matter.

I heard people across the way saying that the government should make a decision on this thing. I suppose if the government had made a decision on it, then we would have been doing the wrong thing and should have had the debate in the first place. As I understood, this was the object of the exercise, to have a debate. At the end of the day, with the feelings of the House of Commons made known, the government will make a decision as to our participation in the former Yugoslavia.

It is a pleasure for me to take part in this debate today because I am one of the people who believe that Parliament should take part in these debates and decisions that are being made in this type of operation to send our troops to foreign countries. This is something we have said in this place for the seven years I have been here, that these debates should take place. By and large that is what happened since our party came into power in 1993.

I have no doubt, and I do not think many have, in what should happen to our role in the peace process in the former Yugoslavia. Peace in the region has been a long time coming, but it has finally arrived. I am glad to say that with the participation of the implementation force with Canada peace will be maintained.

Some hon. members from across the floor, as well as some other Canadians, have questioned the role we have played in the former Yugoslavia to date and have even questioned if we should be there at all.

As I have said before, I believe we were needed then and, more important, we are needed now more than ever. The conflict that ended with the agreement reached in Dayton, Ohio contained many atrocities the global community should never have witnessed and hopefully will never witness again.

To ensure this Canada must continue its tradition of peacekeeping and participate in the implementation force. We must help maintain the fragile peace that has been maintained.

International involvement is a benefit to everyone. The world is a complex community. States are interrelated in many ways, economically, politically and socially.

Conflict breeds conflict and we must do all we can to prevent conflicts from occurring and end the ones that already exist. Better relations among nations carry a benefit shared by all. Peace operations are a major part of this philosophy.

All of us know Canada has a long distinguished tradition of peacekeeping. We all like to trot out the name of the hon. Lester B. Pearson. He was the man who invented it.

Our forces are not strangers to international missions, and we all speak about that. We are all so proud of that. Only a select few such as Canada have taken a lead in peacekeeping. Since 1947 more than 100,000 Canadians have served abroad in over 30 peacekeeping and related operations.

This is unmatched by our allies. We have recently paid homage to the 103 Canadian soldiers who gave their lives in these missions. Unfortunately I doubt they will be the last, but this is a risk we must take.

We are acting for a greater goal. International peace and security do not come without a price. The end of the cold war was celebrated by many, but little did we realize that such a vacuum would bring about so many regional conflicts. The importance of joint intervention has increased tremendously over the last number of years.

As a result international organizations, primarily United Nations, have become more involved in interest state disputes, having to toil with human rights and humanitarian issues on a far greater scale than ever before.

The potential for peace is there and Canada must do its part to achieve it. Without international co-operation how can we expect world peace to become a reality? We are not magicians and we cannot pull a white dove out of a black hat. We, as a member of the industrialized world, must accept reality and participate in the fight for peace. Canada long ago accepted this fact.

Not only are we members of numerous international organizations, we have continually participated in every United Nations peacekeeping operation. It is our duty to continue to play our role in this way.

As everyone knows, the nature of peacekeeping missions has changed dramatically since they were first established. From unarmed observers of peace agreements in the early years of peacekeeping, they have since taken on stronger roles of armed enforcers of peace agreements. It was a slow transition until recently. Since the end of the cold war international missions have been given much tougher mandates. In some cases, such as Bosnia, they were not wanted, they were not respect and they were even used as human shields.

Yes, much has change since 1947. Generally we speak of peacekeeping in general terms, but peacekeeping has not always been peacekeeping in the true sense of the word. Missions have been used to contain the conflict and maintain the surrounding peace, to actually make peace or to enforce the peace once it had been reached.

The signing of the peace agreement with the formal peace accord to be signed on December 14 has stopped the fighting and the conflict in the former Yugoslavia. Peace has been made. Canadian personnel were there and will be there to assist humanitarian operations.

We were not there to keep the peace earlier because there was no peace. Now that peace has been reached as part of IFOR, we will be there to keep the peace, hence that is where peacekeeping comes from.

Although the mission will be a NATO led enforcement mission and not a peacekeeping mission in the traditional sense, to me it is still very much a peacekeeping mission. There will be peace to be kept.

Already we have heard some members focus on the specific role our men and women should play in IFOR. Before I add my views on these matters I will talk about the process of determining our role. Let us have no doubt that the Canadian government will have the final say on all rules of engagement used by Canadian forces.

To me there is little question that we should participate in IFOR, but how many, for how long and in what capacity is up for debate. The Minister of National Defence has consulted our allies on what is still needed for this force. What other countries have already committed will also determine what we will say.

There are many ways we can participate and contribute to the implementation force. There is a multitude of military tasks within the mission, all of which I will not dwell on given the amount of time I have, but I would like to mention a few.

Recently we heard the hon. member for Saanich-Gulf Islands suggest we send an air squadron rather than land forces. All of the air power required is needed from other countries. We have always had troops on the ground to cover the front line. Our troops should be there. Our troops have much to offer in enforcing the ceasefire, enforcing the demilitarization zones to defend persons, property or areas designated as protected, and so on.

Do not get me wrong, that should not end our contribution. Besides having our infantry we should contribute in areas of logistical, medical and air support.

The parameters of the implementation force appear to be quite broad and they are not just to keep the peace but in co-operation with civilian assistance to help rebuild the region. War has devastating effects on people, their communities and countries.

The former Yugoslavia has much to rebuild. The capital city, Sarajevo, where just 10 short years ago the Olympic Games were held, is in ruin. Canada should participate in the non-military operations as well. Getting the region rebuilt quickly will diffuse many grudges held and allow countries to withdraw their forces sooner rather than later.

We all know Canada is proud of its troops, for they are among the best in the world. We should give them a symbol of that admiration. To my colleagues on all sides of the House I say yes to the implementation force, yes to sending our troops and yes to giving them the recognition they need when it is over.

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3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Jean H. Leroux Bloc Shefford, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate the member for Hillsborough for his speech describing what the Canadian Armed Forces have done over the years. It is true their peacekeeping activity has been quite extraordinary. However, Canadians, people in my riding who elected me and who expect me to ask the appropriate questions here in this House when it is necessary, are wondering what to think now.

They wonder if Canada can still afford the operations it is conducting all over the world, at a time when we are cutting welfare benefits, at a time when we are asking a bigger sacrifice from all Canadians and all Quebecers. That is the question we should ask ourselves.

Can we still afford such measures? If our means are limited, why not be content with limited involvement, instead of always claiming that we are out to save the world?

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Liberal

Douglas Young Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Take limited action, like the separatists.

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Bloc

Jean H. Leroux Bloc Shefford, QC

This has nothing to do with separatism. The minister is just babbling away.

Why seek to do great things, at a great cost, when we know very well that we cannot afford them? Let us be modest. That is what Canadians and Quebecers will ask: that we be modest in the decisions we make now.

Yes, we must go, to honour our commitments to NATO. But let us participate according to our means. This really has to be said.

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3:55 p.m.

Liberal

George Proud Liberal Hillsborough, PE

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for the lecture. It is tough when money is not available to do certain things but if we do not work to maintain peace in the world we will not have the luxury of social programs or anything else.

Conflict has the ability to spread throughout the world. That is why we are in the NATO alliance. That is why we are members of the United Nations. That is why we have participated actively over the last 50 years to ensure the world is a better place. Even with all the problems, Canada has played its role and should continue to pay its role. I do not believe peace has a price.

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3:55 p.m.

Reform

Jim Hart Reform Okanagan—Similkameen—Merritt, BC

Mr. Speaker, what we are dealing with is an escalation of the traditional peacekeeping, as the hon. member has pointed out, in which Canada has proudly participated since the Suez crisis of 1956.

This is a new level of readiness, a combat situation. NATO is clearly asking Canada for combat troops. The U.S. has said NATO wants land forces and the U.S. president has said it is willing to accept casualties in this higher level of participation.

The hon. member spoke about Canada always being there, always able to be there. In the 1960s we had a force of some 120,000. In just a few short years we will be down to a force of some 60,000 but the commitments have increased over time.

I quote from the defence minister's white paper of a few months ago: "Canada cannot and need not participate in every multilateral operation. Our resources are finite and we may not agree with the purpose or the organization of a given mission".

How many Canadian soldiers have to be sacrificed so that the Canadian government can continue on this course?

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3:55 p.m.

Liberal

George Proud Liberal Hillsborough, PE

Mr. Speaker, I am sure the Canadian government does not want to sacrifice any Canadian soldiers. As I said, over a period of years our forces have become smaller but we have participated and I believe we have to participate.

We have talked many times about the situation in the former Yugoslavia. Last year and the year before we were told we could not do what we will be able to do this time. If our soldiers find themselves in troublesome situations they can use force to get out of them.

That is what we are saying. I am not suggesting for a minute we want to sacrifice our soldiers. I believe this will be as safe a mission as it can be. There is a chance of soldiers being injured in any mission. That is life. Every man and woman who joins the Canadian forces or any other force knows that.

We are not doing this to put Canadian soldiers at risk. We are doing it to maintain the peace accord which has been signed and to stop these terrible atrocities from continuing. I believe that Canada and all Canadians will be proud to participate in such a force.

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4 p.m.

Liberal

Robert Bertrand Liberal Pontiac—Gatineau—Labelle, QC

Mr. Speaker, it is an honour and a privilege for me to rise this afternoon.

Peacekeeping missions took a new turn in the 1990s. In order to meet the new challenges of global security in the next century, we need a United Nations Organization and other international organizations that are able to play a more efficient role in conflict resolution.

The extent and complexity of contemporary peacekeeping missions call for the UN to ask regional organizations to play a greater role in conflict resolution.

The role of NATO in this effort is an excellent example of the co-operation that is possible between international organizations.

The UN is the ideal tool for giving legitimacy to an international peace mission and NATO is the organization best equipped for carrying out a mission in Europe, especially one that could call for the use of force. But the UN still needs to be changed.

Created in the 1940s, the organization must get the tools necessary for facing the challenges of global security in this century and those to come. The UN record since the end of the cold war is quite impressive for the most part. Missions in El Salvador, Cambodia, Mozambique and Haiti have produced sound results. But failures in Africa and the former Yugoslavia have raised some doubts.

Unfortunately, many member states put all the problems of the world on the UN's shoulders, which is very unfair. Member states must stop criticizing and start doing their bit. Canada is well aware of the UN's problems, but our government is determined to find solutions.

Given our experience and expertise in all aspects of peacekeeping and the new ideas we propose, we are in a unique position to help the UN. Canada helps to improve UN peacekeeping missions in different ways, such as offering expertise at UN headquarters in New York and establishing the Lester B. Pearson training centre for peacekeeping at Cornwallis, Nova Scotia.

As Canadians, we can offer pragmatic and feasible ideas to prepare the UN for the future. Last September, for example, Canada submitted to the General Assembly the results of a study to improve the UN's capacity to respond in times of crisis. Events in Rwanda showed that simple measures can settle a crisis before it is completely out of control.

The Canadian study recommends concrete changes at all levels of the UN system to ensure that such measures can be implemented quickly and effectively. These changes would be cost effective and their implementation would not require any reform to the present UN charter.

The studies clear recommendation is its proposal to create a multi-national, multi-disciplinary headquarters planning cell, comprised of military and civilian personnel from member states. This planning cell, which would operate under the authority of the security council and the strategic direction of the Secretary-General, would fill an enormous vacuum in the UN system.

It would be responsible for planning and preparing for rapid deployment of a multi-functional standby force of up to 5,000 military and civilian personnel. This force would be deployed for a brief period either to meet an immediate crisis or to anticipate the arrival of follow-on forces or a more traditional peacekeeping operation.

For this vanguard concept to work, this rapid reaction force, the UN standby arrangement system would need to be enhanced so that all the essential components of the force, either military or civilian, could be identified well in advance.

The authority to deploy personnel would still require a UN resolution as well as the consent of each participating government. So far the response to our study from other member states has been encouraging. We look forward to building on this initiative in the months ahead.

In conclusion, while the international environment is becoming even more complex, it is no surprise that peacekeeping has followed suit. As new security threats continue to emerge, Canada and other members of the international community must not let up their efforts to discover new and innovative approaches to peacekeeping.

Whatever the challenges are, Canada's commitment to this useful conflict resolution tool should remain steadfast.

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4:05 p.m.

Reform

Jim Hart Reform Okanagan—Similkameen—Merritt, BC

Mr. Speaker, the Reform Party has been saying today that this debate is a lot of smoke and mirrors because we will not have the opportunity to vote on this issue.

The argument that we are putting forward is that the government has already made a decision and has committed to sending troops.

I was wondering if the hon. member could comment on the most recent Canadian Press report from just a few minutes ago. It states: "A NATO official has said that Canada has committed a headquarters brigade and a battalion to IFOR". This would mean a participation in the neighbourhood of anywhere between 1,200 and 1,500 people. What does the member have to say?

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4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Robert Bertrand Liberal Pontiac—Gatineau—Labelle, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member opposite for his question. What he just said, however, is not quite true. Absolutely nothing has been decided. Members of the third party have not yet revealed any of their views concerning the force to be deployed in the former Yugoslavia.

I have been here for nearly an hour, but I have still not heard any real suggestions from the third party. I will remain in the House a little longer to see if they offer any positive suggestions.

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4:05 p.m.

Bloc

Jean H. Leroux Bloc Shefford, QC

Mr. Speaker, following the speech by the hon. member opposite, I would like to share some of my thoughts about what is going on.

The government is asking us to agree to send troops under NATO command, but it is being vague about it. This is what makes it difficult. It is difficult for us to take a position, because we do not know how much that will cost, how long the mission will last and what responsibilities will be given to our troops.

It is therefore very difficult for the opposition to decide. We, in the Bloc, are in agreement with that. We agree but, as I said earlier, restraint has to be used, and my hon. colleague just said something similar. So we agree on this. However, we will not know, before this debate comes to an end, how much all this will cost. In other words, the government is asking us to give it a blank cheque. I would like the hon. member's reaction to that.

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4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Robert Bertrand Liberal Pontiac—Gatineau—Labelle, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for Shefford for his question. We are here to listen to what the official opposition has to say.

Let me repeat what I told the member of the third party. I did not hear any suggestion from that party as to the size and the duration of our involvement. I will stay in the House for a while, and I look

forward to hearing members in the official opposition at least tell us what they think about that.

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4:10 p.m.

Reform

Jack Ramsay Reform Crowfoot, AB

Mr. Speaker, I would like to get a very clear and definitive answer to the question that my colleague just asked the hon. member. Has Canada already committed troops to this UN initiative? Yes or no.

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4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Robert Bertrand Liberal Pontiac—Gatineau—Labelle, QC

Mr. Speaker, what is clear is that there has been a commitment from Canada to participate. There has been no clear commitment on the number of forces and other things to be committed.

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4:10 p.m.

Reform

Jim Hart Reform Okanagan—Similkameen—Merritt, BC

Mr. Speaker, I rise on behalf of the people of Okanagan-Similkameen-Merritt to participate in the debate today on an issue of national importance, the NATO mandate to commit a peace implementation force to Bosnia.

The Reform Party supports international peacekeeping commitments and takes pride in the work that our armed forces have done worldwide. They have a reputation of being the best peacekeepers in the world and this reputation is well deserved.

From Korea, Cambodia, the Golan Heights, Bosnia, Somalia and Rwanda Canadians have been there and have done the job asked of them with honour, dignity and determination. They have performed above and even beyond the call of duty.

Nothing serves to show the dedication and bravery of our troops better than the rescue mission of a Romanian freighter sinking in a storm off the Atlantic coast this past weekend. A master corporal with the support of his colleagues rescued the crew in a 30-year-old helicopter despite the odds and the shortcomings of this antiquated vehicle. This helicopter lacks sufficient range, forcing the frigate to close in tightly to the distressed ship and the master corporal and his colleagues are true Canadian heroes.

Since the end of the cold war peacekeeping has changed dramatically. We have left the era of classic peacekeeping to a new era of active peace enforcing. In response to this change the Liberal government has increased Canada's peacekeeping commitments.

However, the Liberals have done this without a coherent policy. They have increased our commitment while decreasing significantly the resources they are willing to allocate to the Department of National Defence and military personnel.

This must be considered before we can determine what kind of force Canada is able to contribute to IFOR. We must also have a clear set of conditions before we commit our armed forces to a task such as this.

Reform Party members have developed such a clear set of conditions that we would like followed before committing our troops on peacekeeping and peace enforcing missions. The Reform Party's conditions are: one, all peacekeeping missions must be approved in advance by Parliament, including a proposed budget; two, the belligerents must signify their genuine willingness to settle their conflict peacefully; three, the mandate, duration and rules of engagement must be specified and adequate command and control must be in place, sufficient resources must be available to do the job; four, Canada must be included in any diplomatic negotiations; five, rules governing troop rotation must be established and adhered to.

As it stands right now the Liberal government has not been forthcoming with information to determine whether these conditions are being met.

Today we are debating the issue of contributing to the NATO peace enforcing mission in Bosnia. However, this is only a take note debate. Parliament will make no decisions here today. The government has already made the decision.

The United States has made it known that Canada is contributing between 1,200 and 1,500 troops. Twenty-two Canadians were sent to Bosnia on Saturday with other NATO forces to begin the preparations for the main NATO force. The Canadian people had no voice in this decision.

Canadians will not know whether the belligerents are genuine about peace until they sign a formal agreement scheduled for December 14. This is not a done deal. The leader of the Bosnian Serbs has already served notice that he is not happy with the accord and he has warned of bloodshed over Sarajevo.

While supporting all peace efforts in Bosnia, I have a number of military concerns this government must take into consideration before sending our troops to Bosnia. Before we make a commitment to IFOR we must first assess whether our land forces have the personnel, the equipment, and the resources necessary to contribute to the IFOR mission; second, whether our land forces are facing a morale problem; and third, whether questions on leadership raised by the Somalia inquiry should be addressed prior to a deployment of this nature.

For the past 25 years the Canadian Armed Forces have been abused politically and financially by governments to the point where our forces are in disarray. They are quickly becoming ineffective in taking on missions asked of them by the government. This is not an indictment of our military personnel who shoulder the burden of these commitments, but it is a condemnation of successive governments that have failed to provide effective leadership and resources to the Department of National Defence. Our armed forces are at the edge not of technology or effectiveness, but at the edge of survival as a fighting force.

The 1995 budget of the Liberal government has cut the defence budget to the point of calling into question whether our land forces are capable of sustaining any combat role. To the Minister of Finance I say that there is a point at which armed forces must be funded to remain viable. We have hit that point. Yet the Department of National Defence is bracing itself for more cuts at a time when our government finally is calling on them to do a job they should have been equipped to do in the first place.

No other country has neglected its armed forces as much as Canada. In the early 1960s our armed forces totalled over 120,000. Today the Liberal government is reducing that number to some 60,000. Yet the demand on our armed forces has remained the same. And the demand on our military personnel will only increase as the new world order unfolds.

Our whole army is approximately 23,000 people, which is smaller than the metropolitan Toronto police force. In fact we could take the whole army and march it into B.C. Place Stadium to watch a football game and there would still be room for thousands of additional spectators.

In addition, our armed forces have been almost demilitarized. The government has trained and equipped our land forces for classical peacekeeping based on lightly armed troops. Leaders are being taught the wrong lessons, which could result in a disaster when faced with a serious combat situation. This is at a time when classical peacekeeping is required less and less.

Peacekeeping missions are now peace enforcing missions, requiring the skills and equipment our government has neglected. The Liberals have based their security policy on peacekeeping alone, at the expense of our combat readiness and conventional capabilities.

Being trained and equipped to act as a peacekeeping force is a far cry from stepping into a conventional combat role. This is what the Liberals are asking of our land forces today. Due to the Liberal government's procrastination, our 30-year old armoured personnel carriers will not be replaced until 1997. The land forces lack critical support infrastructure such as logistics and medical.

I would like to quote from a recent study by the Conference of Defence Associations. They state:

-the Armed Forces are in fact a facade, or a three-dimensional chess board, in which many pieces are missing from the main board, and almost none exist at all on the lower supporting boards.

If the Liberals send our land forces on this IFOR combat mission to Bosnia, we may be asking our land forces to pay the price for the lack of government leadership they have had. No wonder morale in the Canadian Armed Forces is at its all time low. The Minister of National Defence in his rhetoric blames the low morale on the Reform Party. However, the attack on our armed forces by the Liberal government is responsible for the low morale. This in turn has its own cost on operational ability in our land forces. For the past three years they have been forced to rotate 3,000 personnel on UN missions every six months. To many, this may not sound like very much. Many states can field such a force without difficulty. But because of the size of our modest land forces, successive rotations of 3,000 troops is a significant burden.

In fact it is a burden that normal training, which is imperative before any mission, has ground to a halt. Our land forces have been forced to scramble to be able to put together the personnel and the units to fulfil the commitments the government has obliged them to do.

Sadly, the Minister of National Defence blames again, of course, the Reform Party, the only party that is looking out for the interests of our troops, for the problems of his own making. The minister is responsible for the morale problems and should not pass the buck in this cowardly manner.

The morale problem is well documented. For example, an August 1995 chaplains' report states that we are seriously taxing the morale necessary to remain a competent force. It states that rapid successions of deployments requiring the members to continually be away from their families must be balanced with adequate time at home. Stress levels are at all time high, resulting in breakdown of the family and other serious problems.

I am gravely concerned that the government will commit a significant number of our land forces personnel to Bosnia without taking the morale issue of the rotation of our troops into consideration. We cannot rely on land forces reserves to take up the slack. We need them to help the regulars maintain operational strength during their UN tours. While this was occurring, the Minister of National Defence announced the number of militia reserves was being cut by some 6,000.

The rapid succession of deployments is not the only factor that is reducing morale and operational effectiveness. The Somalia inquiry has raised a number of questions regarding the leadership of our forces as well. The leadership problems have been documented extensively by senior officers in the Canadian forces. For example, one report last March states that there is a grave lack of confidence in the senior defence hierarchy among the rank and file. The report states that there is a widespread belief in the Canadian Armed Forces that political agendas and careerism have replaced leadership in the defence hierarchy. The report discusses the perception among soldiers that the loyalty and focus of senior officers is directed upwards, and not downwards to the rank and file. It criticizes how leaders appear hypersensitive to human rights and political correctness at the expense of building the warrior ethic in soldiers. The report states that soldiers perceive that their interests

and welfare are being sacrificed so that senior leaders can be successful in delivering the same bang for the buck.

It is ill advised for the government to consider sending combat troops to Bosnia, given the seriousness of this problem and the fact that the Somalia inquiry investigating the chain of command will not issue a report and recommendations until June 1996.

The government should seriously consider the current state of land forces before committing them to this combat mission. I stress this is not the classical peacekeeping to which Canadians have become accustomed, nor are our land forces trained and equipped. Our whole land force has spent the last three years training for peacekeeping deployments. They lack the equipment and the resources. Morale is low and there are questions about leadership that must be addressed. This is not the time to send them on a mission for which they are ill prepared.

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4:25 p.m.

Parkdale—High Park Ontario

Liberal

Jesse Flis LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Foreign Affairs

Mr. Speaker, I am really disappointed that the third party had a golden opportunity to really put its policies forward and boost the morale of our forces at all three service levels, really make an input, really make a significant contribution nationally and internationally, and what do they do? They talk about Somalia. They talk about all other issues except the motion that is on the table. The official opposition at least gave us some figures. They said our commitment should be up to 2,000 troops, et cetera. I wish they would have gone on more specifically, what kind and so on. But the third party has not given the government one constructive suggestion.

On one hand, they complain that the government has already made up its mind. It has not. Cabinet is not meeting until Wednesday. They read something in the newspapers. It is like the budget: someone reads something in the newspapers and they call it a budget leak. That is what they are comparing this to. Forget about what is in the newspapers. Give the government constructive suggestions and concrete ideas. This is their golden opportunity, and they are blowing it.

They praise our peacekeepers and then in all their debates what do they do? They bring the morale right down as low as they can get it. If I were out there fighting, I certainly would not listen to what they were saying. That really would depress me.

I have always respected the hon. member for having good ideas. I am wondering if in the time left he would share them with us. What is it he would like cabinet to consider? What are the options? Do we participate at all? If so, how many troops? Two thousand troops? What kind? Should we forget about that altogether and go on the human rights side on other issues?

Let us hear it. This is their golden opportunity and they are blowing it.

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4:25 p.m.

Reform

Jim Hart Reform Okanagan—Similkameen—Merritt, BC

Thank you very much for that disjointed odd question.

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4:25 p.m.

Reform

Jay Hill Reform Prince George—Peace River, BC

Babblelogue.