Debates of Feb. 14th, 1995

Transfer Payments

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, today, two weeks before budget day, the Minister of Finance is meeting his provincial counterparts. They will probably discuss further reductions in transfer payments to the provinces for social programs financing.

If I understood correctly what the Prime Minister said to the leader of the Reform Party just now, the government is really determined to offload its debt problems on the backs of the provinces, since he just told the leader of the Reform Party that a transfer of responsibility for post-secondary education, health and social assistance would not entail a concomitant transfer of tax points to the provinces. That is what we understood from the Prime Minister's reply.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, if the provinces asks us to stop paying, we will be glad to oblige.

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I certainly did not expect an answer like that to a serious question, but I will control myself for your sake.

Can the Prime Minister promise, and this is a serious matter, that the measures in the upcoming budget will not constitute an outright offloading of the government's responsibilities on the backs of the provinces? This is walking away from responsibility. It is not decentralization.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, every day, the hon. member rises in the House to ask us to cut spending. If we cut spending, we cut. If he tells us to cut spending and transfer the money, we are back to square one. We are going to cut a lot of spending and we are going to try to achieve our objectives, and we will. We will do what it takes.

Discussions are being held with the provinces. We will try to reach an agreement the best way we can. Yesterday, Premier Wells said: stop sending us money for our forests. I am not going to argue with Mr. Wells. If he does not want money for his forests, we will not send him any.

Gun Control

[Jay Hill, Reform, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, under the justice minister's gun control legislation tabled earlier today hundreds of thousands of firearms legally acquired by law-abiding citizens will now be effectively confiscated.

How does the minister justify his government's confiscation of private property?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member's question is fundamentally flawed. There is nothing in the bill that confiscates firearms.

The bill is intended to enhance criminal sanctions, to crack down on the criminal misuse of guns and to achieve the sort of control any reasonable society wants to ensure public safety.

[Jay Hill, Reform, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I contend that the justice minister's plan is fundamentally flawed. Under his plan these individuals will only be allowed to transfer their guns to the crown, to the police or to a few authorized businesses that are licensed to acquire prohibited firearms.

Could the justice minister tell the thousands of responsible gun owners who now own these guns if they are going to get a fair price, considering he has drastically reduced the market?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, in the first instance I am proud to say that the government has introduced today legislation that will be easily accepted by the vast majority of Canadians.

May I observe as well that the centre point of the plan that involves registration of all firearms has recently been reported to have the support of two out of three Albertans among others.

Last, may I draw the hon. member's attention to the bill we tabled today that makes clear those who own and possess prohibited firearms may continue to buy and sell among their own class so that their investment in those firearms is preserved.

[Pierrette Venne, Bloc, Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice.

In her report on her investigation of firearms, coroner Anne-Marie David recommends to the Minister of Justice that shipments of arms stored and transported by importers be covered by specific legislation.

In view of the fact that, in Quebec alone, 1,502 imported revolvers and pistols were reported stolen in 1992 and 1993, how can the Minister of Justice claim to be tabling a bill that responds to needs, when he ignored the recommendation of coroner Anne-Marie David?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I am disappointed in the hon. member's attitude toward this bill. On November 30, when we tabled our program, she found fault with it because we had no bill. Now that we have a bill, the hon. member is still not offering any constructive criticism. The hon. member knows full well that most Canadians, and Quebecers in particular, support these proposals.

I would suggest that if the hon. member has suggestions to make in committee to improve the bill that she do so, but that she stand today in this House with the majority of Canadians in favour of this bill instead of making individual criticisms when overall it meets the safety needs of Canadians.

[Pierrette Venne, Bloc, Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, given the official opposition's criticism when his plan of action was unveiled in December, does the Minister of Justice still plan to allow the owners of the 13,000 automatic weapons registered in Canada, including 4,000 AK-47s, to keep them legally for the rest of their lives?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, according to the bill that was tabled today, all such paramilitary weapons will be prohibited.

They will be out of circulation at the end of the lives of those who now own them.

In the meantime, so that we do not "confiscate", to use the word of the hon. member from another province, they will be permitted to trade them, buy them and sell them among members of that same class. However, at the end of the day, in keeping with the policies and principles of the bill, those firearms will be out of circulation.

[Jack Ramsay, Reform, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice.

On December 1, 1994 one of my colleagues who was concerned about the detrimental effect the ban of .32 and .22 calibre handguns would have on the world cup shooting competitors who have trained at great expense and proudly represented this country, asked the minister this question: "Will the minister make a commitment to remove the .32 calibre handgun from this list of banned firearms?" The minister's response: "I most certainly will not". I ask the minister, what made him change his mind?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the .32 calibre handguns along with .25 calibre handguns will be prohibited by this legislation.

What we have made clear is that the unique firearm, used for example by Linda Thom in earning a gold medal at the 1984 Olympics, which is a .32-.22 interchangeable barrel Walther handgun, will be permitted.

Today we made clear that as we refer this bill to committee after second reading in this House, we are asking the committee to identify other handguns that are used in competitions sanctioned by the International Shooting Union so that legitimate competitions can continue.

[Jack Ramsay, Reform, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I might advise the minister that the Liberal Party of Alberta opposes his proposal.

Nevertheless, inasmuch as the justice minister has changed his mind regarding the banning of handguns used in competitive shooting, what other areas of legislation is the minister prepared to change?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I hope it is evident not only to the hon. member but to everyone in this House and in the country that notwithstanding changes as reflected in the bill introduced today, the one thing that remains is our commitment to the principles of this policy.

Speaking of commitment to principles, the hon. member is a member of a party which prides itself as the law and order party in the House of Commons. I would like that party to explain why it opposes legislation which has the support of the police and the victims groups of this country.

Manpower Training

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister. The tenors of the federal government keep on repeating that we can make federalism more flexible without reforming the constitution, and that administrative agreements could suffice to settle the issue.

If the Prime Minister wants us to take him seriously, before the referendum, why has he refused to grant Quebec's requests regarding job training, and for the sake of efficiency, to finally acknowledge the consensus in Quebec?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we made the provincial government some offers on this issue several months ago. We could not grant all of their requests, and as the minister responsible for federal-provincial relations said, half a loaf of bread is better than none, and yet, they refused.

I know very well that she would remain a separatist even if we resolved the workforce issue. The question that should be asked in the referendum is: "Do you want to separate from Canada?" That is the question, and Quebecers will reply: "We want to stay in Canada, we do not want anything to do with the separatists".

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I detect in the Prime Minister's answer that he is interested in foiling the separatists, to the detriment of the unemployed, who are in need of job training.

Will the Prime Minister confirm that his government never planned to transfer responsibility for job training to Quebec, but on the contrary, that he intends to increase intervention in this area through his social program reforms, financing that intervention even more, perhaps even with surpluses from the unemployment insurance fund?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to see flexible separatists, because in this case, she is asking to change the Canadian constitution. She is no longer talking about separation. So she is going to have to make up her mind eventually.

Fisheries

[Francis Leblanc, Liberal, Cape Breton Highlands—Canso, NS]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans.

At the most recent meeting of the Northwest Atlantic Fisheries Organization, Canada won a critical vote to protect and share 60 per cent of the total allowable catch for Greenland halibut. Now the European Union is threatening to ignore this internationally respected conservation body and launch a formal objection. What does Canada intend to do in the face of this challenge?

[Brian Tobin, Liberal, Minister of Fisheries and Oceans]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question.

Indeed the fishermen of Canada were pleased when Canada was assigned by the Northwest Atlantic Fisheries Organization-

[The Speaker]

Colleagues, I would ask you please to respect both the questions and the answers. I am sure we want to hear both the questions and the answers and everything else which transpires here in the House. The hon. Minister of Fisheries and Oceans.

[Brian Tobin, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

Mr. Speaker, a noisy House is particularly difficult for quiet-spoken members like me.

Canadian fishermen indeed were pleased to receive from the Northwest Atlantic Fisheries Organization 60 per cent of the turbot quota at the meeting in Brussels. They thought it appropriate that the Spanish fleet fishing under the EU flag received an appropriate level of allocation, in this case 13 per cent.

We want to work with the European Union to see this conservation plan put in place in a responsible fashion. The Department of Foreign Affairs has taken the lead in making Canada's view known.

We have heard reports that the EU may object to the NAFO decision and set unilateral quotas. That is not acceptable to Canada. The last time the EU set unilateral quotas they destroyed flatfish stocks and northern cod. Canada will not stand by and see more stocks destroyed.

Canadian Airborne Regiment

[Jack Frazer, Reform, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of National Defence.

How many of the men who appeared in the August 1992 video and how many who appeared in the February 1993 video are still serving with the airborne regiment?